SageVigiles

I've made this same point several times discussing this in my area. The public is often conditioned to think that when there's a fire in their community, the house will be a loss and anything short of burning the entire block is a "good job" and will praise their FD for their efforts. The public also doesn't always recognize the football fornicating monkey show when they see it.
To some extent, this holds true for some of the departments involved. The amount of back slapping I see on social media these days on the heals of a fire in many of these communities is crazy. Everyone always did "a good job" and everyone going home safe is often used as the yard stick to measure the effort. They may have given 100% and done the best that they could, but that doesn't always mean that they actually did "a good job", did it in a reasonably safe fashion or that their efforts made the situation better.

All dependent on the service your town expects from its fire department. You get some of these tiny towns out west in the middle of nowhere, where you get 2 guys in traffic vests and hard hats because the community contracts its "fire service" out to a couple of yokels in a wagon from 1950 that barely runs.
Are most of our politicians/residents ignorant to the level of service their fire departments actually provide in comparison to what they're paying for it? Absolutely. But I'll bet the same happens for the police, DPW, and education services as well.
All that being said, you're absolutely right. Its not a career/volunteer issue if you have a 100% union career department that only has 5 guys split between an Engine, Truck and Ambulance? Guess what, you can't handle a fire without mutual aid. If you have a volunteer department with 3 stations, 4 engines, 2 rescues, 2 ladder trucks, and 9 Chief cars, but you can only get 6 guys for a fire at noon on a Tuesday, 5 of which are old enough to collect social security? Same deal.
I'm not sure if its reasonable for a town of 10,000 people to pay for enough staffing for a full NFPA-compliant response of 12-14 Firefighters for a residential structure fire. (Source) All the more reason to consolidate to one combination department. Less equipment, standardized training and SOPs, and you ensure that everyone in the area gets the same level of service for their dollar.

All dependent on the service your town expects from its fire department. You get some of these tiny towns out west in the middle of nowhere, where you get 2 guys in traffic vests and hard hats because the community contracts its "fire service" out to a couple of yokels in a wagon from 1950 that barely runs.
Are most of our politicians/residents ignorant to the level of service their fire departments actually provide in comparison to what they're paying for it? Absolutely. But I'll bet the same happens for the police, DPW, and education services as well.
All that being said, you're absolutely right. Its not a career/volunteer issue if you have a 100% union career department that only has 5 guys split between an Engine, Truck and Ambulance? Guess what, you can't handle a fire without mutual aid. If you have a volunteer department with 3 stations, 4 engines, 2 rescues, 2 ladder trucks, and 9 Chief cars, but you can only get 6 guys for a fire at noon on a Tuesday, 5 of which are old enough to collect social security? Same deal.
I'm not sure if its reasonable for a town of 10,000 people to pay for enough staffing for a full NFPA-compliant response of 12-14 Firefighters for a residential structure fire. (Source) All the more reason to consolidate to one combination department. Less equipment, standardized training and SOPs, and you ensure that everyone in the area gets the same level of service for their dollar.

All dependent on the service your town expects from its fire department. You get some of these tiny towns out west in the middle of nowhere, where you get 2 guys in traffic vests and hard hats because the community contracts its "fire service" out to a couple of yokels in a wagon from 1950 that barely runs.
Are most of our politicians/residents ignorant to the level of service their fire departments actually provide in comparison to what they're paying for it? Absolutely. But I'll bet the same happens for the police, DPW, and education services as well.
All that being said, you're absolutely right. Its not a career/volunteer issue if you have a 100% union career department that only has 5 guys split between an Engine, Truck and Ambulance? Guess what, you can't handle a fire without mutual aid. If you have a volunteer department with 3 stations, 4 engines, 2 rescues, 2 ladder trucks, and 9 Chief cars, but you can only get 6 guys for a fire at noon on a Tuesday, 5 of which are old enough to collect social security? Same deal.
I'm not sure if its reasonable for a town of 10,000 people to pay for enough staffing for a full NFPA-compliant response of 12-14 Firefighters for a residential structure fire. (Source) All the more reason to consolidate to one combination department. Less equipment, standardized training and SOPs, and you ensure that everyone in the area gets the same level of service for their dollar.

All dependent on the service your town expects from its fire department. You get some of these tiny towns out west in the middle of nowhere, where you get 2 guys in traffic vests and hard hats because the community contracts its "fire service" out to a couple of yokels in a wagon from 1950 that barely runs.
Are most of our politicians/residents ignorant to the level of service their fire departments actually provide in comparison to what they're paying for it? Absolutely. But I'll bet the same happens for the police, DPW, and education services as well.
All that being said, you're absolutely right. Its not a career/volunteer issue if you have a 100% union career department that only has 5 guys split between an Engine, Truck and Ambulance? Guess what, you can't handle a fire without mutual aid. If you have a volunteer department with 3 stations, 4 engines, 2 rescues, 2 ladder trucks, and 9 Chief cars, but you can only get 6 guys for a fire at noon on a Tuesday, 5 of which are old enough to collect social security? Same deal.
I'm not sure if its reasonable for a town of 10,000 people to pay for enough staffing for a full NFPA-compliant response of 12-14 Firefighters for a residential structure fire. (Source) All the more reason to consolidate to one combination department. Less equipment, standardized training and SOPs, and you ensure that everyone in the area gets the same level of service for their dollar.

Or since the State of CT has no law or regulation stating that interior FFs must be certified, departments may have to just forgo the state certification program and handle training on their own as their budgets allow. Communities lose, instructors lose and worst of all new firefighters lose...thanks Dannell you a$$hole.

Ladies and Gentlemen, in this particular instance, Connecticut wins.

Yeah I think we're confusing "alarm assignments" with "pre-plans." Those are not the same thing.

Officer Robert Wilson III, Badge # 9990, has succumbed to his injuries at Temple University Hospital. RIP.

Date: 3/5/15
Time: Approximately 1640 Hours
Location: IAO Gamestop - 2100 Lehigh St (Cross of 22nd St)
District: 22nd District
Units: Philadelphia Police Department, Philadelphia Fire Department

Description:
Unit reporting shots fired at 2 PPD Police Officers IAO Gamestop. 1 MOS shot in the head.
Officer transported to Temple University Hospital via PPD radio car, listed in extremely critical condition. 22nd St closed to allow for escort detail.
2 suspects in custody, 1 transported to Einstein Hospital with GSWs, unknown condition.
Prayers going out to the injured Officer.

Date: 3/5/15
Time: Approximately 1640 Hours
Location: IAO Gamestop - 2100 Lehigh St (Cross of 22nd St)
District: 22nd District
Units: Philadelphia Police Department, Philadelphia Fire Department

Description:
Unit reporting shots fired at 2 PPD Police Officers IAO Gamestop. 1 MOS shot in the head.
Officer transported to Temple University Hospital via PPD radio car, listed in extremely critical condition. 22nd St closed to allow for escort detail.
2 suspects in custody, 1 transported to Einstein Hospital with GSWs, unknown condition.
Prayers going out to the injured Officer.

Yeah I think we're confusing "alarm assignments" with "pre-plans." Those are not the same thing.

Yeah I think we're confusing "alarm assignments" with "pre-plans." Those are not the same thing.

Elections have consequences. The state employees and even the State Firefighters Association bought his line of BS hook, line, and sinker. He's said for years that fire training is a "local issue" and why anyone thought he was going to fulfill his promises is beyond me.

A single department would have 1 set of SOPs. The initial alarm would get a standard alarm assignment. Maybe for this area 3 engines 1 truck and 3 tankers on the reported fire. When all the responding chiefs are members of the same department they would get assigned necessary roles as they reported in (basement division, division 1, safety, water supply).
A key to success is getting enough help there when it can make a difference. Too often the volunteer fire service in this area waits for a confirmed fire to call for adequate resources or runs out of resources on the scene and then puts the FAST to work and then calls for more help. In my opinion if you have a real working fire you should have at least one company standing behind you ready for assignment in addition to the fast. My opinion is that ability to forecast the incident needs and call for additional alarms early on comes with experience that is lacking for most volunteer ICs since they get kicked out every 2 years so everyone can have a turn as chief. As a young company officer I often though wow do we really need the second alarm that the chief just gave? We did. One of my first days as a Captain a well respected deputy chief visited me to give a little advice when i worked as an acting battalion chief. His advice was if the though of giving a second alarm even entered my mind he wanted me to give it.
As for this incident the factors involved seemed like a loser from the get go (basement fire and Colliers conditions) pulling the plug was the right move here and probably prevented injuries or worse.

It seems like everyone is ignoring the side-by-side example of a consolidated volunteer department that sits right next door to the town in which this fire occurred. The town of Somers and the Town of Lewisboro have very similar constructs but have gone in opposite directions in terms of a consolidated department vs individual departments. Somers is about the same size as the Town of Lewisboro. They have 4 fire houses spread across town but operate as one department, with one chain of command, one set of SOPs, one fire district and consolidated resources. Conversely, in the Town of Lewisboro, they have the Golden's Bridge Fire Department, the South Salem Fire Department, and the Vista Fire Department (and the Lewisboro Ambulance Corps). Each of these departments are completely independent of one another and have their own chain of command, separate Fire District, separate equipment and their own set of SOGs.
In my opinion the consolidated volunteer department makes more sense for the following reasons:
The town of Lewisboro has 3 Mid-Heavy Rescue Units (Counting Rescue 24 may it rest in peace)...All of NYC has 5! The town of Lewisboro has 7+ Chief Vehicles. Each department in Lewisboro has at least 2 "Class A" engines so that they can stay in service when one goes out for maintenance. 90% of the time each engine rolls without a full crew anyway (thats if they can even get two engines out the door) Shortage of Officers. When I joined the fire service 10 years ago Vista Fire Department had 3 chiefs and a multiple captains, Lieutenants and Foremen, etc...now they are down to 3 officers (a chief, a captain, and a lieutenant). I believe that GBFD currently operates with two of their Lt. positions vacant. Moreover, many departments' by-laws are constantly being set aside to allow people who don't meet the professional qualifications to hold office. In many instances, members are being promoted to officer positions after being a member for only a year and having never been first-due to a car fire let alone a structure fire. What it all comes down to here is that you are ultimately going to get the same resources to a fire in both towns. In Somers you will probably get 20-30 members town-wide who will all respond to a daytime incident. In Lewisboro, you will get 10 members from the "host" department and 5-6 from each of the other 2 departments in town via mutual aid.
The differences however are major!
There will be a delay in resources because you have to wait for the host department to get on scene to dispatch mutual aid...they will have to operate with 4-6 people for at least the first 10-15 minutes until mutual aid can respond to their firehouses and then to the scene. There will be way too many Chiefs on scene because there will be 3 from each of the other departments in town...and not enough indians because anyone who is even remotely good will be a chief already (side note...I think Croton Falls had command on this last Goldens Bridge fire and at their firehouse fire last year). The manpower from the three independent departments will be less familiar with the equipment and personnel from the other departments than that of the one consolidated department. 3 sets of SOGs vs one consolidated set. I thought the side-by-side comparison may help clear up the confusion that a consolidated department would have to be paid. The Town of Somers could probably have ended up as the Granite Springs, Amawalk, Lincoldale, and Town of Somers fire departments had they wanted to go that route...for all I know they may have been at some point way back when.

That's the problem, you assume there would be a reduction in tankers. Frankly there would probably be an increase in tankers and a reduction in engines since the county already has more of them than all of NYC.
Properly analyzed and using real information not emotion or reliance on tradition, a regional, consolidated department would probably be far better equipped than we are today.

You know the consolidation of volunteer departments without the addition of any paid personnel could be a significant improvement over the completely arcane system we have now. Everyone immediately assumes that consolidation implies paid but it doesn't! How about merging 4-5 districts that serve the same town? Or the countless villages that rely heavily on each other and are smaller than a postage stamp.
Imagine a River Towns or Sound Shore or North County Fire District with several former departments under one hierarchy. Economies of scale in purchasing, reduction of apparatus numbers (and the ability to have "spares", something virtually non-existent outside the big cities), higher personnel counts, standard training, administration and operations, to name a few.
A member department with strengths in one area can help one weak in that area and so on. Officers can be vetted from a larger pool of candidates improving the quality, competition, and ultimately performance. Chiefs will oversee a bigger department giving them more experience. Budgets can be consolidated perhaps reducing the overall cost to the taxpayer.
There's a lot to be said for consolidating and it doesn't mean adding ONE paid guy.

I dont think comsolidation would matter in this case. The number of appratus needed, especially with regard to tankers would be the same. Manpower as well.
BIG difference would probably be the amount of apparatus just sitting in the firehouses not manned.
Instead of 11 deparments responding to the scene it would be 1. Same "stuff" though. In most consolidation plans I hear people talk about for the North part of the county the stations would remain, but the departments would be responsble for 1 or 2 rigs instead of a "fleet."
In this case each department for the most part respomded with 1 or 2 rigs. The same scenario if it were 1 consolidated Northern agency.

Actually that is the computer generated protocol response for entering a subtype to the call of TRAPPED. We were only to use that for pretty much confirmed entrapment NOT just they haven't gotten out yet, or door pops

I have to ask, why this discussion about a term? is it for dispatch, or what? a pin job is a pin job, some are harder, some take more time, some pop a door go home. I cant see having this discussion except after about 10 beers lol

If the barrel is less than 16" AND you have a buttstock, that is a short barrel rifle (SBR). That is legal (in some free states) so long as you pay the $200 tax and register it with the ATF under the guidelines of the National Firearms Act (NFA). This is the same act that regulates silencers/suppressors and fully automatic or select fire firearms.
Without the buttstock, it is a pistol if the barrel is less than 16". Which again, is only legal in free states, not the Empire of NY.
Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

Actually it was designed to work at a snails pace. The founding fathers wanted committee's and debate and time to consider the ramifications.

Date: 2-26-15
Time: Approximately 2200 Hours
Type: Multiple-Alarm Apartment Fire
Location: 408 Carpenter Ave
District: Newburgh
Units: City of Newburgh, Vails Gate, Middle Hope, West Point
Description: Fire in an apartment building, defensive operations due to partial collapse.