Remember585

Time is relative.
What I do in my first two years in the department isn't the same as what you might do. You may spend your time taking classes, while I keep going to hands on drills and respond to 100 calls compared to your 10 calls. On election night, it's usually a popularity contest, and the best candidate doesn't always prevail.
Make it tougher to move up.
- Make it 5 years in the department to move up.
- Require XXX amount of classroom training hours.
- Require XXX amount of hands on training hours.
- Require a higher % of call response then the average member.
- Put them to the test at drills and calls, make them make decisions!
I believe that training lays the foundation, while experience and ability builds the house. I can sit in 100 hours of class on how to throw a ground ladder, but until I do it and master it, it's all just speculation as to what I can do.
Senior members and officers MUST mentor the younger guys to seek out the future leadership. All of us can look around our firehouse and see who is officer material, and who should be left on the apron every call.

I've often thought the same exact thing. Then it dawned on me, if you have two years at 2nd Assistant Chief, two years at 1st Assistant Chief and those two years as the Chief, that gives you six years to make progress - assuming the ones ahead of and behind you are on board. The bottom line is that a department needs to have goals that they want to achieve, for example, "we want every member trained in extrication." (This is just a hypothetical statement!) The three Chiefs have to agree on this objective, develop a plan to get it done and actually implement that plan.
As Line Officers in most departments, we aren't exposed to the administrative side of the department. We know little to nothing about budgets, disciplinary action and all of the little things outside of the fire scene. PAPERWORK - something as simple as putting a date, times, location, nature of call and actions taken - literally intimidates people. When I was Captain and I did my monthly reports, there were so many run sheets with no narrative. So many people don't realize that these "annoying" run sheets may save your a** down the road. Take five minutes to write down as many details as you can. It doesn't happen often, but occassionally a homeowner or an insurance company may want to know information about an incident, and if it isn't written down, perhaps you didn't do it!
I'm glad to see that this thread has continued to stay positive, with feedback from so many people. Good job, Bravo'ers!

I've often thought the same exact thing. Then it dawned on me, if you have two years at 2nd Assistant Chief, two years at 1st Assistant Chief and those two years as the Chief, that gives you six years to make progress - assuming the ones ahead of and behind you are on board. The bottom line is that a department needs to have goals that they want to achieve, for example, "we want every member trained in extrication." (This is just a hypothetical statement!) The three Chiefs have to agree on this objective, develop a plan to get it done and actually implement that plan.
As Line Officers in most departments, we aren't exposed to the administrative side of the department. We know little to nothing about budgets, disciplinary action and all of the little things outside of the fire scene. PAPERWORK - something as simple as putting a date, times, location, nature of call and actions taken - literally intimidates people. When I was Captain and I did my monthly reports, there were so many run sheets with no narrative. So many people don't realize that these "annoying" run sheets may save your a** down the road. Take five minutes to write down as many details as you can. It doesn't happen often, but occassionally a homeowner or an insurance company may want to know information about an incident, and if it isn't written down, perhaps you didn't do it!
I'm glad to see that this thread has continued to stay positive, with feedback from so many people. Good job, Bravo'ers!

Time is relative.
What I do in my first two years in the department isn't the same as what you might do. You may spend your time taking classes, while I keep going to hands on drills and respond to 100 calls compared to your 10 calls. On election night, it's usually a popularity contest, and the best candidate doesn't always prevail.
Make it tougher to move up.
- Make it 5 years in the department to move up.
- Require XXX amount of classroom training hours.
- Require XXX amount of hands on training hours.
- Require a higher % of call response then the average member.
- Put them to the test at drills and calls, make them make decisions!
I believe that training lays the foundation, while experience and ability builds the house. I can sit in 100 hours of class on how to throw a ground ladder, but until I do it and master it, it's all just speculation as to what I can do.
Senior members and officers MUST mentor the younger guys to seek out the future leadership. All of us can look around our firehouse and see who is officer material, and who should be left on the apron every call.

Kenny,
A lot of the guys that became officers in the firehouse back then had military training and experience. They also saw more fires then we all do now. Times have changed. We respond to calls of all types now, not like 40-50 years ago when they went to fires and occassionally had to rescue someone from something. It's the "stupid" calls we go to that sometimes require the most thinking, and making bad decisions can lead to LAWSUITS or even JAIL TIME. In the old days, people actually respected and appreciated what first responders did for them, not like nowadays.
Your Grandpa, my Grandpa and all of those old timers only needed balls to be firemen. They charged into burning buildings without SCBA, with little to no PPE, no radios and no training. Their experiences and recollection of what worked and what didn't work is what guided them. That's just not good enough in today's society.

Time is relative.
What I do in my first two years in the department isn't the same as what you might do. You may spend your time taking classes, while I keep going to hands on drills and respond to 100 calls compared to your 10 calls. On election night, it's usually a popularity contest, and the best candidate doesn't always prevail.
Make it tougher to move up.
- Make it 5 years in the department to move up.
- Require XXX amount of classroom training hours.
- Require XXX amount of hands on training hours.
- Require a higher % of call response then the average member.
- Put them to the test at drills and calls, make them make decisions!
I believe that training lays the foundation, while experience and ability builds the house. I can sit in 100 hours of class on how to throw a ground ladder, but until I do it and master it, it's all just speculation as to what I can do.
Senior members and officers MUST mentor the younger guys to seek out the future leadership. All of us can look around our firehouse and see who is officer material, and who should be left on the apron every call.

Time is relative.
What I do in my first two years in the department isn't the same as what you might do. You may spend your time taking classes, while I keep going to hands on drills and respond to 100 calls compared to your 10 calls. On election night, it's usually a popularity contest, and the best candidate doesn't always prevail.
Make it tougher to move up.
- Make it 5 years in the department to move up.
- Require XXX amount of classroom training hours.
- Require XXX amount of hands on training hours.
- Require a higher % of call response then the average member.
- Put them to the test at drills and calls, make them make decisions!
I believe that training lays the foundation, while experience and ability builds the house. I can sit in 100 hours of class on how to throw a ground ladder, but until I do it and master it, it's all just speculation as to what I can do.
Senior members and officers MUST mentor the younger guys to seek out the future leadership. All of us can look around our firehouse and see who is officer material, and who should be left on the apron every call.

Time is relative.
What I do in my first two years in the department isn't the same as what you might do. You may spend your time taking classes, while I keep going to hands on drills and respond to 100 calls compared to your 10 calls. On election night, it's usually a popularity contest, and the best candidate doesn't always prevail.
Make it tougher to move up.
- Make it 5 years in the department to move up.
- Require XXX amount of classroom training hours.
- Require XXX amount of hands on training hours.
- Require a higher % of call response then the average member.
- Put them to the test at drills and calls, make them make decisions!
I believe that training lays the foundation, while experience and ability builds the house. I can sit in 100 hours of class on how to throw a ground ladder, but until I do it and master it, it's all just speculation as to what I can do.
Senior members and officers MUST mentor the younger guys to seek out the future leadership. All of us can look around our firehouse and see who is officer material, and who should be left on the apron every call.

The Intro to Fire Officer and Fire Officer I courses provided by the OFPC aren't bad. What would be nice is a local (county-level) Line Officer and Chief Officer training program. Give these new officers some direction by guys that have been there and done that. Have guys like Captain Benz put together a program to prepare entry-level company officers, and offer another program for chief officers. There are so many things that Chiefs need to know that frankly go unnoticed. I don't know if anyone remembers this, but a while back (maybe two years ago) I posted a topic asking what legal options and standards are out there so Chiefs knew. I got minimal reply, and my guess is that it was due to the lack of knowing this information.
Career Officers have the option to go to the FDNY FLIP School, I wish something like this (even if scaled down a bit) was available to us volunteers. We will command similar incidents and have to answer to the same lawyers if we make mistakes.

The Intro to Fire Officer and Fire Officer I courses provided by the OFPC aren't bad. What would be nice is a local (county-level) Line Officer and Chief Officer training program. Give these new officers some direction by guys that have been there and done that. Have guys like Captain Benz put together a program to prepare entry-level company officers, and offer another program for chief officers. There are so many things that Chiefs need to know that frankly go unnoticed. I don't know if anyone remembers this, but a while back (maybe two years ago) I posted a topic asking what legal options and standards are out there so Chiefs knew. I got minimal reply, and my guess is that it was due to the lack of knowing this information.
Career Officers have the option to go to the FDNY FLIP School, I wish something like this (even if scaled down a bit) was available to us volunteers. We will command similar incidents and have to answer to the same lawyers if we make mistakes.

It would appear there were other agency's that would seem to be closer. I would be curious to know the reasoning behind the agency's dispatched. (The less obvious ones, of course).
I think that's the interesting part. There is a logical reason why say Scardsdale was dispatched and say Valhalla wasn't.
I wouldn't want to be the guy or gal who gets the call that asks for 10 ambulances.
Looks like everything went as smoothly as possible.
I like the stories, not the critics.

I'm reading this before the Sun comes up, so bare with me.
WCPD (or DPS) is an awesome agency that has always struck me as proactive and aggressive when it comes to planning and coordination in Westchester County. I've participated in training exercises and worked at many incidents with the DPS and in plain english, they've got their s#it together. As a fire chief, I know I will catch crap for saying this, but I don't think any other organization around the county has a better grasp of the incident management system. During major incidents, they show up, size things up and establish not only a command presence, but implement an action plan in a timely manner. I think their expertise on hazard and disaster recognition and planning mixed with the response knowledge and capabilities of DES could result in an amazing organization poised to respond to major emergencies in Westchester County.
But, by eliminating some positions, doesn't this threaten the span of control in some areas? And what happens after some positions are eliminated, and they come to realize that perhaps they were beneficial? Will they bring them back, or out of pride will they keep them vacant and make some perform dual roles?
I have seen counties that have all services under one umbrella that work. I have also seen them fail or come up short. What concerns me is the vibe I get in this proposal - it feels more like a takeover then it does a merger. All references in the proposal seem one-sided from DPS on how they can absorb DES and make it run smoother and more efficiently. In many ways, I think that this has great potential, but something also tells me that we may see it deplete / ruin certain things that many people worked hard to accomplish.
As for consolidating communications, this isn't a bad concept. The bigger issue would be to have one central communications center that handles everything in every community, with the exception of the larger cities (if so desired). People don't realize how inefficient it is now to have 911 calls go to one place, then get transferred to another - which sometimes goes to the wrong place or doesn't happen. I personally feel that if we can consolidate DPS and 60 Control communications centers, that we should eventually assume the responsibility of answering cellular 911 as well. The TMC already transfers many police requests to WCPD, and fire/EMS requests come to 60 Control (majority of the time). When a call is in an unknown area or outside of Westchester, many times they transfer it to us to "figure out" and send to the proper agency (IE: FDNY, Rockland, Putnam, Nassau, Suffolk, etc.). With the CAD system we have, we can handle this almost seemlessly. If you add the knowledge of the DPS communications personnel, Westchester County could have one of the best communications centers in the country. (IMHO)
Time will tell, I just hope that every aspect is looked at beyond it's cost efficiency shock value.
(Now I will go hide because I am sure someone will jump down my throat for speaking my mind...)

I'm reading this before the Sun comes up, so bare with me.
WCPD (or DPS) is an awesome agency that has always struck me as proactive and aggressive when it comes to planning and coordination in Westchester County. I've participated in training exercises and worked at many incidents with the DPS and in plain english, they've got their s#it together. As a fire chief, I know I will catch crap for saying this, but I don't think any other organization around the county has a better grasp of the incident management system. During major incidents, they show up, size things up and establish not only a command presence, but implement an action plan in a timely manner. I think their expertise on hazard and disaster recognition and planning mixed with the response knowledge and capabilities of DES could result in an amazing organization poised to respond to major emergencies in Westchester County.
But, by eliminating some positions, doesn't this threaten the span of control in some areas? And what happens after some positions are eliminated, and they come to realize that perhaps they were beneficial? Will they bring them back, or out of pride will they keep them vacant and make some perform dual roles?
I have seen counties that have all services under one umbrella that work. I have also seen them fail or come up short. What concerns me is the vibe I get in this proposal - it feels more like a takeover then it does a merger. All references in the proposal seem one-sided from DPS on how they can absorb DES and make it run smoother and more efficiently. In many ways, I think that this has great potential, but something also tells me that we may see it deplete / ruin certain things that many people worked hard to accomplish.
As for consolidating communications, this isn't a bad concept. The bigger issue would be to have one central communications center that handles everything in every community, with the exception of the larger cities (if so desired). People don't realize how inefficient it is now to have 911 calls go to one place, then get transferred to another - which sometimes goes to the wrong place or doesn't happen. I personally feel that if we can consolidate DPS and 60 Control communications centers, that we should eventually assume the responsibility of answering cellular 911 as well. The TMC already transfers many police requests to WCPD, and fire/EMS requests come to 60 Control (majority of the time). When a call is in an unknown area or outside of Westchester, many times they transfer it to us to "figure out" and send to the proper agency (IE: FDNY, Rockland, Putnam, Nassau, Suffolk, etc.). With the CAD system we have, we can handle this almost seemlessly. If you add the knowledge of the DPS communications personnel, Westchester County could have one of the best communications centers in the country. (IMHO)
Time will tell, I just hope that every aspect is looked at beyond it's cost efficiency shock value.
(Now I will go hide because I am sure someone will jump down my throat for speaking my mind...)

After taking the time to read the document it does appear to be one sided with a "Crystal Palace" empirical look at how things would work in a "perfect world". But we all know it is far from a perfect world. Through out the document it consistantly states that DES is providing a duplication of DPS services. It never states that DPS is duplicating DES services. One section relating to HazMat that seemed to be through rose colored glasses was the text


"Under a consolidated DPS, the HMRT will be an arm of the DPS Hazardous Devices Unit (formerly known as the Bomb Squad). The Hazardous Devices Unit will respond to all potential CBRNE incidents and utilize available volunteers of the HMRT to support its operations. This should significantly reduce response times to CBRNE in Westchester County and ensure that resources are used efficiently and effectively."
If we thought the paid/volunteer issue was always raising its ugly head here combine that with Paid PD/Volunteer FD and what how it plays out.

Looking for opinions here...
Do you feel your apparatus drivers should or should not be wearing their gear when driving? I've driven apparatus in shorts and sneakers, bunker pants, and even in my socks (a long time ago, relax).
And, once on the scene, do you feel your ECC or TCC needs to be in PPE to operate the pump or to operate the aerial?
I'm not looking for any fighting, but opinions. It has been discussed dozens of times around our firehouse, and I want to see what others think.
Personally, I don't think you drivers should wear anything that hinders their safe operating of the apparatus. With modern apparatus having the engine between the driver and officer, it becomes a little tighter in the driver's seat. For a larger gentleman, such as myself, I find wearing my bunker pants with the bailout rope in the pocket to be a bit of a pain in the neck.
What's your thoughts?

In light of a recent incident discussion, I wanted to ask everyone how their department handles the rehabilitation of firefighters at incidents. Remember, it doesn't have to be a working house fire in the middle of July - we all need rest, replenishing of fluids and relief no matter what kind of incident and regardless of the time of year.
I'll take the lead and start. On any confirmed fire (10-75) in our jurisdiction, we get a minimum of two ambulances, a Medic and a rehab unit from Cortlandt VAC (or another if they aren't available). Once we reach a 2nd Alarm, additional resources are dispatched including EMS, relief personnel and even a canteen from Salvation Army, if needed.
For any prolonged operation, we request EMS (if not already there) to look after our personnel.
We carry bottled water on all apparatus, and keep a misting fan on our Rescue. We recently gave another misting fan to EMS, and we give them cases of water to keep on the rigs for our personnel.
We're working together with EMS on setting up more firm procedures for what needs to be done.
Share your thoughts!

First, what's going on here is that people are asking questions about problems which they are seeing from pictures and listening to from radio chatter which most of the writers on bravo find offensive. Secondly, everyone is also putting these questions in a format that other people on this website can never handle because they're being told what was done wrong instead of suggesting what could be improved for the next incident.
Instead of people ranting about what they don't like about Briarcliff's operation, they should put their opinions in a more constructive format... and for that matter, the people answering the questions should exert a little more control over themselves before getting all riled up for nothing!
I wasn't at this job so i cannot comment on the operation of this fire...However, maybe all the Departments in Westchester County can start by putting written orders into 60 control's CAD system for automatic dispatching policies. This in itself would solve the major debacle going on in many small communities at most major fires in this microcosm we call Wastechester!
Putting a truck in front or as near to a private dwelling fire or any other structural fire for at least the use of its ground ladders and specialized equipment is always a great idea. We don't necessarily need the aerial at this job but we're gonna VES the hell outta the bldg. more quickly and more efficiently with a couple of 24' extention ladders!
As for 5" across a street, with water loss or any imminent water problems, you do whatever you have to do to make sure there is a positive continuation of water for anyone working inside (especially those working above a fire). With that said, anyone experiencing water problems should be on the air giving an urgent to the IC with confirmation back from him that he and everyone else is aware of the situation.
As far as a FAST Truck goes, at minimum!, 2 firefighters need to be fully geared and ready to go to work outside of the IDLH if there are members operating inside of any area that is going to labelled as an IDLH atmosphere. If the IC decides he wants to relieve them with an additional team, that's his decision. But remember that the original FAST truck has hopefully been there since operations commenced and they know exactly what is going on from the start of the incident to the incident/fire being placed under control. If the incident is prolonged, they should be complemented with a unit which keeps them hydrated at all times. If they came on a TL which needs to immediately be placed into service for whatever reason, that's a different story... for another day. But note that if this does occur, we still need to keep the 2 in 2 out minimum in affect at all times until and additional FAST truck arrives.
Lastly, if anybody, whether a chief, lieutenant, or just a regular ff is running any type of prolonged operation where the men are going to be exerting themselves or overexerting themselves he/she should think of having at least 2 ambulances (BLS and ALS) and a rehab unit on scene--one bus for standby purposes and one for transport.
That's my 2 and i hope this thread doesn't go for another 10 or 20 pages like the rest of them do.
Stay safe everyone!

I was at work so didn't respond to this job but since the door has been opened I'll step through. Some bullet point comments on Seth's post.
First and foremost, everyone went home some minor injuries, smoke inhalation aside. The two brothers in Bridgeport were not so lucky yesterday.
Above, pre-plans and response policies were questioned and referred to as "antiquated" in Westchester. I do not know how Briarcliff operates, but I can tell you that many volunteer and career departments alike in Westchester have detailed greater alarm response policies in the CAD at 60 control and are often executed automatically without any radio transmissions necessary. In addition to that, the county "battalion cars" act as the resource officer at jobs, taking pressure off of the IC. I do not know all of the battalions personally but I will tell you two I do know bring to the table plenty of experience to know when to "suggest" to IC's when to request additional resources.
I am quite sure this fire could have been run differently, as every single fire is different and different IC's will not run the same
fire the same way. It is quite possible that had this job had occurred in another district it would have sounded more "professional" on the air. Maybe some unknown department that sounds great on the air loses the entire structure, maybe not? How u sound on the air means dick when u have someone trapped above the fire and everyone is looking at you to make a decision.
Most volunteer rescue companies in Westchester were born from fire police. Just because a particular company carries certain tools does
not mean that their membership is as specialized as their toolbox.
FAST in the weather conditions yesterday needed to be properly relieved. A good proactive FAST is doing more than anyone realizes, just being bunkered up and ready to roll on a day like yesterday is taxing on the body. If after rehab the IC chooses to use the relieved FAST for overhaul or salvage rather than request additional resources, I don't see an issue. I see it done often.
Radio discipline is a issue everywhere. And I do mean everywhere, ever hear tapes of ground ops channels from highly regarded paid
departments where maydays are stepped all over due to poor radio discipline?
The fire service is reactive by nature, if if Black Friday had never occurred PSS systems would not be an NFPA standard today. Each member from the to the IC down to the probie has to take a personal inventory after each job and ask him/herself how they can be better and safer next time.
I think in a forum such as this positivity is key. Every member can learn something from every run...
Stay Safe and Hydrate...

I'd also like to give a shout out to The Journal News / Lohud.com for it's top-notch non-existent coverage of this fire.

It was Ladder 41 that responded to the scene and the engines left room for the ladder. Water just started flowing upon the arrival of Ladder 41. It's easy to second guess whats going on by listening to the radio, but communication on the fire ground went well. Fireground 3 was utilized and all teams were able to communicate with IC or the operations Chief. Heat was a factor and we made sure we rotated crews every 15 -20 minutes. The building was concrete including the floors and roof. extension was limited to a few kitchen cabinets on the second floor of one unit. Utilizing the initial F.A.S. Team is not a bad thing, as long as their replacement is on scene and ready to take over FAST. Briarcliff FD did a great job as well as their Chief.
2332

Took these photos today at the blessing of the fleet

A. I believe there is nothing wrong with sending resources early. It's just as easy to cancel them.
B. I don't agree that "any member" shouldn't be requesting resources. A firefighter is a firefighter, right? They should have the basic knowledge to know what they got, where it's going and what resources they need.
C. If it was your garage, your house, whatever - wouldn't you have a little bit of a "pucker-factor" going? It's your stuff!

You had a generator in your firehouse in 1977? We still don't have one!!!! :angry:
I wasn't around for the 1977 blackout but I remember the 2003 one. My sister was vacuuming out her car in the back of the house, when all of a sudden everything went out. My first thought was that she tripped a breaker, so I looked and they were all on. Her car radio mentioned a blackout in the whole north east, so I figured I should go to the firehouse. After a while, we found out our PD HQ was having issues with their generator (which again was a no-show this winter) so I got stuck manning our base. We went on a bunch of calls due to the outage and restoration of power.
Hopefully that doesn't happen again any time soon...

A. I believe there is nothing wrong with sending resources early. It's just as easy to cancel them.
B. I don't agree that "any member" shouldn't be requesting resources. A firefighter is a firefighter, right? They should have the basic knowledge to know what they got, where it's going and what resources they need.
C. If it was your garage, your house, whatever - wouldn't you have a little bit of a "pucker-factor" going? It's your stuff!