INIT915

Can you in ALL your years in the EMS field tell us how many people died because of inadequate EMS response to any size disaster in Westchester County?????

Well, without knowing any details, as clearly no one else here seems to either, I will not be second guessing the PPD officers. They are a very active agency, who see their fair-share of activity, and I have no reason to suspect they handled this situation with anything other then the utmost level of professionalism.
Anyone who works in Peekskill/Cortlandt/Buchanan knows the Dabbs/Brown crew on a first name basis...

I think the fence will be an immense help. Not so much for jumpers, as already mentioned, they will still find a way. Rather, when the bridge finally hits it's breaking point and crumbles/collapses, it will give motorists something to cling to while awaiting rescue.

Ok That's it! Can't you guys in Northern Westchester get a crew together to eat your own shrimp? I mean this is a "simple dinner" and you have to call for mutual aid? Geez- You guys spend all that money on big shiny kitchens with all the latest pots and pans, and then you can't assemble enough guys within your own department to eat one meal by yourselves? I say it's time for consolidation of all meals eaten and promoted to the masses. Take shrimp night, the Buchanan clambake and the Verplanck feast and hold it all on one night in one place so as not to duplicate services within such a small region. It seams like every year you guys have to call in mutual aid just to finish YOUR meal! The commissioners must be turning a blind eye to this. If you had a just one full shift of career shrimp-eaters in place when the dinner bell rang, I can guarantee that every last shrimp would be eaten. Don't forget the two-in two-out rule as there is only room for two at a time in the bathroom.

I think the fence will be an immense help. Not so much for jumpers, as already mentioned, they will still find a way. Rather, when the bridge finally hits it's breaking point and crumbles/collapses, it will give motorists something to cling to while awaiting rescue.

That's it..... breathe......let the anger out.
I am reminded of the joke about the woman who when asked if she would sleep with the town drunk for a million dollars said, 'I guess so.' and at 50 dollars showed outrage saying, 'What do you think I am?' The reply was "We have established what you are m'am, we were trying to determine the degree."
Compensation is relative. Whether we do it for $10-$25 an hour or all you can eat shrimp once a year..... we are all underpaid and perhaps we can agree that probably makes us all idiots, just a matter of degree.
I meant no disrespect to paid service, [which I am 60 hrs a week], and if you found it in my post I apologize sincerely. I never said nor meant to imply that paid service lacks compassion. Some days I do not sense the enthusiasm, which you quite adequately addressed in your first paragraph.
In life, in EMS, it is not only where the path takes you, but how you choose to walk it.

We need to find some common ground here. Volunteers aren't holding anyone back, and speed is relative. Overworked paid systems have long response times as do rural areas.[ In most of the Adirondacks you will almost never get a medic and an ambulance will be coming from 20 miles away to take you to a hospital farther away than that.] And I see in the volunteer EMTs that I work with an enthusiasm and dedication to patient care that is too often lacking in paid services. Volunteers are there because they want to be, and it shows. I just wish they wanted to be there more often.
Paid systems are minimally staffed, so when it gets really busy they have extended response times, too. Volunteers, or those managing them need to step up on the hard issues. Sacrifice requires.... sacrifice. Volunteer EMS agencies have to set minimum standards and meet them. That may mean mandatory rostering in station and/or supplementing with paid staffing.
A distinction that needs to be made is that individuals VOLUNTEER, agencies by and large do NOT. I believe all agencies [locally] are funded by some combination of municipal funding and billing. Either through taxes or billing a patient is seeing the cost of running an EMS system. The money is there. How is it spent? One view is that spending money on ridiculously expensive ambulances with all the bells and whistles, fancy jackets, awards and steak and shrimp dinners will bring in and keep volunteers. If that is working, great. If it isn't, then consider the agencies that bill and use that money to supplement volunteer availability.
Volunteerism is fantastic. We do not need to get rid of volunteers; we need to make it possible for people to volunteer at the same time that we provide consistent, timely, EMS service. Billing was a hard pill to swallow for volunteers, but we got over it. Supplemental staffing or mandatory rostering is just as hard. We need to get over that, too.

We're all human, and there isn't a single Medic, EMT, CFR, Driver or Attendant - paid or volunteer - that doesn't have their grumpy moments. I've had them, I've seen others have them, and I have heard people have them on the radio.
None of us should preach this or that when it comes to "professionalism," because we've all been guilty of our human moments where we let what we are truly thinking out.
Cops waiting on EMS know this.
Firemen waiting on EMS know this.
Dispatchers paging our over and over again know this.
And all of you EMS people know this.
So let's get over ourselves and stop acting better then anyone else. We have to provide the best care with the most professional attitude we can. If this means mixing it up and doing duty crews, chopping dead wood members, hiring people, firing people, WHATEVER - then by God put aside your feelings and do what is needed to provide the best service you can to those that depend on it.
Our calls may not seem like an emergency to us, but the person calling has their reasons for calling. Whether they're in pain, they're sick, they're afraid or they just plain need our help with something, we have to be as respectful as we can.
I always used to think to myself that every elederly person was someone's Grandparent and that someone loves them no matter their flaws.
I'm done... just my perspective as a "retired" EMT. Enjoy the weekend!

Just so we're clear..... read my entire sentence. "Who knows who's right, and who cares?". As in, "who cares who's right?", not "who cares about response times". Honestly, it's great to engage in honest discourse over the topics of the day, including response times and staffing levels, but let's stop the nit-picking over what time each piece of equipment got out unless you have reliable information.
There is an awful lot of hearsay and misinformation that ends up being the topic of a two or three page thread on here. My point is that two people come forward with information from the same incident with dramatically different response times, not seconds apart, but minutes. Check the thread, how do you account for an 8 minute difference in what two people heard? And since there is such a discrepancy, how do you sit at a distance and feel qualified to opine on what should have been done with incomplete and imperfect information? Yes, seconds count, and yes, we should all strive to provide the highest level of service, at the safest, most efficient speed that conditions allow. What doesn't count is an endless barrage of criticism over every single incident.
Don't worry about my feelings Chief, I don't "TIP", just tired of the same old harangue every time there is a structure fire IA.

"...and who cares?..." Lots of us do, apparently. In the fire service response times are crucial. That is why they are tracked and recorded. It's simply not good enough to say, "we do the best we can", or "these times aren't exact", "what's the big deal?", etc. It is a big deal. SECONDS COUNT. If we can improve response times, we will save lives and property. What is more important than that, someone's feelings?? QTIP.

So there you go boys and girls,enough holes in the times to drive a tanker through. Did Banksville's tanker respond at 16:19 or 16:27? What arrived on scene at 16:28, E157, E158, or both? Read through this thread and see how different the times are from one person to the next. Who knows who's right, and who cares? Once again, a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking and commentary by people who were not involved whatsoever, speculating and criticizing with incomplete, inaccurate information. I fail to see what is gained by all of this. My two cents.

Thanks Mike. I was pretty confident that the times were exact but I was waiting for you to confirm it. So....could someone please explain why the Banksville tanker was not enroute for a Banksville structure fire until 12 minutes after the initial alarm? None of this makes sense to me. Is this the norm???

Date: 2/1/10
Time: 08:00 hours
Location: 135-05 Cross Bay Blvd x Linden Blvd
Frequency: FDNY Queens
Weather Conditions: cold
Description Of Incident: Fire in private dwelling extended to two exposures
Reporters/Writer: ryang
Additional Info:
Address: 135-05 Cross Bay Blvd @ Linden Blvd
Box 2009
Engs. 285, 331
TL142, L173
Battalion 39
10-75-2009 - 08:00 hours
Engs. 225, 308
TL107 (FAST Truck)
Battalion 51
Squad 270
Rescue 4
Division 13
08:04 hours
L143 S/C
08:07 hours
E293 S/C
08:08 hours
Division 13: It's a 2 story 20x60, fire on the 2nd floor I believe, and it's a wood row frame.
08:10 hours
E311 is relocating to E331
7-5-2009 - 08:09 hours - Duration 14 minutes
DC13: 2009, we have 3 lines stretched, 2 in operation, trucks are opening up, we have fire in the 1st floor ceiling which extended to the 2nd floor, we're still Doubtful.
RAC4
2-2-2009 - 08:11 hours
DC13: Transmit a 2nd alarm for Box 2009, we have extension into exposure 2.
Engs. 236, 294, 303
E324 w/ Satellite 4
L126
Battalion 44 (Safety Officer)
Battalion 50 (Resource Unit Leader)
Safety, Rescue Battalions
Tactical Support 2
FieldCom, Command Tactical Unit
08:14 hours
DC13: We have fire in the cockloft in exposure 2, trucks are opening up.
08:16 hours
Thawing Apparatus 293 is responding
3-3-2009 - 08:17 hours
DC13: Transmit a 3rd alarm for box 2009, we have fire into the cockloft of the original fire building.
Engs. 302, 332, 290, 286
TL155, L175
Battalion 46
Battalion 58 (Staging Manager)
Battalion 33 (Air Recon Chief)
Mask Service Unit 1
Car 9 (DAC John Sudnik, Queens Borough Commander)
08:19 hours
Battalion 51: Have TL155 come up on 94 st, set up right behind exposure 4, we've got an engine on a hydrant ready to set up the tower ladder
08:19 hours
The Staging Area is Cross Bay Blvd between 149 blvd and Pitkin Ave
08:22 hours
Car 17 is responding
Car 12A (Executive Assistant, Safety and Inspectional Services) is responding
08:23 hours - Duration 28 minutes
DC13: Third alarm box 2009, we have 6 lines stretched, 4 in operation, we have fire in the original fire building, exposure 2, exposure 2a, we have heavy smoke in exposure 4, no fire at this time, making good progress
08:27 hours - Duration 33 minutes
DC13: Third alarm Box 2009, we have 6 lines stretched, 4 in operation, 2 are precautionary. Main body of fire has been knocked down in the original fire building, exposure 2, and exposure 2a, we have no extension into exposure 4 and 4a, we are going to go Probably Will Hold.
08:31 hours
FieldCom: Can you have Battalion 58 when he's 10-84 contact us on channel 5.
08:31 hours
Car 23D (Press Duty Car) is responding
08:31 hours
Battalion 50: 2009, you can 10-2 all special units on the 3rd alarm.
Battalion 33, Mask Service Unit 1 are 10-8
08:33 hours
Car 23 (Executive Officer of Public Information) is responding
08:34 hours
E287 is acting E308, E258 is acting E287
Battalion 49 is 10-8 in Battalion 51's response area
08:36 hours
Rescue Battalion is 10-8 back to Citywide
08:36 hours
Battalion 3 is relocating to Battalion 46
08:39 hours - Duration 44 minutes
FC: Progress report for the 3rd alarm Box 2009, the address 135-05 Cross Bay Blvd, that's near Linden Blvd, Division 13 reports: primary search throughout negative, secondary in progress. There will be extensive overhaul, Under Control.

Given what Gandhi did with a diaper and determination you might want to rethink that point.
Too tired to discuss history??? WEAKNESS I smell blood in the water!

Please do, I'm dying to read it.

First,substitute Iranian for American and that's about the way 'our adversaries' look at us. Actions have consequences. We are where we are because it is human nature to defend territory against threats. Let's talk history. The US overthrew a democratically elected prime minister in Iran in order to install the Shah as a puppet who was willing to trade Iranian oil for hot cars and hotter women.
In response to foreign intervention designed to destabilize an elected government and pillage another country's natural resources there was a revolution that brought into power a hardline response against a soulless aggressor.
When we did it to the British in the 18th century it was an act of heroism on our part. In the 1950's when the US went adventuring in Iran on behalf of Standard Oil and friends we chose the role of aggressor and we got beat at it. We earned the wrath of the Iranians. Their desire to defend themselves against a superpower by putting nuclear capability up against nuclear capability is as justified as it is horrifying.
Earth--and history-- is littered with the remains of super powers that fell prey to hubris, selling off their vast resources to feed a war machine at the expense of domestic investment. As finite resources are sucked out of domestic programs into insatiable militaristic adventures once dominant nations become walled fortresses defending an empty, impoverished, society that fails, not by being overrun, but by succumbing to ignorance, disease and eventual anarchy as desperate people with nothing left but guns have to kill each other for bread.

We're discussing various foreign affairs policies, not "fault". Try and keep up if you can.

These 'signs of indecision' and 'lack of commitment' are inevitable results of Obama's effort to revise our overall approach. Clearly, as INIT915 suggested, our past attempts have largely failed to bring any substantial change in global politics.
We often forget that the current administration is dealing with a massive crisis on the home-front as well. Informed decisions need to be made based on what is best for America in the long run, and there isn't room for the use of 'immediate, resolute and overwhelming' style tactics to instill fear in future global politics. We're only isolating ourselves by maintaining hard-line tactics.
I'm quite sure this is the current administration's sentiment as well.

I'm not advocating the use of generous appeasement tactics either.
What I am suggesting is that an approach like Obama's, which certainly differs in comparison to other times in our history, may be beneficial in the long run. His prose and rhetoric is based upon careful research into what would instigate the lowest amount of global damage.

We're discussing various foreign affairs policies, not "fault". Try and keep up if you can.

No matter who runs for President most people always regret it. I remember how everyone complained that the last Bush was horrible because they said he was incompetent; everyone hated Clinton because of his womanizing and lying ways; Bush 1 was reviled because of the so-called "read my lips" syndrome, Reagan for contra-gate/ATC isse, Carter for the Tehran blunder, Ford for being unable to make a decision; Nixon, the Watergate issue and Johnson, the Vietnam debacle. Seems like Eisenhower was the only one to escape unscathed.
The point is, no matter who is president, people will find fault right or wrong with whatever they do. Whoever replaces Obama, whether it is in 3 years or another 7 will face the same criticism and scrutiny as Obama and those before him. That's politics folks!

48%? That's more than double George Bush's approval rating.

This might as well just be closed now, because the answers were not provided last time I highly doubt they willl be provided this time and its just going to set everyone off all over again.

And so it begins yet again.

They set up the Albany Team....thats all the $$$$
It is not possible to train everybody. Particularly if you want them to be competent. Consider how hard it is to train all member to be competent as firefighters, then double it.