Bnechis

GREAT QUESTION!
NFPA standards are considered consencus standards. That means they must be "accepted" by some level of government to become law.
The level of government can be Federal, State, or Local and can be "accepted" by an of the 3 branches: executive, legislative or judicial.
Many NFPA standards for building construction have been accepted or mandated by NYS Codes Div. (state executive) making them law.
Turnout gear NFPA standards are set by FED OSHA (& NYS PESH) (both executive, fed & state)
Bailout rope NFPA standards were mandated by NYS Legislative and enforced by NYS executive.
The NYS courts have "accepted" most if not all consencus standards, unless a law supercedes it.
Now to the heart of your question:
NFPA 1403 has been accepted by NYS OFPC (executive) and turned into state law. Allowing it to be used in the courts.
NFPA 1710 has not been accepted by any state as a standard. It is slowly starting to crop up in civil litigation. Once it hits the NY courts during civil liability it most likely will be accepted by the courts, unless the defendant (the FD or municipality) can prove they were following a comperable consencus standard (there are none).
NYS law does not allow career firefighters to sue their employeers for injury or death and that is extended to cover thier families.
Who is the most likely plantif? A civilian who has a fire loss, an insurance company that wants to be covered for its loss, or a firefighter from another community who is hurt going mutual aid into an under staffed dept? I dont know, but at some point I suspect some smart lawyer will figure out its worth some bucks, until then municipalities will continue the gamble that they are saving $$$.

GREAT QUESTION!
NFPA standards are considered consencus standards. That means they must be "accepted" by some level of government to become law.
The level of government can be Federal, State, or Local and can be "accepted" by an of the 3 branches: executive, legislative or judicial.
Many NFPA standards for building construction have been accepted or mandated by NYS Codes Div. (state executive) making them law.
Turnout gear NFPA standards are set by FED OSHA (& NYS PESH) (both executive, fed & state)
Bailout rope NFPA standards were mandated by NYS Legislative and enforced by NYS executive.
The NYS courts have "accepted" most if not all consencus standards, unless a law supercedes it.
Now to the heart of your question:
NFPA 1403 has been accepted by NYS OFPC (executive) and turned into state law. Allowing it to be used in the courts.
NFPA 1710 has not been accepted by any state as a standard. It is slowly starting to crop up in civil litigation. Once it hits the NY courts during civil liability it most likely will be accepted by the courts, unless the defendant (the FD or municipality) can prove they were following a comperable consencus standard (there are none).
NYS law does not allow career firefighters to sue their employeers for injury or death and that is extended to cover thier families.
Who is the most likely plantif? A civilian who has a fire loss, an insurance company that wants to be covered for its loss, or a firefighter from another community who is hurt going mutual aid into an under staffed dept? I dont know, but at some point I suspect some smart lawyer will figure out its worth some bucks, until then municipalities will continue the gamble that they are saving $$$.

Agreed and that plan is or should be the mutual aid plan.
Agreed, but 1st we need to define an alarm. How many engines, trucks, and support units and how many firefighters (note: I did not say interior, because everyone else is just a helper) and officers make up that 1st alarm? By almost any standard, its a minimum of 2 engines and 1 truck (or squad, if laddering is not an issue based on construction, these members are assigned truck functions)and a minimum of 16 firefighters and officers.
Many depts that send 3,4 or more units on a 1st alarm consider a 2nd alarm another 1 or 2. This is wrong. If you do not have enough rigs to double the 1st alarm, then you can not send a 2nd alarm without mutual aid. We have forgotten how fire alarms were historically established:
Before radios and phones fire telegraph street boxes was the way we got called. Every box had a number, when someone activated the box the number was transmitted (to horns on the fire station, bells in the fire station, and to tapes). The number was sounded (same as some VFD's that still have horns) and based on the box number, you would look on the wall (or in a little book) to determine what rigs went and where to box was located. Once on scene if the chief decided he needed more help he would send a ff to reset the 1st box or run down the road to the next box to strick the "2nd Alarm". When this number came across and you looked up on the wall it told you who went, if the 1st due was alread out. If the 1st alarm was 2 steamers, 2 hose wagons and a city service truck, then thats what was also sent on the 2nd, because you did not know till you got onscene if you were going to help or you were going to another incident just down the road from the 1st. We need to follow our history on this one, instead of trying to make do with less and less.
Of the 58 departments in Westchester, which ones send that many interior ff's + supervisor per rig to calls in there own district 24/7/365? I think its a little unrealistict to have dept's send more help on M/A then it sends to its own calls.

That is correct.
FDNY is the only department in the country that ISO rates based on actual fire damage. Everyone else is rated on their potential to minimize damage.
NYC's fire damage rate is very consistant, even if you look at 2001 there is almost no difference in the annual property loss in $$$$. THis is because of the total number of fires citywide. Also FDNY is very agressive at firefighting, but that often means more water damage and other damage to the structure, particularlry when there is minimal salvage work being performed. This is howFDNY prevents full blocks from going, but the insurance industry looks at the total dollar loss not just fire loss.

Thanks to the strong lobbying efforts of both the IAFF and the volunteer fire service (with a special notice of FASNY as the lead in this issue) NFPA has 2 different standards that address this:
NFPA 1710 for career depts requires minimum response times which limits the distance by 4 minutes drive time for the 1st due engine and 8 minutes for the rest of the 1st alarm assignment.
NFPA 1720 for VFD's lets the locals determine what they need.
ISO considers any property beyond 5 miles drive istance to be unprotected. Their standard calls for engines companies within 1.5 miles of all properties and ladders within 2.5 miles. Beyond the 1.5 & 2.5 they prorate the department based on % beyond those distances.
Agreed, this is one of the questions the the Comptroller was concerned with, what happens if the owner (this so called illegaly set up not for profit) no longer wants to rent it to the FD after 10 years? What happens if the principals are sued over this by an angry tax payer?
The report also mentions that the fire commisioners failed to meet other legal requirments, including mandatory training and purchasing in general.

Thanks to the strong lobbying efforts of both the IAFF and the volunteer fire service (with a special notice of FASNY as the lead in this issue) NFPA has 2 different standards that address this:
NFPA 1710 for career depts requires minimum response times which limits the distance by 4 minutes drive time for the 1st due engine and 8 minutes for the rest of the 1st alarm assignment.
NFPA 1720 for VFD's lets the locals determine what they need.
ISO considers any property beyond 5 miles drive istance to be unprotected. Their standard calls for engines companies within 1.5 miles of all properties and ladders within 2.5 miles. Beyond the 1.5 & 2.5 they prorate the department based on % beyond those distances.
Agreed, this is one of the questions the the Comptroller was concerned with, what happens if the owner (this so called illegaly set up not for profit) no longer wants to rent it to the FD after 10 years? What happens if the principals are sued over this by an angry tax payer?
The report also mentions that the fire commisioners failed to meet other legal requirments, including mandatory training and purchasing in general.

Thanks to the strong lobbying efforts of both the IAFF and the volunteer fire service (with a special notice of FASNY as the lead in this issue) NFPA has 2 different standards that address this:
NFPA 1710 for career depts requires minimum response times which limits the distance by 4 minutes drive time for the 1st due engine and 8 minutes for the rest of the 1st alarm assignment.
NFPA 1720 for VFD's lets the locals determine what they need.
ISO considers any property beyond 5 miles drive istance to be unprotected. Their standard calls for engines companies within 1.5 miles of all properties and ladders within 2.5 miles. Beyond the 1.5 & 2.5 they prorate the department based on % beyond those distances.
Agreed, this is one of the questions the the Comptroller was concerned with, what happens if the owner (this so called illegaly set up not for profit) no longer wants to rent it to the FD after 10 years? What happens if the principals are sued over this by an angry tax payer?
The report also mentions that the fire commisioners failed to meet other legal requirments, including mandatory training and purchasing in general.

Its the economy....thugs cant aford slugs.....blades are reusable and no greenhouse gasses so these thugs are going green

Solid waste is what the County BOL is full of.
County Exec elect Astorino, suggested consolidation over 4 years ago and the BOL & Spano told him to get lost. THey did nothing to rain in costs, expanding every department.
Now Asterino wins, and many including "boss" Ryan almost get booted and in less than 4 weeks and without any study they manage to reorganize the entire managment structure of county government. I found it particularly interesting that they got rid of positions that are vacant and claimed the savings. THey also got rid of positions that actually bring money into the county.
The new CE takes office in less than 3 weeks and the BOL needs to prove they can get the job done fast, since they have done nothing in the past 12 years. The Asterino transition team has hundreds of people looking at every department in the county to evaluate what is the best way to make this happen.
Mel Brooks said it best (as Governor William J. Le Petomane in Blazing Saddles):
Holy underwear! Sheriff murdered! Innocent women and children blown to bits! We have to protect our phoney baloney jobs here, gentlemen! We must do something about this immediately! Immediately! Immediately! Harrumph! Harrumph! Harrumph!

The transition team is not just looking to cut. It was charged with evaluating what works & what does not work & to give CE Astorino a "snap shot" of everything and an initial road map.
Very well said. Rumors do not help anyone.
That being said, I still didn't get a Harrumph out of that guy!
Tonight News 12 reported that Spano is against the BOL, last minute try, and I heard other members of the board are also against it. Lets just wait and see what the CE elect comes up with.

The transition team is not just looking to cut. It was charged with evaluating what works & what does not work & to give CE Astorino a "snap shot" of everything and an initial road map.
Very well said. Rumors do not help anyone.
That being said, I still didn't get a Harrumph out of that guy!
Tonight News 12 reported that Spano is against the BOL, last minute try, and I heard other members of the board are also against it. Lets just wait and see what the CE elect comes up with.

According to "M": Missles behind the headlights, a rotating licence plate, the ability to drop oil, stars or smoke and an ejection seat for the officer.
or






The light tower has 6 750 watt lights (left & right side can be adjusted independent of each other, so they can actually shine in opposite each other). The tower also has an automatic electric field monitor (the grey box on top of it) and a radar to prevent the tower from hitting anything or getting within 8 feet of powerlines.

The top....Crane, boat, light tower, storage and the "Hippo" power unit (white box in right rear corner of body).
THe Hipo unit powers 2 low volume (40cfm) air hoses, 2 hi volume(185cfm) air hoses (to run jack hammers, an air knife and dirt vacume and 2 10gpm hydraulic lines that run our stanley hydraulic tools (concrete chain saw, jack hammer, and pumps). The pumps move 1,600 gpm and unlike drafting have a lift of up to 35 feet at 100 feet from the rig.

According to "M": Missles behind the headlights, a rotating licence plate, the ability to drop oil, stars or smoke and an ejection seat for the officer.
or






The light tower has 6 750 watt lights (left & right side can be adjusted independent of each other, so they can actually shine in opposite each other). The tower also has an automatic electric field monitor (the grey box on top of it) and a radar to prevent the tower from hitting anything or getting within 8 feet of powerlines.

The top....Crane, boat, light tower, storage and the "Hippo" power unit (white box in right rear corner of body).
THe Hipo unit powers 2 low volume (40cfm) air hoses, 2 hi volume(185cfm) air hoses (to run jack hammers, an air knife and dirt vacume and 2 10gpm hydraulic lines that run our stanley hydraulic tools (concrete chain saw, jack hammer, and pumps). The pumps move 1,600 gpm and unlike drafting have a lift of up to 35 feet at 100 feet from the rig.