16fire5

It appears that most of the PD - FD highway incidents involve Troopers, and they are trained far away from the situation you list above. I have witnessed a couple of incidents over the past 25 years and we have been able to resolve them (in one case by leaving the trooper to fight the car fire) or after the incident by advising the NYS Thruway Authority to never call us again as we will not respond on their road if the Troopers (that they contract & pay for) are going to put our personnel in grave danger. When we have done this the response has always been we please continue, we will take care of it. And that tends to last for the next 5-10 years.
The # of incidents that we respond to on the highways is very small and of those, many do not require total closing of the road and most of the we clear in under to minutes. The # of AI's will dramatically increase if we dont properly safe guard our personnel.
This week I was at the FDSOA conference (Fire Dept. Safety Officers Association) and this topic was discused at length. What was interesting is that NIOSH investigators showed us federal documents that responders, including L.E. have died failing to block traffic. Then a a lawyer who is nationally well know for municipal liability cases shoed us how he would go after the FD Officer, the FD & the municipality who failed to follow these safety concepts and the LEO and his/her agency. He also said to please contact him if this happens as its a slam dunk (and he needs a new pool).
The reason its funded (along with the HV transportaion center) is failing to keep traffic moving increases air polution and the state will lose billions in federal aid if they fail to deal with it.
This is very true. Now lets look at this on a local issue. The I-95 toll at New Rochelle collects $45,000 per hour (average as of a few years ago). We have suggested a number of fire safety upgrades including water supplies to the tool plaza. The costs would have been covered with just a few hours of tools, but since we asked the tolls have been closed for 2-3x that time because of truck fires that we did not have enough water to deal with. It would have been paid for in a few years, but would last for 50+ years. What would the cost to the NYS-TA be if a fire damages the road (particularly a bridge)?

I think the birds you overheard are nothing more than rumors.
The advantage is huge due to the promotional nature the city is able to hire the entire list prior to those that are on the open list. This equates to someone on the promotional list with a 70 being hired before the 100s on the open list. Also prior to switching to the CPAT you could fail 2 stations on the agility and still have a technically passing grade. While this was the case for the open exam few if any canidates were ever hired from the open exam that did not have a 100 on the physical. In my opinion it should have been pass/fail and failure of any of the stations should have resulted in disqualifications.

That's an engine not a truck.

It's obvious from the posts that there are different feelings out there on ventilation. There are very few if any always and nevers in the fire service. For a laundry list of reasons vertical ventilation early is real good. Now the always above the fire is nice but there are times when it's not doable like when it's sagging under your boots.
Now for the coordination of horizontal ventilation we allow the 1st truck officer to coordinate/control. I see a few benifits to this and for the most part has and does work very well for us. First it eliminates the IC as a middle man in the conversation between inside and outside. Most importantly the 1st ladder company officer is in the apartment and knows conditions best i.e. heat, fire location, life hazard, ect. One thing is for sure fires reach flashover much faster than they did before so the stakes are higher. Generally I hold off taking the rest of the windows in the apartment until the water is there. But that is a general statement I think ventilation is one of the hardest things to fully grasp and experience is key. It's a topic in the fire service that would be real hard to teach from a book. There are times when I would vent additional windows besides the fire room but it would be for a victim I was looking for and it would be a calculated risk. Lets face it if we are told a victim is a certin room and it is next to the fire, VESing it in an attempt to save a life is in my book a good move but risky. As the chief brought up fire duty is way down so the only way to learn is pay attention at every fire you go to. Regardless of you position find out from the OV what they did and how it worked.
Also in refernece to the fire that started this thread it's quite apparant that there was an understaffed first alarm which probably left jobs undone in a timely manner.

These are photos of Rombout Fire Departments structure fire that occurred at 226 Windsor Rd just before midnight on Sunday. Firefighters arrived to find fire through the roof of a ~ 4500 sq ft residence with high winds, heavy snow, white-out conditions, and near zero wind chill ...... Perfect weather for firefighting....... Firefighters apparently attempted an interior attack but were forced to retreat due to insufficent water and rapid fire spread due to the high winds...... I arrived as Command advised that they were going defensive....... I had a tough time keeping my lens free of snow and debris due to the high winds and only shot with one of two cameras I normally shoot with as a result...... This was clearly a frustrating fire for all who were there.....

A shot from the front...... Hughsonvilles FAST Team and Village of Fishkill......

It was snowing heavily and very windy.......

Hey, I found a hot spot........

A shot from the rear..... These guys were inside under the fire but had to pull out due to rapidly deteriorating conditions......

Insurmountable odds.....

With the wind fanning the fire and water issues.... Crews were ordered to pull back their lines and were clearly frustrated that they were defeated .....

This is shot of the Central Hudson gas man..... He had just retrieved the power meter but said "I killed the power but It's up to guys to turn off the gas.... It's too damn hot!"

While a tanker shuttle was being initiated, Rombout's Tower gets set up......

Village of Fishkill firefighters watch as 62-45 hits the fire......

The end.....

One of the best things about our job (volly, carreer, paid on call, whatever) is the blind admiration that the kids have for us. If you don't wave back shame on you. So that's why the addition of the balls was a bad move. The small interactions you have with the public when out and about can have great benifits down the road in budget or staffing battles.
Plenty of tricks still go on but PPE, apparatus, and equipment should be off limits.

One of the best things about our job (volly, carreer, paid on call, whatever) is the blind admiration that the kids have for us. If you don't wave back shame on you. So that's why the addition of the balls was a bad move. The small interactions you have with the public when out and about can have great benifits down the road in budget or staffing battles.
Plenty of tricks still go on but PPE, apparatus, and equipment should be off limits.

One of the best things about our job (volly, carreer, paid on call, whatever) is the blind admiration that the kids have for us. If you don't wave back shame on you. So that's why the addition of the balls was a bad move. The small interactions you have with the public when out and about can have great benifits down the road in budget or staffing battles.
Plenty of tricks still go on but PPE, apparatus, and equipment should be off limits.

Don't put words in my mouth. We all know they have other duties, but when all these boats are staffed on weekdays, and the price of gas is high, there are hardly any vessels on the river and LE outnumbers the public. I'm stating that I believe there is enforcement overkill at times. In the same vain most weekends could use the high LE prescense.

Newburgh had these staffing levels in the 80s and early 90s due to fiscal issued and layoffs. The change to day is 2 in/2 out. With 7 responding. 1 IC and 1 engine chauffeur and 1 truck chauffeur you are down to 4. 2 of the 4 must stay out side as the safety team. The department will be reduced to being able to send 2 members into standard working fires. This will not be an effective fire department. Some on here may disagree but the chaffeurs and the IC should not be part of the safety team. The city has made the decision to not provide fire protection and they will have to live with it. The fire officers should not unduly risk their members because the city put them in that position.

Barry, thanks for all of your informative posts. You have always been the go-to guy when it comes down to it.
One word here: CONSOLIDATION! Barry, i think even you could/would agree with me on this lol.

The lawn generally is not a good place for the jacks, but it is not uncommon for a good truck driver to put it there. As long as you extend the ladder inline with the rig its not a big problem (i.e. over the cab or over the rear). Also good idea to have the number for a heavy wrecker available, as it is not uncommon to need one to get the ladder out.
Remember you can stretch hose, but not ladders.

If you don't have a truck having one on the box is a good idea. It seems an increasing number of chimney fire become structure fires these days. Probably because chimneys get older and the mortar and other materials deteriorate over time. So sending a full first alarm assignment is warranted.
I would cover these bases.
Inside Team: Gain entry, put down a tarp in front of the fireplace, remove the contents of the fire box, report condition to command, use the TIC to check the run of the chimney for indications of extension.
Roof Team: Get up to the roof have a roof ladder or two if your not operating off an aerial or tower. Remove the cap. Drop ziplock bags with full of ABC powder into the chimney to extinguish the fire. Thin non freezer bags are thin and melt quickly to extinguish the fire. Many places have chains to clear blockages. I would use them if necessary to get the fire out but be careful the last thing you want to do is cause damage that will allow the fire to extend. Also remember it's not your job to clean the chimney for the resident just put the fire out.
Additional Staff: Standby to stretch a hoseline, search the upper floors with the TIC for extension, RIT.
I will say that I have seen it done multiple ways and the way I described it above is what I personally found to be the most effective, professional, and safe. There are multiple methods and most work but the above way is least likely to damage the chimney and possibly cause extension.
Some other methods.
Misting nozzle: Idea is to steam out the fire with a small amount of water and not crack the flue. While this works I don't see the benifit over the ziplock bags. Add this to the manuvering you have to do on the roof to get it down the chimney its more difficult and increases the chance of falling off the roof. Also unless your connections are perfect water will leak onto the roof and potentially freeze causing additional hazards.
Application of a can or dry chem up the chimney: Can may crack the chimney. ABC undoubtedly will push back a little and make a mess. Both usually work because the natural flow of air carries the agent up the chimney.
Chimney Flares: Only have seen this method used once and it was not that effective. Others may have better experience.
Hope that answers your questions. If you have more ask. I'll get on after the Jet Game.

If you don't have a truck having one on the box is a good idea. It seems an increasing number of chimney fire become structure fires these days. Probably because chimneys get older and the mortar and other materials deteriorate over time. So sending a full first alarm assignment is warranted.
I would cover these bases.
Inside Team: Gain entry, put down a tarp in front of the fireplace, remove the contents of the fire box, report condition to command, use the TIC to check the run of the chimney for indications of extension.
Roof Team: Get up to the roof have a roof ladder or two if your not operating off an aerial or tower. Remove the cap. Drop ziplock bags with full of ABC powder into the chimney to extinguish the fire. Thin non freezer bags are thin and melt quickly to extinguish the fire. Many places have chains to clear blockages. I would use them if necessary to get the fire out but be careful the last thing you want to do is cause damage that will allow the fire to extend. Also remember it's not your job to clean the chimney for the resident just put the fire out.
Additional Staff: Standby to stretch a hoseline, search the upper floors with the TIC for extension, RIT.
I will say that I have seen it done multiple ways and the way I described it above is what I personally found to be the most effective, professional, and safe. There are multiple methods and most work but the above way is least likely to damage the chimney and possibly cause extension.
Some other methods.
Misting nozzle: Idea is to steam out the fire with a small amount of water and not crack the flue. While this works I don't see the benifit over the ziplock bags. Add this to the manuvering you have to do on the roof to get it down the chimney its more difficult and increases the chance of falling off the roof. Also unless your connections are perfect water will leak onto the roof and potentially freeze causing additional hazards.
Application of a can or dry chem up the chimney: Can may crack the chimney. ABC undoubtedly will push back a little and make a mess. Both usually work because the natural flow of air carries the agent up the chimney.
Chimney Flares: Only have seen this method used once and it was not that effective. Others may have better experience.
Hope that answers your questions. If you have more ask. I'll get on after the Jet Game.

If you don't have a truck having one on the box is a good idea. It seems an increasing number of chimney fire become structure fires these days. Probably because chimneys get older and the mortar and other materials deteriorate over time. So sending a full first alarm assignment is warranted.
I would cover these bases.
Inside Team: Gain entry, put down a tarp in front of the fireplace, remove the contents of the fire box, report condition to command, use the TIC to check the run of the chimney for indications of extension.
Roof Team: Get up to the roof have a roof ladder or two if your not operating off an aerial or tower. Remove the cap. Drop ziplock bags with full of ABC powder into the chimney to extinguish the fire. Thin non freezer bags are thin and melt quickly to extinguish the fire. Many places have chains to clear blockages. I would use them if necessary to get the fire out but be careful the last thing you want to do is cause damage that will allow the fire to extend. Also remember it's not your job to clean the chimney for the resident just put the fire out.
Additional Staff: Standby to stretch a hoseline, search the upper floors with the TIC for extension, RIT.
I will say that I have seen it done multiple ways and the way I described it above is what I personally found to be the most effective, professional, and safe. There are multiple methods and most work but the above way is least likely to damage the chimney and possibly cause extension.
Some other methods.
Misting nozzle: Idea is to steam out the fire with a small amount of water and not crack the flue. While this works I don't see the benifit over the ziplock bags. Add this to the manuvering you have to do on the roof to get it down the chimney its more difficult and increases the chance of falling off the roof. Also unless your connections are perfect water will leak onto the roof and potentially freeze causing additional hazards.
Application of a can or dry chem up the chimney: Can may crack the chimney. ABC undoubtedly will push back a little and make a mess. Both usually work because the natural flow of air carries the agent up the chimney.
Chimney Flares: Only have seen this method used once and it was not that effective. Others may have better experience.
Hope that answers your questions. If you have more ask. I'll get on after the Jet Game.

If you don't have a truck having one on the box is a good idea. It seems an increasing number of chimney fire become structure fires these days. Probably because chimneys get older and the mortar and other materials deteriorate over time. So sending a full first alarm assignment is warranted.
I would cover these bases.
Inside Team: Gain entry, put down a tarp in front of the fireplace, remove the contents of the fire box, report condition to command, use the TIC to check the run of the chimney for indications of extension.
Roof Team: Get up to the roof have a roof ladder or two if your not operating off an aerial or tower. Remove the cap. Drop ziplock bags with full of ABC powder into the chimney to extinguish the fire. Thin non freezer bags are thin and melt quickly to extinguish the fire. Many places have chains to clear blockages. I would use them if necessary to get the fire out but be careful the last thing you want to do is cause damage that will allow the fire to extend. Also remember it's not your job to clean the chimney for the resident just put the fire out.
Additional Staff: Standby to stretch a hoseline, search the upper floors with the TIC for extension, RIT.
I will say that I have seen it done multiple ways and the way I described it above is what I personally found to be the most effective, professional, and safe. There are multiple methods and most work but the above way is least likely to damage the chimney and possibly cause extension.
Some other methods.
Misting nozzle: Idea is to steam out the fire with a small amount of water and not crack the flue. While this works I don't see the benifit over the ziplock bags. Add this to the manuvering you have to do on the roof to get it down the chimney its more difficult and increases the chance of falling off the roof. Also unless your connections are perfect water will leak onto the roof and potentially freeze causing additional hazards.
Application of a can or dry chem up the chimney: Can may crack the chimney. ABC undoubtedly will push back a little and make a mess. Both usually work because the natural flow of air carries the agent up the chimney.
Chimney Flares: Only have seen this method used once and it was not that effective. Others may have better experience.
Hope that answers your questions. If you have more ask. I'll get on after the Jet Game.

If you don't have a truck having one on the box is a good idea. It seems an increasing number of chimney fire become structure fires these days. Probably because chimneys get older and the mortar and other materials deteriorate over time. So sending a full first alarm assignment is warranted.
I would cover these bases.
Inside Team: Gain entry, put down a tarp in front of the fireplace, remove the contents of the fire box, report condition to command, use the TIC to check the run of the chimney for indications of extension.
Roof Team: Get up to the roof have a roof ladder or two if your not operating off an aerial or tower. Remove the cap. Drop ziplock bags with full of ABC powder into the chimney to extinguish the fire. Thin non freezer bags are thin and melt quickly to extinguish the fire. Many places have chains to clear blockages. I would use them if necessary to get the fire out but be careful the last thing you want to do is cause damage that will allow the fire to extend. Also remember it's not your job to clean the chimney for the resident just put the fire out.
Additional Staff: Standby to stretch a hoseline, search the upper floors with the TIC for extension, RIT.
I will say that I have seen it done multiple ways and the way I described it above is what I personally found to be the most effective, professional, and safe. There are multiple methods and most work but the above way is least likely to damage the chimney and possibly cause extension.
Some other methods.
Misting nozzle: Idea is to steam out the fire with a small amount of water and not crack the flue. While this works I don't see the benifit over the ziplock bags. Add this to the manuvering you have to do on the roof to get it down the chimney its more difficult and increases the chance of falling off the roof. Also unless your connections are perfect water will leak onto the roof and potentially freeze causing additional hazards.
Application of a can or dry chem up the chimney: Can may crack the chimney. ABC undoubtedly will push back a little and make a mess. Both usually work because the natural flow of air carries the agent up the chimney.
Chimney Flares: Only have seen this method used once and it was not that effective. Others may have better experience.
Hope that answers your questions. If you have more ask. I'll get on after the Jet Game.

What's sad is that the county continues to maintain a hazmat team when you have a federal fire department in the county well staffed and equipped. Training level is not even a question.

I saw the video and it's obvious the officers are out numbered by drunkin college students failing to comply with their orders. They have just had to shoot the driver of a car attempting to kill them because he was probably worried about getting a DWI. I would spend more time thinking about how the officers viewed the situation and in that light their actions appear completly in line with the situation(s) they were confronted with.

My heart goes out to the officers involved. It is very tough for me to read the comments from the public in general in fourms. The officers involved in 2 shootings in the past week in Westchester were presented with situations that immediatly threatened their lives and others. In the end both acted quickly and decisivly and have their lives because of it. It is unfortunate that there appears to be a large section of the public that just dosen't get it.

I have read some material from Mr. Stevens and he seems to have undertood the ISO rating schedule better than ISO.

There was at least one Saturday I remeber where there was over a dozzen memorial services and probably close to 20. We were stretched very thin. From the worst we get the best of people as was the case here with FF Rockhill who did his part to give FF Bucca a proper send off. With so much going on at the time the little things like this went largly unnoticed. Thanks for the story Cap.

As already said there is no reason to be on this roof. Plenty of hazards the pitch, the near certainity of lightweight construction, and the proposed prencence of photovoltaic panels. UL is conducting a study funded by DHS to study the dangers to firefighters posed by photovoltaic panels. They may carry high voltage and may be very difficult to isolate power to.
http://www.ul.com/global/documents/corporate/aboutul/publications/newsletters/fire/fsa_issue_2_2010.pdf
If a firefighter did make their way to the roof with the saw and start cutting it is very easy to cut through the top flange of the steel bar joists and the spacing between joists increases the chance of a firefighter being dumped into the hole through which they are trying to cut.

A member who thinks of others before themself makes a good firefighter. I always found that the whole thing starts falling apart when people worry too much about themselves and forget about the team, company, firehouse. If a guy shirks his duties when it comes to house work are we really going to trust him to get the roof.

First, what's going on here is that people are asking questions about problems which they are seeing from pictures and listening to from radio chatter which most of the writers on bravo find offensive. Secondly, everyone is also putting these questions in a format that other people on this website can never handle because they're being told what was done wrong instead of suggesting what could be improved for the next incident.
Instead of people ranting about what they don't like about Briarcliff's operation, they should put their opinions in a more constructive format... and for that matter, the people answering the questions should exert a little more control over themselves before getting all riled up for nothing!
I wasn't at this job so i cannot comment on the operation of this fire...However, maybe all the Departments in Westchester County can start by putting written orders into 60 control's CAD system for automatic dispatching policies. This in itself would solve the major debacle going on in many small communities at most major fires in this microcosm we call Wastechester!
Putting a truck in front or as near to a private dwelling fire or any other structural fire for at least the use of its ground ladders and specialized equipment is always a great idea. We don't necessarily need the aerial at this job but we're gonna VES the hell outta the bldg. more quickly and more efficiently with a couple of 24' extention ladders!
As for 5" across a street, with water loss or any imminent water problems, you do whatever you have to do to make sure there is a positive continuation of water for anyone working inside (especially those working above a fire). With that said, anyone experiencing water problems should be on the air giving an urgent to the IC with confirmation back from him that he and everyone else is aware of the situation.
As far as a FAST Truck goes, at minimum!, 2 firefighters need to be fully geared and ready to go to work outside of the IDLH if there are members operating inside of any area that is going to labelled as an IDLH atmosphere. If the IC decides he wants to relieve them with an additional team, that's his decision. But remember that the original FAST truck has hopefully been there since operations commenced and they know exactly what is going on from the start of the incident to the incident/fire being placed under control. If the incident is prolonged, they should be complemented with a unit which keeps them hydrated at all times. If they came on a TL which needs to immediately be placed into service for whatever reason, that's a different story... for another day. But note that if this does occur, we still need to keep the 2 in 2 out minimum in affect at all times until and additional FAST truck arrives.
Lastly, if anybody, whether a chief, lieutenant, or just a regular ff is running any type of prolonged operation where the men are going to be exerting themselves or overexerting themselves he/she should think of having at least 2 ambulances (BLS and ALS) and a rehab unit on scene--one bus for standby purposes and one for transport.
That's my 2 and i hope this thread doesn't go for another 10 or 20 pages like the rest of them do.
Stay safe everyone!