helicopper

Yes they do conduct training and if I remember correctly they do it on a rotating basis within municipalities that have stations on their lines. What I'm about to discuss is in no way a dig at the MTA and the drills conducted, but the way in which they are conducted. Which I'm not saying anything knew as I grew up around Spanky and have discussed this with him at length.
First...why is it that when there are deficiencies noted in an area of responsibility for an agency often the comments are we need a drill...train us!!? Has anyone requested additional training through the MTA? Has anyone sat down and taken a hard look at their SOP/SOG's for response to an event involving the railroad in their area? Do you even have any? Want the training? Do what you need to get it! If you sit around waiting...then your part of the problem. There are things that can be done with good input from the resources within the MTA, and there are things you can do on your own which involves again SOP/SOG review, doing table tops of incidents at various points within your area, which leads me to my next point.
If you are going to have a drill in your area involving the MTA. Try to be realistic. I have been involved or part of a couple of drills over the past couple of years and I can't believe how unrealistic many departments both fire and EMS operate during them. How can you realistically judge where you are if you were to have an event, when you staff apparatus by filling every seat when that hardly ever if not never happens during your normal day to day operations? Or you don't allow your members to park their cars in the area, but again realistically, they are going to show up with the blue and green light parade along with the y'all comers to take pictures, video, or to "assist," and park all over potentially choking the area for needed space for ambulance entry/exit, triage/treatment areas, additional apparatus, etc. How long is it going to take to get a good compliment of personnel of both fire and ems to the scene? How long will it take to get a good amount of ambulances? Do you have pre-established staging areas? Landing zones? Multiple Landing zones if you may need multiple medevacs? Control zones to keep civilians and if need be additional responders out of the immediate area if the scene becomes overwhelmed with too many resources? An area for the press? Established PIO's to disseminate information?
There are things that can be planned and exercised long before train cars are filled up with fake smoke or simulated a catastrophic event that can pave the way to future successful exercises and god forbidding a true event. Many of us on the Hudson Line have training stations with extremely limited access and egress that could make an event with a large amount of patients difficult to coordinate....so in the meantime while your awaiting a drill from the MTA...
what have you done?

Thank you for not taking this personally and engaging in honest debate.
First, I would like to ask you not to make this thread out as some sort of battle or comparison between career (what you refer to as "paid") and volunteer firefighters / fire departments. It was not intended as such. To elaborate a bit on my problem with you referring to career firefighters as "paid", I would remind you that it is volunteers who often insist on being referred to as professional and I have always understood the point. You most certainly can be professional regardless of whether or not you are a career member. By the same token, you can be unprofessional even if you are doing something as your career. However, career firefighters are not the only firefighters who are paid as we have discussed in the past...many volunteer firefighters accept pay in the way of pensions, tax breaks and many other financial and other benefits.
Again, I appreciate you providing specific information in regard to how the parade issue affestc your department and the public you are sworn to protect and I will take you at your word. However, from what I can tell, this is still a very serious issue with many, if not most, volunteer departments who choose to participate in parades, as attested to by many volunteer firefighters right here on this website.
Also, in just now rereading your post as welll as KCRD's, I am reminded of the importance of there being an adequate response of trained firefighters in the initial stages of a fire. Counting the number of responders who actually showed up at some point during a fire is not really an accurate indicator of the effectiveness of the response. You mentioned several incidents wherein you gave numbers of Firefighters who responded...do you have numbers for the actual number of fully qualified interior firefighters who showed up in, say, the first eight minutes after the original 911 call was made?
I really do appreciate your post. It was a breath of fresh air. However, sometimes things arre really not as they seem. I really do believe that you truly believe that "what we lack in paid (career) performance is more often than not made up for in brute size", I'm just not convinced.

Mike, you are right on. Look at this thread and who answered. They are all guys with time on the job, experience, and a lot of training. I just hope that the new generation is reading this thread and gaining some knowledge from it. Hopefully, they are not stuck on things like the Stamford situation, fire engine photos, etc.
We have seen 100's of comments on one photo of a guy on a roof with a saw. They picked out dozens of tiny little items in that one photo, but throw up a picture of a train wreck, and all you get is silence.
Like you said, "Something is just not right here."

This is all to serious of a topic, and I am affraid as a proud vollie, that the paid fellows are correct with the exception that not every Dept. or company within a dept. is having problems, but some are more social than firematic and it is a sad and needs to stop - join the elks club or a yacht club to drink and party not a FIREHOUSE those days are over . I see and hear and have witnessed company's do more for a parade than pre-plans , training , rig checks and so on. When someone says something to them, you are a bad guy, or your trying to be a real firefighter or trying to be like the big cities. I would like to say that the people in my company and Dept. are not against taking classes at the different training centers or in house training just some of them. I think it is sad that we can't take parades and turn them into training or atleast the money put towards the parades to buy new equiptment , or the chiefs friends getting new gear without proving themselves to the Dept. and earning the stuff for once, like the good old days. This topic is great on so many levels but will fall on deaf ears like most of the problems. ( without going out on a limb I would have to say that paid and vollie Dept's alike all share the same problems just to different degree's and angles).

There may be issues, but that's not totally my beef. Ever hear of the phrase, "it's not really what you say, but how you say it?" When a person consistently comes online to hammer the same general topics over and over and over and over again, all with a perceived arrogance within the tone of the questions posed ("give me facts," "I want specifics," "I want to know," "I want, I want, I want, give me, give me, give me," etc. and not "thanks for what you do, but I have a question regarding x issue"), it is going to rankle feathers. Yes, I made a couple of "snide" remarks, mainly because this baby crap-on-the-vollies-because-they're-not-truly-part-of-the-brotherhood stuff that has proliferated on here ad-nauseum needs to stop. Every last post of his is nit-picky on the part of the volunteers and after reading it day in and day out, I finally said something. As a volunteer, I take great pride in what I do and I have an awful lot of respect for the people who volunteer in their community, doing so not for a paycheck, but because they want to help their fellow neighbor. Now, just like how I would probably encounter the crapstorm of a lifetime if I came on here and consistently had something nit-picky to say about career guys - for instance maybe saying something like how career fire fighters sit around all day watching TV, doing nothing except waiting for the next job to come in (which, for the record is NOT my belief) - I think it should work the other way, too. QTIPs generally only go so far until they start invading the brain, at which time they usually become rather irritating.

It occurred to me while reading this thread that only career members are bashed for having raised concerns over this issue. There have been a few brave volunteers who agreed and said there are issues regarding manning but not a word is said about them. Apparently its okay for one of our own(vollies) to point out faults, but when someone from the evil otherside (career) says them, they are classified as "anti-volly" and other such things. I applaud these brave few, JFLYNN and others for shedding light on these issues so some of us less-informed can learn.

I'm pretty sure most people on this site can agree there are issues with response times and staffing. We can talk about it on emtbravo all day long. Until its brought up in a venue where the right people see it don't expect a change.

If I came up in your face and consistently asked for the above, I'm willing to bet that you'd tell me exactly where I could go. And who are you to say that anyone other than yourself or members of your own department are providing an inferior service? Are you at every other fire that occurs, critiquing them in the instant moment, or do you rely solely on what you read in an effort to call another department's response and service shoddy? See? This is the exact core of the problem that I raised. Unless you're at every single instance of a fire, which is impossible, then you cannot beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt say that anyone other than yourself provided any kind of service, good or bad.

1) Can you show which post or posts have been claiming that any department (by name, type or community) is inferior?
2) Cheif Flynn asked about coverage and found out that some depts go to Lake george and later on found that they go for 4 days. Again, does this claim they are providing shoddy service? If they are covering there districts then the only question is do they tell the taxpayers that this is something the dept spends there tax money on?
3) Do you really need to go to every fire to know if a dept is doing a good job? Or can you listen to 60 Control toning them out for the 3rd time for any available driver, or see here that it took 5 departments to respond to a 1 line fire? Or look at there state fire training records (which are available to every MTO) and see that there are depts that are not even meeting the minimum standards that the law requires. Or looking at the ISO ratings that show how many depts are scoring 20% on an open book test (at last count i think it was 32 depts in Westchester that were ISO 9 or Partial 9).

1.) See KCRD's post from 11:11 this morning. He says it, using the word inferior. I raised that issue back at him.
2.) See KCRD's post from 11:11 this morning. Again, he uses the word inferior. I substituted the word shoddy in this instance.
3.) Who appointed you, JFlynn, or your respective "boys" the judges and juries with respect to how a department other than your own is doing? Don't you think that's the business of each other departments' Chiefs, Board of Fire Commissioners, Members, and most importantly, residents themselves? Unless you or a loved one lives in a district that you know provides inferior service (again, KCRD's word), why is there the constant gripe about what the volunteers do, their staffing issues, their response times, and all the other bullcrap? I've met paid guys who are worth their salt and I've met volunteers who are worth their salt. Conversely, I've met some paid guys who are pretty useless and I've met some volunteers who are pretty useless. That said, no one can paint the opposing side with a broad brush. And that includes coming on here and demanding to know answers to questions that have been killed ten times over in the past. How would you like it if I listened to 60 one day when you were getting slammed and I came on here to raise questions about YOUR department? I'm pretty sure it would piss you off. And I'm pretty sure it would piss you off if I came on here every third day to talk smack - in general - about your "brothers." We all put the wet stuff on the red stuff, we're all "brothers;" who gives a flying crap what side of the line we're on, and who gives a flying crap about a parade? Don't you think department leadership is responsible enough to maybe perhaps CANCEL their participation in the particular parade if it came to light that their immediate jurisdiction was left short? Nobody ever mentioned that, now did they?

Now to address some of your points:
1. Its not up to those people you mentioned because most of those people in charge dont want to admit there is a problem.
That would require change and we cant have that. The travesty. The average citizen is also clueless when it comes to this. They are not given the correct info, because if they were, change would've happened already.
2. For the record, I do have loved ones that live in Northern West, Rockland, and CT, so I feel it is my right to be concerned about the the coverage they are recieving. Wether its Fire or EMS.
3. I invite you to listen to the our departments tones and point out flaws. We have some very open-minded chiefs that read this site and would take your objective criticism under consideration. (except JFLYNN -cause he would take it personnal )
4. It has already been pointed out that by this thread that some depts have placed parades and other events above good service.
5. Once everone is trained to same level and there is 1 standard for all, there will only be 1 side. The career vs Vollie arguement will be dead because response times are the same, skills are the same, and most importantly, the public will be better served by US.

The great thing about this site is that if you do not like a particular thread "DON'T READ IT"! Nobody is holding a weapon to your head making you read this thread! or are they? Would there still be negative comments if the question was not from a career Chief? Maybe? With the exception of a few posts about personal feelings on parades no one has made a post directed at anothers pride for being in parades. And with respect FF101, How do you know exactly who reads these threads as a visitor? Sure we can see Bravo members who visited at the bottom but there is no way of knowing who has browsed and sent the link along to the "right" people as you put it, is there? Anything is possible. It is pretty funny as I sit in the shadows reading various threads, KCRD brought up a good point, when a career guy asks a question regarding the volunteer side he is considered a hater/basher, but when a volunteer asks a question he is inindated with info from career guys a majority of the time. But I guess thats how we lower-Westchester Elitists are, just plain foolss to give out info especially is it's not Big City certified.
To everyone that answered the questions, Thanks. This thread has turned off topic- I'm out

Yes he used the word inferior, but I said; "1) Can you show which post or posts have been claiming that any department (by name, type or community) is inferior?" and KCRD said: "Why should someone be thanked for providing an inferior service (career or vollie)?". Can you please tell us which department, type of dept. or community he was talking about from the info provided?
So what is the difference if they are providing shoddy service or inferior service?
shoddy [ˈʃɒdɪ]
1. imitating something of better quality
2. of poor quality; trashy
3. made of shoddy material
inferior [ɪnˈfɪərɪə]
1. lower in value or quality
2. lower in rank, position, or status; subordinate
3. not of the best; mediocre; commonplace
4. lower in position; situated beneath
And that did not answer my question.
1) As an American I do not need to be appointed (thanks to my grand parents and great grand parents for leaving the old world so I would have that right).
2) As a public service using public funds that are paid for with public tax money I do have the right to comment. And yes my tax dollars do find there way into every dept. in Westchester (and beyond).
Yes it clearly is the business of the fire leaders and the membership, but it is clear that some are not taking care of business. There are a number of members of VFD's who have posted here as to how they have tried to change this and some have been able to and others have been forced out, because the leaders or members do not want that. It is even more clear that the public has no idea what level of service is being provided. This is particularly true if the public is never told what level of service is being provided.
I do have family and friends who live in a number of cummunities and I care greatly over them, thank you. I also have many friends who are both volunteer and career firefighters in these departments and I worry about them and the fact that they are placed in even greater danger than members of my dept.
You say this is only about volunteers....I have made these comments about career depts., combo depts and volunteer depts. For me it has never been about volunteer vs. career, it has always been about providing the best service, Thats what I swore I would do when I was sworn in.
So you believe that volunteers and career are on opposing sides, opposing sides of what? all I have been hearing is quality of service issues, are you saying that we are on opposing sides of that?
It has been made clear by a couple of posters that depts who are willing to take apparatus and firefighters to Lake George without providing coverage for days are on opposing side of quality service>
One of the great things about America is you can. One of the things that is great about my department is when we have a problem, we study it and report that problem to the city administration, the mayor and the city council and its often done live, on camera for the community to see and now its available on the internet so our property owners who are out of town can watch. When our firefighters do not feel that those channels are working they have gone to the press and have been out at the supermarkets and railroad station making sure the public knows what the problem is. Now this may not solve the problem, but it can not be said we did not inform the community about what we can and can not do.
It has already been posted that in some depts. the parade is the most important thing and yes if it "Came to light" they might but thats only because they were caught.
Retones are a common part of many dept. procedures, including mine, but when you hear: any available ______ time after time, and then hear them toning mutual aid to cover the call this is not a retone issue.

Now to address some of your points:
1. Its not up to those people you mentioned because most of those people in charge dont want to admit there is a problem.
That would require change and we cant have that. The travesty. The average citizen is also clueless when it comes to this. They are not given the correct info, because if they were, change would've happened already.
2. For the record, I do have loved ones that live in Northern West, Rockland, and CT, so I feel it is my right to be concerned about the the coverage they are recieving. Wether its Fire or EMS.
3. I invite you to listen to the our departments tones and point out flaws. We have some very open-minded chiefs that read this site and would take your objective criticism under consideration. (except JFLYNN -cause he would take it personnal )
4. It has already been pointed out that by this thread that some depts have placed parades and other events above good service.
5. Once everone is trained to same level and there is 1 standard for all, there will only be 1 side. The career vs Vollie arguement will be dead because response times are the same, skills are the same, and most importantly, the public will be better served by US.

Hey KCRD, you write well and you make excellent points...I'm not going to PM you cause I'm having fun trying to guess who you are.
I think it's time we just start ignoring the posts of this particular individual. Let him keep going, he is actually doing a great job of displaying what some of the problems and attitudes are in this particular situation.
Don't worry, people can read and most people on this site are intelligent and reasonable. They (career, volunteer and other) will see the situation and the personalities for what and who they are.
However, let's not stop talking about this very serious issue. I just suggest we just not dignify some of these really off the wall posts and personal posts by engaging in debate.
It is impossible to reason with an unreasonable person.

So, because of a social event, Mohegan (and I say Mohegan only because that was the agency mentioned) has acknowledged that they will be unable to cover EMERGENCY calls within their jurisdiction, and has depleted another agency of both fire protection and EMS coverage. Personally, I don't see how this is beneficial?
Perhaps a better course of action would have been to have this event within their jurisdiction (if that is possible, depending on the type of event I guess) so they can roster a sober crew (if alcohol is being served at this event) to man their first due fire apparatus (I guess, I don't know the first thing about fire department operations) and their first due ambulance.
If the event is outside of their jurisdiction, unfortunately some members should be rostered to cover their first due fire apparatus and ambulance, instead of attending the event. Which takes priority, the social event or providing fire protection and EMS coverage for the residents of our respective districts?

"However, that being said, you mention that people have attempted to "portray" you as "anti-volunteer" on the site "several times". C'mon, Chief, first of all, it's more than "several". The "who, me?" act isn't working too well. Your interrogatories are full of sarcasm, more than a touch of arrogance (I have to admit that I chuckled when I read your boast about how your name on a thread could boost the number of views) and while you hide behind your "QTIP", you take others rebuttals very personally and respond defensively. If there was one or two people that felt you were "anti-volunteer", then maybe it's them, but when there are "numerous" accusations, it may just be that there is a little truth to what they are saying."
It occurred to me while reading this thread that only career members are bashed for having raised concerns over this issue. There have been a few brave volunteers who agreed and said there are issues regarding manning but not a word is said about them. Apparently its okay for one of our own(vollies) to point out faults, but when someone from the evil otherside (career) says them, they are classified as "anti-volly" and other such things. I applaud these brave few, JFLYNN and others for shedding light on these issues so some of us less-informed can learn.

Great thread and some very good comments by all. One thing we should all keep in mind is to determine the cause of the incident before rushing right in here.
Remember in our area (Metro NYC) this may not be a human caused error or just faulty equipment. It is very possible that a scene like this could be the result of a terroristic act. When this happens we have have to approach the scene with assistance from law enforcement also. Bomb Squads, canine units and others must perform physical searches and mitigate in order to make sure no secondary devices are present.
In these types of incidents it is very possible that more than one device may be involved on the same train. I would cautiously recommend that prior to establishing a Command Post, Triage and Staging areas that thought be given to safety from secondary devices. MTA PD, Westchester County DPS and others have plenty of resources to help perform these sweeps. Usually this only takes a few minutes and we train for these situations all the time.
Another thing to keep in mind is that history has shown that if this is happening in one jurisdiction, it is very probable that there will be other events in the region that may occurr simutaneously . It is very important to step back and look at the whole dynamic picture before committing every single resource we have to one location.
IC is so important in a scene like this. Only by using it everday in everything we do will we make this scene work well.
MNR usually holds one mass casualty drill a year in the northern suburbs and I highly recommend that all attend even if only as an observer.
Just my two cents and a great thread for all of us to keep discussing.

In other threads, departments are doing dual response just to get enough players on the field to look like they have a full team. If dual response does not completely cover when everyone is in town, how does it work when each department is running even shorter?
Good idea, better would be FD guides, who also know water supply and building info.
Yes, while some here think this is about vol. FD's, New Rochelle does have parades for Thanksgiving & Memorial Day. The T day parade startes north of the High School and travels all the way down to the south end. We start the parade with E-23, L-13, 2302 & R-4 when the parade gets to garden street, E23 & L13 peel off and E-21, E-22, L-11 & L-12 peel in. All rigs are in there 1st or second due area. And there is never a drop in level of service or an increase in response times.
In addition to the liability for failure to meet service demands, i would think you are proving that some of your fleet may
not be needed, if you can send it out of town. My father (who has nothing to do with emergency services) asked why does every dept. need a tower ladder (he lives in NO. West.), then after taking some of his grand kids to the Ossining Parade, he told me; "now I know, its to compete for a trophy". But what is the cost to the tax payer to buy these units, when the FD figures its ok to take them out of town (sometimes to a dozen parades).
On the same note, I can understand (and love) when a dept has a historical rig that goes to parades, but when you buy the brand new latest & greatest and told the mayor or tax payers that your community cant live without it, how can you take it away from them?
It has been argued that mutual aid in general does not provide the level of protection normally. In fact ISO does not recognize or give credit for mutual aid and even automatic aid is only credited at 90% (with multiple drills and sops)because they realize its not as good.
Very True. While its a long time ago and liability has changed, I remember a volunteer (who regularly posts here) returning from a parade on the back step of a rig and he almost stepped off to get his hat, they were on 684 at the time. Today that would have resulted in a multi million dollar law suit. Note Its not that he is worth it, just what his wife could get for his body.
If people do not know how there own depts function, then we one bshould not bother the chief as he has a lot of work to do....teaching his firefighters how they cover the district when its parade season.
If anyone actually believes this, then this is the justification for mandatory in house rostering of crews, since you need to provide service and you never know when an incident will occur, you can schedule the crews to be there when it does happen.
They must be very proud of these activities, maybe they should have press releases to let the taxpayers know and then the can be as proud also.

Regardless of WHO is asking these questions about response times, staffing levels, parade coverage etc. there ARE problems both career and volunteer. Isn't the ultimate goal making the Fire Service BETTER in the end? either Career or Volunteer fire is fire and seconds count, period. Not everyone on here is well versed in EVERY aspect of the career, volunteer Fire/EMS communities, I for one am not and do take a very small interest on how the other side works. Questions are asked b/c there IS a problem and some on here have confirmed this. I do not believe in the "If we don't talk about a problem, it's not really there" attitude. Bottom Line is it does not matter WHO asks the questions (b/c there are no stupid/dumb questions) it's not about "YOU"! never was and never will be, hence the QTIP saying thrown around here.(This post is not directed towards an specific persons or job.JMO)

I'd have to say that we're terribly prepared for a train wreck in Belgium, geez, just think of the response time!
Seriously now, this is a great thread because so many areas have rail lines running through them. efdcapt115 hits on many of the key points so I'll just expand on a couple of them.
The management of the incident really needs to be organized, not just by assigning an IC and staging area manager but by fully staffing the planning and logistics sections because this incident is not going away anytime soon. Planning to organize the resource requirements and keep things on track, logistics because someone has to get all the stuff that efdcapt identified as being required.
I would argue strongly against the "y'all come" request for everyone to respond. Because they will and that will overwhelm the management and quickly become counterproductive. Every department should have a preplan for the credible worst case scenario in their community; it shouldn't be up to the overwhelmed IC to figure out what is needed on the fly. If you have a commuter rail line running through your response area there should be standing run cards that can quickly and efficinently be activated, just as is done for multiple fire alarms.
An assumption seems to be made that this is in an accessible area but if you look at much of the Metro North system, the line runs through some pretty remote (by metro NY area standards) areas. How will you get the lights and trucks and equipment to the scene if it isn't roadside?
Triage needs to happen as quickly as possible and ambulatory victims need to be escorted to an area of safety for further examination and treatment. Provisions for the evacuation of non-ambulatory victims also needs to be addressed.
Credentialing of responders and a bona fide accountability system need to be established and perimeters maintained to limit access to the scene - even by those in turnouts or with badges, stars, bars, or blue t-shirts.
Start working with Metro North or the responsible party to insure that all those stranded are being taken care of. Are there other trains stuck between stations? Are buses being mobilized to ferry them around the crash scene.
Food, water, rehab for the responders on scene (another reason to only call what's requested or you'll wind up with nothing but empty pizza boxes and orange soda left when the front line troops finally get a break).
Information to the public to allay anxiety and answer questions about loved ones. Hundreds of thousands of people ride the trains, that's a lot of phone calls to 911 trying to figure out who was on the train in question.
Alright, who's next?

Great Thread, lots of interesting issues.
>>Call for everybody........have Control notify every agency that they have a phone number for.<<
You will lose control very fast this way. You need to know who is coming and keep everyone else out. Establish strong perimeters and staging. Make sure you have enough law enforcement to do it and they know not to let FD or EMS in that has not been sent from staging.
>> Mass EMS mobilization, and hospitals, trauma-center notification. Control is going to be very busy.<<
60 can now do a mass notification with the trunk system and request all recieving facilities update there MCI bed status which we can recieve on rig PC's at scene.
>> Call for some air-med transport and establish a triage and landing zone in an open area somewhere nearby; plan for an EMS ferry system for multi-victims to the triage site.<<
Generally air medical sucks up more resources than it helps. Concentrate on the basics. Triage is generally not done in an area, but where you find them. Triage may also be an issue if the scene is not safe and EMS is not trained/equipped to operate in the hazard zone (can FD handle this?). Treatment areas need to be set up. Because of the cold, we need to get treatment areas out of the weather, options may include close buildings, large busses (bee line tandams are great for this) (backboarded patients can be placed over the seat backs), or heated tents (as seen in the pics) There are about a dozen of those heated tents in Westchester, most responders may not know that (each squad, each mass decon unit). For ferry system, consider 1) a rescue train (if distance is great, this may be best). 2) Metro north rail capable pick-up trucks. 3) rail rescue platforms (as seen in the pics), FDNY has them.
>> You're going to need rail-mounted cranes for stabilization.<< This might work well if you do not have overhead panagraphs, on the New Haven Line, chances are they will not get close.
>> Very important to establish NIMS ICS, especially get a staging officer out there to organize all the help coming in, I'd assign a firefighter or LT immediately, no sense in blocking up the area we might need road access to the site. How about a drop off point as close to the scene as possible, where rigs can roll up and stage equipment, then roll out to a parking area? <<
Once the rigs get into the scene, it will be hard to get them out to a parking area. Stagging is very very critical (look at what happened at Avianca crash). We do not do this well and it must be. Anyone who bypasses it needs to be sent home. If units (like engines)are going to be parked in staging, ambulances need to be in an area they can get out.
EMS ICS Managment is a big problem in Westchester, in many places it is very hard to get a crew out,much less crews and supervisors. For this incident we are going to need at least a 1/2 dozen EMS officers who know how to run MCI ops.
>> Depending on the time, you might need some heavy lighting systems, plus the generator-lights that we carried, portable 1000 watt lights.<<
Plan for it, it may not be dark now, but we will be here for many many hours.
There are many training and planning issues in this thread, most have never been addressed. Based on this many communities are going to perform poorly when this happens for real.
If you think it can't happen here, I took this pic in Mt. Vernon (and it was not the 1st time this happened at this location.

I can't speak for any other departments, so I'll stick to ours.
In the past, certain Chiefs were more concerned with our appearance at parades then covering the home turf. This practice is finally over, as our current Chief has already made it clear that covering the home turf is more important than anything. (What a concept!)
We will only be attending parades in our neighboring jurisdictions, and the plan (unless it changes) would be to only send one rig to each parade, with minimal personnel, and keep personnel in quarters / in town to cover calls.
In the past I have responded back to cover calls either in my Chief's car, POV or on an apparatus because of dumb decisions made by "top brass." It's embarassing and it's dangerous.
While it wasn't a parade, we had our Biennial Dinner Dance in January, and we had our own personnel in quarters as well as a Mutual Aid Engine from Montrose to cover calls. This practice is also used when we go out of town for drills. At minimum, we always keep at least one Engine and one Truck staffed in town, whether we're at a drill, parade, etc.
And to answer the question about cost - yes, we looked at that. Some people wanted to do away with all parades, however because we live in an imperfect society, if you don't go to some parades, those Chiefs take it personally then don't call you for anything in the future. Same stuff happens when you don't go to Friendship Nights, etc. For whatever reason, some Chiefs / Departments take it personally and will remove you or move you down on their Mutual Aid plan.
I know others know exactly what I'm talking about. It's all a game - a stupid game - but it does happen!

Wow, thank you. One of the most honest & straight-forward posts I've read in awhile. Bravo & thank you.
It is funny that this topic is pretty quiet. Like many others, perhaps the truth hurts?
Chief Flynn, as always you bring up a great point/question.
I've brought this up within my department many of times until my face turns blue.
I'm lucky to get 5 or 6 guys at our weekly trainings. But some people seem more concerned that we only got 8 or 10 out for a parade. What's wrong with this picture? It makes me sick, its as if many of us have forgotten why we're here.
Hey, I'm all for having fun, but not when its at the cost of the communities safety.
Hey Chief Flynn, ill answer you....YES, many depts go to Lake George EVERY year. Most bring at least 1 piece of apparatus & most of their active firefighters.
Who's left to respond to alarms? Your guess is as good as mine. Mutual-aid? They're at the parade to.

Parades outside of a departments response jurisdictions are one of the biggest liabilities a chief officer faces every year during parade season. Taking apparatus outside the jurisdiction especially to a municipality on the other side of the county (or to Lake George) is a recipe for disaster. Departments are just setting themselves up for the fall.
With limited manpower available in many departments it is inexcusable to allow apparatus to be taken to a parade by the few firefighters a municipality has available. Making arrangements for mutual aid coverage during a parade is a band aid approach to providing coverage. I can rememebr several years ago responding with my company on mutual aid to a municipality several towns away during the Lake George weekend into a working fire and was one of the first companies to arrive. The muncipality the fire occurred in had several pieces of apparatus and a large number of members up in Lake George
The public and taxpayers we serve and are supported by have an expectation that the fire apparatus and firefighters from their department will respond when the alarm is sounded in their community. The mnicipality or district purchased the fire apparatus (I know some companies own their own rigs) and have entrusted their care and use to the fire department the Fire Chief and firefighters that man them. The apparatus is for emergency response not for parades. It is sad but many departments get more people out for a parade then they do far an alarm.
I love the social and departmental rivalries that are such a part of the fire service and believe stronly that they have their place and time but we have an obligation to serve our communities first. Taking a parade in a neighboring muncipality is an acceptable social event your department can enjoy because you are able to immediately respond back into your jurisdiction with minimal or no impact on response times. Any chief officer that allows apparatus to leave the jurisdiction for a social event or parade hosted in a distant municipality should say a prayer that nothing happens in their jurisdiction during the absence of department apparatus. Additionally, what if something happens in route to or coming home from a parade. How do you explain to taxpayers that the brand new $700,000 dollar apparatus was damaged or destroyed going to a parade?
Chief officers, in this litigous society we live in please think of the liability you assume during a parade before you permit your apparatus to go out of jurisdiction. You can and will be held liable if and when something goes terribly wrong

I prefer to do it on here thanks. This way many more people besides me can see the answers, or lack thereof, and thus become informed regarding the extent of this very serious issue.
The silence thus far is deafening. There is much more specific information in the other thread regarding where and when the parades are than in this one. Why do you think that is?
BTW, you can call me John, Johnny, Chief, Mr. Flynn, Flynny, but please don't call me Flynn, it comes across as disrespectful and confrontational, even though I always remember to QTIP.