Bnechis

Again my issue is if a member does not have FAST training then they are not an interior qualified firefighter.
Yes it is part of the career academy. Just because it is not included does not mean a department can't or should not require it.
When we talk about the different training standards, I find it amazing that any chief would consider sending a member (his "brother") into a working fire without having been trained in survival. And not requiring them to know what to do if a "brother" gets in trouble.
So based on previous postings and OFPC's discription of FAST, we have departments that are willing to send members into burning buildings that do not know how do the above listed skills. Why bother having a fire department at all, it is clear that these departments do not care about there members or the public if they are so willing to put themselves at risk, because 16 hours is way to much time to invest in ones brother.
PLEASE THINK LONG AND HARD ABOUT THIS....IF YOUR DEPARTMENT ALLOWS THIS, IT NEEDS TO CHANGE TODAY.

Is kudos really needed just because they did what they should do? Every firefighter is taught that if you can not complete an assignment you need to notify the IC. This is mandatory. If you can not respond for any reason, manpower, mechanical, your own calls, etc. you advise dispatch.
I see a major problem within your statement. They can send an engine company but not one that is trained well enough to be a "FAST". In general the concept of having mutual aid depts provide FAST makes sense if your dept is not big enough to have enough interior trained personnel on scene to do attack (including search and all other functions) and FAST. Also many VFD's FAST on mutual aid is based on sending its "best" which is not a bad idea, but if they can send an engine crew, that is not good enough to be FAST, thanks but no thanks. I do not want to be working inside a working fire knowing that the guys on my back up line are not trained or experienced enough to save me if something goes wrong!!!!
If you said they could not get out I would accept before I'd except we can only send partially trained FF's.
If you are not trained to save your brothers you are not a firefighter. Do not get on the rig.
Very well stated, thanks Chris. It is pretty clear that until either a) community &/or fire service leaders start to actually lead or b ) the state forces the issue, we will continue to see these threads after every fire. It real is sad to see how many leaders have there heads in the sand.

On another day would LA consider doing this to grab another firefighter or maniquin as part of a training evolution. I understand that they have and do that. So the question then is there more risk doing this rescue if they put there members into similar conditions as training.
Also the reason for so many responders is they set up half a dozen or more rescue sites for rescues in the LA River. The flow is so fast they only get about 2 seconds to make a grab before the victim is beyond them. The primary method they use is an inflated firehose anchored at one end and suspended atthe other end and middle, on the down stream side of a bridge. the second the victim grabs hold they release it and it swings shoreward on the anchored end (like a door) and members in swift water gear (PFD, Wetsuit, water helmet, swift water fins, teather)make the grab.

Thanks
The crane was speced to allow a minimum of NFPA 1983 2 man load as a gin pole. Infact we assisted DPW on Thursday by lowering 2 of there guys into an underground pipe.
We needed the abbility of moving personnel (using rope, not the cranes power) to get members down to the boat when its lowered over a seawall. We also carry (on the roof) a Supervac 30" gas PPV fan (168 pounds). and 2) 810gpm hydraulic submersable trash pumps (68 pounds each).

NRFD has a 2009 Isuzu that is being outfitted to replace our MCI unit (and move Mass Decon from a trailer). We ordered a GMC (which is made in Japan)it was built and loaded on a ship in Kobe. We were advised that we could not take delivery because a federal bankrupcy court determined that GMC could no longer sell it. If we wanted we could have the Isuzu that was on the same ship and had the same vin # (it was the same truck). It does not turn into GMC or Isuzu until it gets to Baltimore.

We have done NOTHING. In fact we have reduced response capabilities. Didn't the county have cutbacks proposed in WCPD's marine unit? And on Long Island Sound New Rochelle PD cut back its marine unit and eliminated its dive unit.
Interesting point, yes we are too thin, but that is because every dept is trying to do everything. Both NYPD & FDNY are large enough to have dedicated units to do this. What about marine firefighting, is that part of our core?
We did, before the hoisted anchor (and rotor) and scaled back on the hudson, NYC & Long Island Sound (and a 50+ mile radius of the Atlantic ocean around NYC).

Very well said. How many departments would buy all those rigs without head lights? We do not need to respond to calls at night is no different than we do not need to respond in the winter. You can not expect the 20+ FD's (Plus PD's) to buy the multi million dollar boats that are actually needed. The only way we will ever have the boats needed is to consolidate and do it as a single agency.
If a departments fire station was snowed in, do you think they would consider alternatives? The harbors being frozen means we have not done the planning and purchasing that is needed to ensure the safety of our personnel and the public.
A big part of the problem is most departments believe this. How many departments believe that their depts can get enough people to a working fire? Most are blind. If our planning is left to "I believe" then we (or those in the water) are doomed.
Chief well said!!! 14 fire departments in Westchester are on the river and 7 are on Long Island Sound (LIS) plus police departments. How many have boats? How many can do the job 24/7/365? if we had 3 larger boats on the Hudson and 2 on the Sound could they cover it all and for less?
I think we will never find out because of the turf you mentioned.

Event Date: 26-January 10 9:00 (Single Day Event)
New Rochelle Fire Department is sponsering a 3 hour Performance Measurements for Fire Departments
Session Description
FireStats will introduce, demonstrate and discuss various performance measures commonly used for fire
departments. These include response time fractiles and percentiles, unit and system reliability, unit and system availability, unit-hour utilizations, resource concentration, and effective staffing.
Also discuss are the benefits and pitfalls of comparing engine company performance by company and shift, and the various ways to look at personnel and engine company performance.
This half-day session is designed to give fire officers a comprehensive understanding of the most commonly used analytic and statistical tools available to the fire service – tools that are especially useful in Fire Department Accreditation and Standards of Response Coverage. Most of the analyses that will be discussed are fairly easily performed in Microsoft Excel and they will be demonstrate briefly on how to perform certain of these analyses with this common software that most departments already have. Attendees should not bring computers as the Excel demonstration will not be a tutorial, but rather a quick demonstration of what is possible.
Course Instructor
Paul Rottenberg is the president of FireStats, LLC., an education and management consulting firm providing analysis and support to fire departments throughout the United States. Paul has an MBA from the University of San Francisco and has worked for public and private entities in financial and operations analysis for over 25 years. Paul is the sole creator and instructor of all FireStats curriculum has taught his classes to over 1,000 fire officers throughout the US.
FireStats has worked on over 500 fire department analysis projects including Standards of Cover, Accreditation, strategic plans, and customized statistical and probabilistic analyses in support of engine and ambulance deployment and staffing models. Paul has ten years as an active paid-call engineer/EMT with a combination fire department in Northern California, is a subject matter expert in Deployment Analysis for the USFA at the National Fire Academy, teaches for the Center for Public Safety Excellence, and is a member of the American Management Association’s Technology, Innovation and Manufacturing Management Council. In addition to teaching and working on ad hoc projects, Paul is currently retained by several fire departments to provide ongoing analysis to the executive staff.
To attend this session, please contact: paul@FireStats.com

We have done NOTHING. In fact we have reduced response capabilities. Didn't the county have cutbacks proposed in WCPD's marine unit? And on Long Island Sound New Rochelle PD cut back its marine unit and eliminated its dive unit.
Interesting point, yes we are too thin, but that is because every dept is trying to do everything. Both NYPD & FDNY are large enough to have dedicated units to do this. What about marine firefighting, is that part of our core?
We did, before the hoisted anchor (and rotor) and scaled back on the hudson, NYC & Long Island Sound (and a 50+ mile radius of the Atlantic ocean around NYC).

We took delivery, we have been outfitting it. training is scheduled for next week and we expect it to go inservice at the end of next week. I will post next week as we train.
The 91' Pierce Rescue 4 will be renumbered R-54 (collapse unit) and reoutfitted to carry trench equipment and additional shoring. The current R-54 (former NYPD/NRPD ESU Truck) will be donated to the Farrell Fund (the found another home for it).

I put on gloves to drive, but thats because I see to many emt's handle the patiens, then drive. and rarely see anyone clean the wheel, the door handles or the stretcher.

The Westchester Special Operations Task Force (WSOTF) consists of 10 departments operating a Technical rescue, Hazmat unit and 6 squad companies. The squads are from Yonkers, New Rochelle, Mt Vernon, White Plains, Eastchester & Scarsdale, and Greenville/Fairview/Hartsdale. All squads are trained and equipped for in Hazmat/WMD and Confined Space, all are trained for trench & building collapse, but only 4 of the squads are equiped for that. We train together, we would like to train together more, but sometimes funding is funneled elsewhere and not to WSOTF ($400,000 from a WSTOF major collapse drill went far north). If you wanted the services of WSOTF they can be requested thru 60 Control, but you have to ask for them, if you want WSOTF otherwise they will send the team they feel is "best".
Yonkers, Greenville and New Rochelle responded to Hawthorne for a building collapse after a tornado strike (about 2 years ago). 18 minutes after dispatch we had approximatly 56 technical rescue techs onscene which included 3 collapse units and 2 heavy rescue units. This was on a weekday afternoon.
Is it a duplication to have the Westchester TRT? what kind of response can they provide? Last weekend Valhalla FD had a vehicle into a building and they requested the WTRT to respond. The onscene time was 20 minutes from time of dispatach. How many members arrived in 20 minutes?
WSOTF was able to get 56 fully trained members to Hawthorne in the same time it tok WTRT to respond to Valhalla with "X" number of responders. Note: as of last summer they had approx 25 members who had completed the states building collapse course.
New Rochelle (and others) have responded M/A to other counties and even north to the Canadian Border. When we were trying to establish a county wide system (years before the WTRT) we traveled north a number of times to show volunteer depts that we wanted their participation.

The Westchester Special Operations Task Force (WSOTF) consists of 10 departments operating a Technical rescue, Hazmat unit and 6 squad companies. The squads are from Yonkers, New Rochelle, Mt Vernon, White Plains, Eastchester & Scarsdale, and Greenville/Fairview/Hartsdale. All squads are trained and equipped for in Hazmat/WMD and Confined Space, all are trained for trench & building collapse, but only 4 of the squads are equiped for that. We train together, we would like to train together more, but sometimes funding is funneled elsewhere and not to WSOTF ($400,000 from a WSTOF major collapse drill went far north). If you wanted the services of WSOTF they can be requested thru 60 Control, but you have to ask for them, if you want WSOTF otherwise they will send the team they feel is "best".
Yonkers, Greenville and New Rochelle responded to Hawthorne for a building collapse after a tornado strike (about 2 years ago). 18 minutes after dispatch we had approximatly 56 technical rescue techs onscene which included 3 collapse units and 2 heavy rescue units. This was on a weekday afternoon.
Is it a duplication to have the Westchester TRT? what kind of response can they provide? Last weekend Valhalla FD had a vehicle into a building and they requested the WTRT to respond. The onscene time was 20 minutes from time of dispatach. How many members arrived in 20 minutes?
WSOTF was able to get 56 fully trained members to Hawthorne in the same time it tok WTRT to respond to Valhalla with "X" number of responders. Note: as of last summer they had approx 25 members who had completed the states building collapse course.
New Rochelle (and others) have responded M/A to other counties and even north to the Canadian Border. When we were trying to establish a county wide system (years before the WTRT) we traveled north a number of times to show volunteer depts that we wanted their participation.

The Westchester Special Operations Task Force (WSOTF) consists of 10 departments operating a Technical rescue, Hazmat unit and 6 squad companies. The squads are from Yonkers, New Rochelle, Mt Vernon, White Plains, Eastchester & Scarsdale, and Greenville/Fairview/Hartsdale. All squads are trained and equipped for in Hazmat/WMD and Confined Space, all are trained for trench & building collapse, but only 4 of the squads are equiped for that. We train together, we would like to train together more, but sometimes funding is funneled elsewhere and not to WSOTF ($400,000 from a WSTOF major collapse drill went far north). If you wanted the services of WSOTF they can be requested thru 60 Control, but you have to ask for them, if you want WSOTF otherwise they will send the team they feel is "best".
Yonkers, Greenville and New Rochelle responded to Hawthorne for a building collapse after a tornado strike (about 2 years ago). 18 minutes after dispatch we had approximatly 56 technical rescue techs onscene which included 3 collapse units and 2 heavy rescue units. This was on a weekday afternoon.
Is it a duplication to have the Westchester TRT? what kind of response can they provide? Last weekend Valhalla FD had a vehicle into a building and they requested the WTRT to respond. The onscene time was 20 minutes from time of dispatach. How many members arrived in 20 minutes?
WSOTF was able to get 56 fully trained members to Hawthorne in the same time it tok WTRT to respond to Valhalla with "X" number of responders. Note: as of last summer they had approx 25 members who had completed the states building collapse course.
New Rochelle (and others) have responded M/A to other counties and even north to the Canadian Border. When we were trying to establish a county wide system (years before the WTRT) we traveled north a number of times to show volunteer depts that we wanted their participation.

The Westchester Special Operations Task Force (WSOTF) consists of 10 departments operating a Technical rescue, Hazmat unit and 6 squad companies. The squads are from Yonkers, New Rochelle, Mt Vernon, White Plains, Eastchester & Scarsdale, and Greenville/Fairview/Hartsdale. All squads are trained and equipped for in Hazmat/WMD and Confined Space, all are trained for trench & building collapse, but only 4 of the squads are equiped for that. We train together, we would like to train together more, but sometimes funding is funneled elsewhere and not to WSOTF ($400,000 from a WSTOF major collapse drill went far north). If you wanted the services of WSOTF they can be requested thru 60 Control, but you have to ask for them, if you want WSOTF otherwise they will send the team they feel is "best".
Yonkers, Greenville and New Rochelle responded to Hawthorne for a building collapse after a tornado strike (about 2 years ago). 18 minutes after dispatch we had approximatly 56 technical rescue techs onscene which included 3 collapse units and 2 heavy rescue units. This was on a weekday afternoon.
Is it a duplication to have the Westchester TRT? what kind of response can they provide? Last weekend Valhalla FD had a vehicle into a building and they requested the WTRT to respond. The onscene time was 20 minutes from time of dispatach. How many members arrived in 20 minutes?
WSOTF was able to get 56 fully trained members to Hawthorne in the same time it tok WTRT to respond to Valhalla with "X" number of responders. Note: as of last summer they had approx 25 members who had completed the states building collapse course.
New Rochelle (and others) have responded M/A to other counties and even north to the Canadian Border. When we were trying to establish a county wide system (years before the WTRT) we traveled north a number of times to show volunteer depts that we wanted their participation.

The Westchester Special Operations Task Force (WSOTF) consists of 10 departments operating a Technical rescue, Hazmat unit and 6 squad companies. The squads are from Yonkers, New Rochelle, Mt Vernon, White Plains, Eastchester & Scarsdale, and Greenville/Fairview/Hartsdale. All squads are trained and equipped for in Hazmat/WMD and Confined Space, all are trained for trench & building collapse, but only 4 of the squads are equiped for that. We train together, we would like to train together more, but sometimes funding is funneled elsewhere and not to WSOTF ($400,000 from a WSTOF major collapse drill went far north). If you wanted the services of WSOTF they can be requested thru 60 Control, but you have to ask for them, if you want WSOTF otherwise they will send the team they feel is "best".
Yonkers, Greenville and New Rochelle responded to Hawthorne for a building collapse after a tornado strike (about 2 years ago). 18 minutes after dispatch we had approximatly 56 technical rescue techs onscene which included 3 collapse units and 2 heavy rescue units. This was on a weekday afternoon.
Is it a duplication to have the Westchester TRT? what kind of response can they provide? Last weekend Valhalla FD had a vehicle into a building and they requested the WTRT to respond. The onscene time was 20 minutes from time of dispatach. How many members arrived in 20 minutes?
WSOTF was able to get 56 fully trained members to Hawthorne in the same time it tok WTRT to respond to Valhalla with "X" number of responders. Note: as of last summer they had approx 25 members who had completed the states building collapse course.
New Rochelle (and others) have responded M/A to other counties and even north to the Canadian Border. When we were trying to establish a county wide system (years before the WTRT) we traveled north a number of times to show volunteer depts that we wanted their participation.

This is true in the northeast, but in many portions of the country county or regional depts. are career or combination. Often because it is cheaper when it is done on a regional bases. While the volume may be lower in bedroom communities, the type of response is based on the emergency, not the type of community (if the house is burning, the fire des not care if its in a city or out in the country). The spending difference that you speak of would be based on trying to fully staff a volunteer dept in Westchester with career personnel. When you look at the southern regional models (GA, SC & FLA, etc.) most stations with the call volumes seen in many Westchester depts. would only require an engine (and a tanker if no muni water system). Its amazing that they send less for career depts then we spend and meet national standards for response.
Clearly the overall budget is less in a volunteer dept., career depts. are established with larger populations than those found in most bedroom communities. Either a city or county/region. When covering a larger population the costs per family (or per tax payer). As an example I compared the per capita cost of my city FD with that of a number of VFD's in notrthern westchester and we average about $100 less per capita. The key is regionialization.
Even more amazing would be the amount of money that could be saved in the volunteer communities in Westchester if they would become a regional dept. The only one who would not save money is the apparatus dealers.
If life hazard or significant property dammage threat is not an issue then why does every dept in westchester need all the apparatus it has? Based on that statement alone, do we need all of the FD's (and stations and rigs) we have?
If politician did a risk/benefit assesment they would figure we would be better in some communities with no FD and pay the next dept over to come to the 1 call every few days. Politicians do risk/benefit assesments for there career, not for the safety of the community. If they think funding a new tower ladder in a VFD that does not need one will get them reelected then they will get a new TL.
If you ask that way, of course they will never go for it. One County in S.C. showed that going county wide and career dropped the ISO rating from a 9 to a 5, saving each property about $800/yr in fire insurance while increasing the fire tax by $300, they put it to a vote and everyone is saving money today.
You are right it wont happen here, because we will fight to keep our depts. seperate, even if we can not meet the needs, because we are way to proud of the "great" job we are doing.
The reason taxes are #1 in Westchester is because the pleasure of our communities is to do it this way, because they do not understand that the rest of the country does it for a fraction of the cost (this is mostly school tax, but every tax contributes).

This is true in the northeast, but in many portions of the country county or regional depts. are career or combination. Often because it is cheaper when it is done on a regional bases. While the volume may be lower in bedroom communities, the type of response is based on the emergency, not the type of community (if the house is burning, the fire des not care if its in a city or out in the country). The spending difference that you speak of would be based on trying to fully staff a volunteer dept in Westchester with career personnel. When you look at the southern regional models (GA, SC & FLA, etc.) most stations with the call volumes seen in many Westchester depts. would only require an engine (and a tanker if no muni water system). Its amazing that they send less for career depts then we spend and meet national standards for response.
Clearly the overall budget is less in a volunteer dept., career depts. are established with larger populations than those found in most bedroom communities. Either a city or county/region. When covering a larger population the costs per family (or per tax payer). As an example I compared the per capita cost of my city FD with that of a number of VFD's in notrthern westchester and we average about $100 less per capita. The key is regionialization.
Even more amazing would be the amount of money that could be saved in the volunteer communities in Westchester if they would become a regional dept. The only one who would not save money is the apparatus dealers.
If life hazard or significant property dammage threat is not an issue then why does every dept in westchester need all the apparatus it has? Based on that statement alone, do we need all of the FD's (and stations and rigs) we have?
If politician did a risk/benefit assesment they would figure we would be better in some communities with no FD and pay the next dept over to come to the 1 call every few days. Politicians do risk/benefit assesments for there career, not for the safety of the community. If they think funding a new tower ladder in a VFD that does not need one will get them reelected then they will get a new TL.
If you ask that way, of course they will never go for it. One County in S.C. showed that going county wide and career dropped the ISO rating from a 9 to a 5, saving each property about $800/yr in fire insurance while increasing the fire tax by $300, they put it to a vote and everyone is saving money today.
You are right it wont happen here, because we will fight to keep our depts. seperate, even if we can not meet the needs, because we are way to proud of the "great" job we are doing.
The reason taxes are #1 in Westchester is because the pleasure of our communities is to do it this way, because they do not understand that the rest of the country does it for a fraction of the cost (this is mostly school tax, but every tax contributes).

This is true in the northeast, but in many portions of the country county or regional depts. are career or combination. Often because it is cheaper when it is done on a regional bases. While the volume may be lower in bedroom communities, the type of response is based on the emergency, not the type of community (if the house is burning, the fire des not care if its in a city or out in the country). The spending difference that you speak of would be based on trying to fully staff a volunteer dept in Westchester with career personnel. When you look at the southern regional models (GA, SC & FLA, etc.) most stations with the call volumes seen in many Westchester depts. would only require an engine (and a tanker if no muni water system). Its amazing that they send less for career depts then we spend and meet national standards for response.
Clearly the overall budget is less in a volunteer dept., career depts. are established with larger populations than those found in most bedroom communities. Either a city or county/region. When covering a larger population the costs per family (or per tax payer). As an example I compared the per capita cost of my city FD with that of a number of VFD's in notrthern westchester and we average about $100 less per capita. The key is regionialization.
Even more amazing would be the amount of money that could be saved in the volunteer communities in Westchester if they would become a regional dept. The only one who would not save money is the apparatus dealers.
If life hazard or significant property dammage threat is not an issue then why does every dept in westchester need all the apparatus it has? Based on that statement alone, do we need all of the FD's (and stations and rigs) we have?
If politician did a risk/benefit assesment they would figure we would be better in some communities with no FD and pay the next dept over to come to the 1 call every few days. Politicians do risk/benefit assesments for there career, not for the safety of the community. If they think funding a new tower ladder in a VFD that does not need one will get them reelected then they will get a new TL.
If you ask that way, of course they will never go for it. One County in S.C. showed that going county wide and career dropped the ISO rating from a 9 to a 5, saving each property about $800/yr in fire insurance while increasing the fire tax by $300, they put it to a vote and everyone is saving money today.
You are right it wont happen here, because we will fight to keep our depts. seperate, even if we can not meet the needs, because we are way to proud of the "great" job we are doing.
The reason taxes are #1 in Westchester is because the pleasure of our communities is to do it this way, because they do not understand that the rest of the country does it for a fraction of the cost (this is mostly school tax, but every tax contributes).

This is true in the northeast, but in many portions of the country county or regional depts. are career or combination. Often because it is cheaper when it is done on a regional bases. While the volume may be lower in bedroom communities, the type of response is based on the emergency, not the type of community (if the house is burning, the fire des not care if its in a city or out in the country). The spending difference that you speak of would be based on trying to fully staff a volunteer dept in Westchester with career personnel. When you look at the southern regional models (GA, SC & FLA, etc.) most stations with the call volumes seen in many Westchester depts. would only require an engine (and a tanker if no muni water system). Its amazing that they send less for career depts then we spend and meet national standards for response.
Clearly the overall budget is less in a volunteer dept., career depts. are established with larger populations than those found in most bedroom communities. Either a city or county/region. When covering a larger population the costs per family (or per tax payer). As an example I compared the per capita cost of my city FD with that of a number of VFD's in notrthern westchester and we average about $100 less per capita. The key is regionialization.
Even more amazing would be the amount of money that could be saved in the volunteer communities in Westchester if they would become a regional dept. The only one who would not save money is the apparatus dealers.
If life hazard or significant property dammage threat is not an issue then why does every dept in westchester need all the apparatus it has? Based on that statement alone, do we need all of the FD's (and stations and rigs) we have?
If politician did a risk/benefit assesment they would figure we would be better in some communities with no FD and pay the next dept over to come to the 1 call every few days. Politicians do risk/benefit assesments for there career, not for the safety of the community. If they think funding a new tower ladder in a VFD that does not need one will get them reelected then they will get a new TL.
If you ask that way, of course they will never go for it. One County in S.C. showed that going county wide and career dropped the ISO rating from a 9 to a 5, saving each property about $800/yr in fire insurance while increasing the fire tax by $300, they put it to a vote and everyone is saving money today.
You are right it wont happen here, because we will fight to keep our depts. seperate, even if we can not meet the needs, because we are way to proud of the "great" job we are doing.
The reason taxes are #1 in Westchester is because the pleasure of our communities is to do it this way, because they do not understand that the rest of the country does it for a fraction of the cost (this is mostly school tax, but every tax contributes).

This is true in the northeast, but in many portions of the country county or regional depts. are career or combination. Often because it is cheaper when it is done on a regional bases. While the volume may be lower in bedroom communities, the type of response is based on the emergency, not the type of community (if the house is burning, the fire des not care if its in a city or out in the country). The spending difference that you speak of would be based on trying to fully staff a volunteer dept in Westchester with career personnel. When you look at the southern regional models (GA, SC & FLA, etc.) most stations with the call volumes seen in many Westchester depts. would only require an engine (and a tanker if no muni water system). Its amazing that they send less for career depts then we spend and meet national standards for response.
Clearly the overall budget is less in a volunteer dept., career depts. are established with larger populations than those found in most bedroom communities. Either a city or county/region. When covering a larger population the costs per family (or per tax payer). As an example I compared the per capita cost of my city FD with that of a number of VFD's in notrthern westchester and we average about $100 less per capita. The key is regionialization.
Even more amazing would be the amount of money that could be saved in the volunteer communities in Westchester if they would become a regional dept. The only one who would not save money is the apparatus dealers.
If life hazard or significant property dammage threat is not an issue then why does every dept in westchester need all the apparatus it has? Based on that statement alone, do we need all of the FD's (and stations and rigs) we have?
If politician did a risk/benefit assesment they would figure we would be better in some communities with no FD and pay the next dept over to come to the 1 call every few days. Politicians do risk/benefit assesments for there career, not for the safety of the community. If they think funding a new tower ladder in a VFD that does not need one will get them reelected then they will get a new TL.
If you ask that way, of course they will never go for it. One County in S.C. showed that going county wide and career dropped the ISO rating from a 9 to a 5, saving each property about $800/yr in fire insurance while increasing the fire tax by $300, they put it to a vote and everyone is saving money today.
You are right it wont happen here, because we will fight to keep our depts. seperate, even if we can not meet the needs, because we are way to proud of the "great" job we are doing.
The reason taxes are #1 in Westchester is because the pleasure of our communities is to do it this way, because they do not understand that the rest of the country does it for a fraction of the cost (this is mostly school tax, but every tax contributes).

They set up the Albany Team....thats all the $$$$
It is not possible to train everybody. Particularly if you want them to be competent. Consider how hard it is to train all member to be competent as firefighters, then double it.

Yes its covered a couple of different areas, but look at the title: "Would you still volunteer"? that could cover a number of different areas, as we have seen.
It is too bad that you can not see the positive info:
1) We have learned that the dedicated volunteers do not need blue lights and they feel they may do more harm then good.
2) We have learned that the dedicated volunteers do not need LOSAP and they feel they may do more harm then good.
3) We have learned that some members are very honest about their departments and are willing to discuse it.
I am still waiting to hear if anyone can show any positive effect LOSAP have had on VFD's?
Yes, there are a lot of reasons why people volunteer, why they stay and why they go. I also think the reasons are very different for those under 21 as for those in other age groups. In the past I have noticed that the under 21 group are the ones who put $4,000 lightbars on $2,000 cars (can you still get cars for that price?). The older group has less concern with lights.
A lot of career firefighters, including myself where volunteers. Some still are, others have moved on. We do understand and in my case I left over a year before getting called to my career dept. I left because of the level of BS (lights, training, attendance, drinking in the firehouse during calls, etc.) funny how many of those issues are still being debated 25 years later. As a note I think my former VFD has resolved many of those issues, but only in the last 10 years.