M' Ave

Hmmm... Let's see, we can have 59 different people doing 59 different things or we can have some standardization so things are more efficient and less confusing. Yes, individual fire districts bear responsibility for their operations but there can still be standardized dispatch and communications policies so everyone knows and understands what's going on without needing a secret decoder ring.
And, no disrespect to fire commissioners and/or chiefs, what happens when what they decide isn't best or current or consistent with everyone else? We just ignore the disparity and hope for the best? Come on, we have to get out of this mindset that everyone is their own little empire.
If an agency wants to use soup cans and string for communications fine, but if they're a signatory to the mutual aid plan or have any intentions of giving/receiving mutual aid to/from someone else they should become part of the system and that's where we're really lacking in this part of the country.

While distasteful as it is, you give persons like that all the power by even acknowledging what they do.
On a side note...respect is a funny thing...and I always conduct myself as a professional and demand respect when appropriate in the street. Anything else in a public forum is fair game and I do not expect respect for what I do as no one held a gun to my head to do it. I demand respect for who I am as a person and the professional I am. No one cares what we do..and I'm just fine with that. Pay no attention to that moron and you get all the power.

The senior man is a huge problem.....
....he is too few. At least in my neck of the woods. This lack of seniority has, in my limited view from inside the fire dept., been difficult. HOWEVER, the senior men who remain have been instrumental in leading us members of the Juniority in keeping up traditions and being willing to show us johnnies a thing or two at every opportunity. The burden of being in that positions is, no doubt, very great.
In my experience, there are two kinds of senior men. There is the true top senior man who has tons of time and you respect him because, well, he's seen it and done it and you haven't. You take care of him, make sure that his 12x watch is covered and that you ask him what he wants when you are heading to shop for the meal. This guy bears the burden of passing on the firehouse tradition and seeing to it that things continue to run in the well oiled manner that they have since anyone can remember. He is the officer's right hand man, his go to guy. He won't deal with day to day problems directly, in fact, you might find a senior man that doesn't have a lot to say to the proby....ever. He'll pass the word down the chain and feed you to the 10 year jackals! The senior man makes house policy and sets the tone. He is the most important person in the firehouse and his experience is invaluable.
The other kind of senior man is a little different. He isn't necessarily the guy with the most time, although he will certainly have more than most. He is a guy who steps up to lead in the firehouse everyday. He shares his knowledge and runs drills. I believe that the most effective "sub"-senior man is not the guy who breaks your chops all day from the kitchen table or the couch. He's the guy that you see DOING what you should be doing and without a word can make you run to help or steal that task from him. He won't say that you should be doing it, but you should realize that without anything being spoken. This is a guy who can make you want to step-up all of the time.
Thankfully, in all of my 10 seconds on the job, I've been able to work with the senior men who will take advantage of any opportunity to show you a trick or run through the paces of fire tactics at even the most mundane and routine run.
One thing aside from this, but important to note:
I think that the lack of enough senior firemen in a lot of instances has changed the role of the officer, at least temporarily. They do need to step outside of the typical officer's role and to share stories and knowledge to help bridge the seniority gap. Thankfully there have been enough senior officers around in my short career to do this. I think that the 8 officers assigned to the two companies in my house have a combined 140 (2 have less than 10 years so you can imagine what that means about the others) of experience. This is a huge bonus when, of the 4 guys on the backstep, 2 are probies and the other two of us have a combined time of about 6 years!

Date: 4/11/10
Time: 22:15 hours
Location: Grand St x Eldridge St
Frequency: FDNY Manhattan
Weather Conditions: humid, light drizzle
Description Of Incident: fire extended from the basement through the roof of a 6 story MD and into exposures 2, 2A, and 4. Companies initially unable to locate source of fire.
Reporters/Writer: ryang
Additional Info:
Chinatown, Manhattan, NY, 4/11/10
Address: 283 - 285 Grand St between Forsyth and Eldridge Sts
22:14 hours
Phone Box 259 - Report of smoke in the area
Engs. 9, 55, 15
T6, TL18
Battalion 4
10-75-259 - 22:16 hours
E28
T20 (FAST Truck)
Battalion 2
Squad 18
Rescue 1
Division 1
22:21 hours
Battalion 4: We're opening up at this time, we're trying to locate the source of the smoke. We're not sure if this is even the right building at this time. We have 1 line stretched, ready to go into operation.
22:25 hours
Division 1: We're going to change the address to 285 Grand St, we have a heavy smoke condition throughout the building, still trying to locate the source. 1 line stretched at this time, start out an extra engine and extra truck.
E7, L11 S/C
7-5-259 - 22:29 hours
DC1: We have a 20x80 mixed-occupancy type 6 story. We're still searching for the fire at this time. All-Hands at this time.
RAC1
Exposures are:
1 - street
2 - similar attached
3 - unknown
4 - similar
CIDs for 283 - 285 Grand St:
6 story 60x75 MD class 3. Rear fire escape. Solar panels on roof.
2-2-259 - 22:34 hours - Duration 20 minutes
Car 6 (AC James Esposito, Manhattan Borough Commander): Box 259, transmit a full 2nd alarm on this box, k. Box 259, right now we're using a 2nd alarm, heavy smoke in the cellar and 1st floor. Undetermined source of fire at this time, Trucks are still opening and searching for fire. This report by AC James Esposito, citywide tour commander.
Engs. 33, 5, 6, 10
E24 acting 9 w/ Satellite 1
TL9, L3 acting 6
Battalion 1 (Safety Officer)
Battalion 6 (Resource Unit Leader)
Safety, Rescue Battalions
Tactical Support 1
FieldCom, Command Tactical Unit
22:36 hours
Car 6: 2nd Alarm Box 259, 10-45 no code.
22:38 hours
Car 6: The satellite, let's get them on Grand St in front of the park on Eldridge, get the manifold set up right in front of the fire building. I want the two trucks into the command post ASAP, with their tools, k, they're going to work. Special call 1 additional truck on the 2nd
TL1 S/C
22:40 hours
The staging area is Grand St and Chrystie St
22:41 hours
Receiving apartment 4H at 45 Allen St reporting smoke.
22:42 hours
Car 6: Special call an additional truck above TL1.
L8 S/C
22:43 hours - Duration 29 minutes
Car 6: 2nd Alarm Box 259, another, 2nd, 10-45 no code
3-3-259 - 22:47 hours
Car 6: 259 box, transmit a full 3rd alarm. I want the entire third alarm to stage at the staging area
Engs. 4, 3, 16, 23 acting 55
L10, T5
Battalion 7
Battalion 35 (Staging Manager)
Battalion 43 (Air-Recon Chief)
Mask Service Unit

22:54 hours
Car 6: Have the 1st due trucks on the 3rd alarm respond in to the Command Post.
22:55 hours
Car 6: Call 2 trucks and have them go to staging.
TL21 acting 1, TL15 S/C
22:59 hours
Car 6: Give me 2 engines and 2 trucks off of staging, have them report in to the Command Post.
Engs. 4, 3, L10, T5 re-directed
23:00 hours
Car 6: Special call two Battalion Chiefs on this assignment, I want them at the command post.
Battalions 8, 57 S/C
23:00 hours
Battalion 31 replacing Battalion 57
4-4-259 - 23:01 hours
Car 6: Transmit a 4th Alarm! Have the 4th alarm report to staging, I have Battalion 35 at staging.
Engs. 8, 1, 54, 14
E262 w/ IMT Unit
TL7, TL12
Battalion 57 (Planning Sections Chief)
Car 4 (Chief of Operations Robert Sweeney)
Car 36B (Department Chaplain)
23:02 hours
Car 12A (Executive Assistant, Safety and Inspectional Services) is responding
Car 17 is 10-84
23:05 hours
FieldCom: 4th alarm Box 259, AC Esposito, Car 6, would like to request ConEd Gas and ConEd Electric to the scene, k.
23:08 hours
Fallback Step III has been implemented in the borough of Manhattan.
23:10 hours
Receiving report of person trapped in apartment 4C on the 6th floor
23:10 hours - Duration 57 minutes
FC: Progress report #6 on the 4th alarm Box 259, the correct address is 283 Grand St. Car 6, AC Esposito reports we have fire in the basement and 1st floor of the fire building, which is 283 Grand St, with possible extension into the 2nd floor. We have extension into exposure 2, which is 285 Grand St, into the 1st floor. They have 5 hands lines stretched and in operation, they are evacuating civilians from the upper floors, and they are getting water on the fire, primary searches are in progress, and the fire remains Doubtful Will Hold.
23:12 hours
Receiving apartment 14 at 285 Grand St reporting a person choking from smoke.
23:13 hours
FC: By orders of Car 6, AC Esposito, special call 2 Battalion Chiefs above the 4th Alarm.
Battalions 9, 32 acting 1 S/C
23:13 hours
Car 12 (DAC Stephen Raynis, Chief of Safety and Inspectional Services) is responding
23:16 hours
FC: Can you put in another call to ConEd, we need a supervisor forthwith and get an ETA
5-5-259 - 23:17 hours
FC: Per Car 6, AC Esposito, transmit a 5th Alarm!
Engs. 26, 226, 34 acting 24, 230 acting 10
6-6-259 - 23:23 hours
Engs. 205, 224, 210, 211
L154 acting 1, L24
23:26 hours - Duration 1 hour 12 minutes
FC: Progress report #7 for the 6th Alarm Box 259, at this time AC Esposito reports, 8 handlines stretched and in operation, fire on the 1st and 2nd floors of exposure 2, fire extended to the 3rd floor of the original fire building. Transmit 2 additional 10-45s, for a total of 4, still evacuating numerous civilians from the upper floors, and the fire remains Doubtful.
23:32 hours
Car 36A (Department Chaplain) is responding
23:34 hours
FC: Special call a 95 foot Tower Ladder, we need them to respond to Eldridge St adjacent to exposure 2.
TL14 acting 21 S/C
23:42 hours
FC: At this time the Chief of Operations, Chief Sweeney, is on scene. We have evacuated all members from the fire building and from exposure 2, and we are in the process of conducting a rollcall.
23:44 hours
Battalion 43 - Air Recon: Can you advise the FieldCom, from our vantage point we have heavy fire through the roof.
FC: Have the Air Recon Battalion switch to channel 5 while they conduct rollcall.
23:45 hours
Car 3 (Chief of Department Edward Kilduff) is 10-84
Car 1 (Fire Commissioner Salvatore Cassano) is responding
23:54 hours
Car 1E (Commissioner's Liaison) is responding
Car 14 (Chief Fire Marshal) is responding
7-7-259 - 23:55 hours
FC: At this time can you special call an additional FAST Truck, have them report to Battalion 9 on exposure 3. By orders of the Chief of Department, Chief Kilduff, transmit a 7th Alarm.
T118 (FAST Truck) S/C
23:56 hours
FC: By orders of Car 3, Chief Kilduff, we will only special call 2 engines.
Engs. 21 acting 15, 219 S/C*
((7th Alarm rescinded)
00:00 hours - 1 hour 46 minutes
FC: Progress report for the 6th Alarm Box 259, at this time Car 3, Chief of Department Kilduff reports they have heavy fire on all floors of the original fire building, and they have fire on all floors of exposure 2. They have 2 tower ladders set up and in operation: 1 on the fire building, and 1 on exposure 2. They have extension into exposure 2A, and have 3 handlines stretched into exposure 2A, and the fire remains Doubtful.
7-7-259 - 00:05 hours
FC: By orders of the Chief of Department, Chief Kilduff, transmit an additional alarm for the 7th alarm.
Engs 216, 258 acting 33, 271 acting 6, 202
L30 acting 3, TL146 acting 18
00:07 hours
FC: Can you special call an additional Deputy Chief.
Division 11 S/C
00:11 hours
RAC1: You're going to have to dispatch another RAC to the 7th Alarm here.
RAC2 S/C
00:27 hours
FC requests a mixer-off message.
00:33 hours
FC: Can you special call 1 additional battalion chief, have them report to the Command Post.
Battalion 44 S/C
00:46 hours
Receiving report of embers falling on Hester St between Eldridge and Forsyth Sts
00:46 hours - Duration 2 hours 32 minutes
FC: At this time Chief of Department Kilduff reports they have fire in exposure 2A on the 4th, 5th, 6th floors and in the cockloft, they have a tower ladder operation on the fire building, another tower ladder operating on exposures 2 and 2A. They had some extension into exposure 4 but that has been knocked down, and the fire remains Doubtful, k.
00:54 hours
FC: On the original 4 10-45 no codes, 2 of them are going to be code 2s (Red Tag, Immediate) and 2 will be code 4s (Green Tag, Minor).
01:14 hours
FC requests a mixer-off message.
01:25 hours
BC43 (Air Recon): Advise FieldCom we have re-fueled and are ready to take off again, ascertain if they have any special instructions and what handy-talky channel they want us to come in on.
01:26 hours
FC: You can notify the Air Recon as per the Chief they can go back in service.
01:35 hours - Duration 3 hours 22 minutes
FC: Progress report #10 for the 7th Alarm Box 259, the Chief of Department, Chief Kilduff, reports: at this time they have shut down all tower ladders, they have no visible fire in the original fire building, exposure 2, or exposure 2A. They are evaluating the structural stability of the original fire building and exposure 2, they will be going back to a handline operation in exposure 2A, and places the fire Probably Will Hold, k.
01:49 hours
FC: We have a correction on the 10-45s: originally we had a total of 4 1045s, it is now only 3. 2 will be code 2s, and 1 has been upgraded to a code 3 (Yellow Tag, Delayed).
01:51 hours
Rescue Battalion is 10-8 back to Citywide.
01:54 hours
Tactical Support 1 is 10-8 back to Citywide.
02:00 hours
Car 1 is 10-8.
02:12 hours - Duration 3 hours 58 minutes
FC: Progress report #11 on the 7th Alarm Box 259, the Chief of Department, Chief Kilduff, reports: at this time they have 1 tower ladder operating into exposure 2, they have 2 handlines stretched and in operation in exposure 2A knocking down pockets of fire in the shaft and cockloft, he's placing the fire Under Control, k.
Relocations:
Engines: 316/1, 292/3, 280/4, 271/6, 221/7, 24/9, 22/9, 306/22, 230/10, 35/10, 291/14, 21/15, 255/15, 319/21, 34/24, 325/24, 73/26, 237/28, 258/33, 259/33, 23/55, 74/55
Ladders: 21/1, 154/1, 115/1, 3/6, 30/3, 128/6, 163/7, 110/8, 16/11, 22/12, 111/15, 146/18, 119/18, 101/20, 14/21, 23/21, 54/14
Battalions: 32/1, 11/2, 10/4, 45/6, 52/8

Chief Flynn and M'Ave hit the nail on the head (IMO) with the "Senior Man". And Yes Chief, there are problems with us junior guys too. But anyone can put on the "ACT" in probie school for X weeks and appear as a "Hardcharger"as I saw this first hand how they were and are now. Two different people. Possibly the guys in company (Senior man- junior junior guy) just do not know what their leadership role is b/c they were not guided as such? Being prior service has helped me to understand how these roles are filled at different levels, so do we need to go even further and say its the quality of guy/gal we hire? Should the academy be harder? longer? incorporate more chain of command understanding? Since your post took on another level of leadership, I wanted to hit on this seemingly fading role of the "Senior Man".
X129K, I think the lack of respect runs the gauntlet from the guy with 1min more than you to some officers(BUT NOT EVERYONE). I think its back to the whole being a prick thing that guys want others to like them and be friends,meanwhile if they only knew the respect they would get both below and above them just by doing what is expected (leadership wise). Like I stated before, you may not respect the person but you should be respectful of his rank/role, Friends or not!

This is a good question and I agree that many may choose not to answer because they don't want to offend anyone and / or look in the mirror. I'll jump in though because I think this is an important topic.
In the career fire service a good senior man should have several qualities...calm, confident, lead by example, minimal or no whining, an advocate for the men to the officers and an advocate for the officers to the men. A good senior man praises in public and criticizes in private. A good senior man does not take things personally nor does he make personal attacks.
A good senior man does not need to be the most intelligent, skilled, or physically fit firefighter...he realizes that his years of experience entitle him to respect automatically and this respect will be lost only if he is dishonest, uncaring, a bully,or a loudmouth.
A good senior man rarely, if ever, asks for special privilege due to his senior status. The less he asks, the more it will be given.
Good senior men have many different styles and personalities but I have found the most effective, comforting, senior men to be the type who are more likely to be found quietly observing from a corner of the room than loudly carrying on in the middle of the crowd.
Now, maybe we should talk about what makes a good junior man, because we can have the best Officers and senior men in the world, but if the guy or guys at the bottom and in the middle don't do their job and just want to blame their own bad attitudes and work ethic on those above them, all the best intentions of the bosses and senior men are useless.....

The senior man is a huge problem.....
....he is too few. At least in my neck of the woods. This lack of seniority has, in my limited view from inside the fire dept., been difficult. HOWEVER, the senior men who remain have been instrumental in leading us members of the Juniority in keeping up traditions and being willing to show us johnnies a thing or two at every opportunity. The burden of being in that positions is, no doubt, very great.
In my experience, there are two kinds of senior men. There is the true top senior man who has tons of time and you respect him because, well, he's seen it and done it and you haven't. You take care of him, make sure that his 12x watch is covered and that you ask him what he wants when you are heading to shop for the meal. This guy bears the burden of passing on the firehouse tradition and seeing to it that things continue to run in the well oiled manner that they have since anyone can remember. He is the officer's right hand man, his go to guy. He won't deal with day to day problems directly, in fact, you might find a senior man that doesn't have a lot to say to the proby....ever. He'll pass the word down the chain and feed you to the 10 year jackals! The senior man makes house policy and sets the tone. He is the most important person in the firehouse and his experience is invaluable.
The other kind of senior man is a little different. He isn't necessarily the guy with the most time, although he will certainly have more than most. He is a guy who steps up to lead in the firehouse everyday. He shares his knowledge and runs drills. I believe that the most effective "sub"-senior man is not the guy who breaks your chops all day from the kitchen table or the couch. He's the guy that you see DOING what you should be doing and without a word can make you run to help or steal that task from him. He won't say that you should be doing it, but you should realize that without anything being spoken. This is a guy who can make you want to step-up all of the time.
Thankfully, in all of my 10 seconds on the job, I've been able to work with the senior men who will take advantage of any opportunity to show you a trick or run through the paces of fire tactics at even the most mundane and routine run.
One thing aside from this, but important to note:
I think that the lack of enough senior firemen in a lot of instances has changed the role of the officer, at least temporarily. They do need to step outside of the typical officer's role and to share stories and knowledge to help bridge the seniority gap. Thankfully there have been enough senior officers around in my short career to do this. I think that the 8 officers assigned to the two companies in my house have a combined 140 (2 have less than 10 years so you can imagine what that means about the others) of experience. This is a huge bonus when, of the 4 guys on the backstep, 2 are probies and the other two of us have a combined time of about 6 years!

The senior man is a huge problem.....
....he is too few. At least in my neck of the woods. This lack of seniority has, in my limited view from inside the fire dept., been difficult. HOWEVER, the senior men who remain have been instrumental in leading us members of the Juniority in keeping up traditions and being willing to show us johnnies a thing or two at every opportunity. The burden of being in that positions is, no doubt, very great.
In my experience, there are two kinds of senior men. There is the true top senior man who has tons of time and you respect him because, well, he's seen it and done it and you haven't. You take care of him, make sure that his 12x watch is covered and that you ask him what he wants when you are heading to shop for the meal. This guy bears the burden of passing on the firehouse tradition and seeing to it that things continue to run in the well oiled manner that they have since anyone can remember. He is the officer's right hand man, his go to guy. He won't deal with day to day problems directly, in fact, you might find a senior man that doesn't have a lot to say to the proby....ever. He'll pass the word down the chain and feed you to the 10 year jackals! The senior man makes house policy and sets the tone. He is the most important person in the firehouse and his experience is invaluable.
The other kind of senior man is a little different. He isn't necessarily the guy with the most time, although he will certainly have more than most. He is a guy who steps up to lead in the firehouse everyday. He shares his knowledge and runs drills. I believe that the most effective "sub"-senior man is not the guy who breaks your chops all day from the kitchen table or the couch. He's the guy that you see DOING what you should be doing and without a word can make you run to help or steal that task from him. He won't say that you should be doing it, but you should realize that without anything being spoken. This is a guy who can make you want to step-up all of the time.
Thankfully, in all of my 10 seconds on the job, I've been able to work with the senior men who will take advantage of any opportunity to show you a trick or run through the paces of fire tactics at even the most mundane and routine run.
One thing aside from this, but important to note:
I think that the lack of enough senior firemen in a lot of instances has changed the role of the officer, at least temporarily. They do need to step outside of the typical officer's role and to share stories and knowledge to help bridge the seniority gap. Thankfully there have been enough senior officers around in my short career to do this. I think that the 8 officers assigned to the two companies in my house have a combined 140 (2 have less than 10 years so you can imagine what that means about the others) of experience. This is a huge bonus when, of the 4 guys on the backstep, 2 are probies and the other two of us have a combined time of about 6 years!

I wanted to spin off of the leadership thread and throw some questions out here about the "Senior Man". I want to get some different or same opinions about the role of the"Senior Man" in different depts.
1. What qualities makes a good "Senior Man"?(to you)
2. WHY do you consider him the "Senior Man"?
3. Does the "Senior Man" HAVE to be the guy with the most time OTJ?(In your opinion)
4. If you are the "Senior Man", What do you do with the "Pumpkin Patch Kids" or other junior men to make them better FF's?
5. If you are not the "Senior Man", What would you do different from the current "Senior Man" if you were?
Obviously there are no right or wrong answers to these and I hope that guys will answer honestly without feeling like someone is going to get pissed at them for their answers/opinions. Hell, maybe someone who reads this thread might change a few things to become a better "Senior Man". THIS IS NOT INTENDED TO THROW ANYONE UNDER THE BUS, BUT IF YOU DO GET MAD AT A POST AND TAKE IT PERSONAL, TAKE A STEP BACK AND SEE WHAT MADE YOU MAD BECAUSE IT JUST MIGHT POSSIBLY BE YOU.

You know what would be nice? If New York State did an audit of itself. Here we are in "financial straights" and I can't recall any pay cuts taken by elected officials or appointees, nor can I think of any other cutbacks in state Government. After they're finished with that, they can take a look at NYC, who's work force has grown by 50,000 +/- under Bloomberg. None of those jobs were in uniform services, but many jobs in those services were cut in those years.

You know what would be nice? If New York State did an audit of itself. Here we are in "financial straights" and I can't recall any pay cuts taken by elected officials or appointees, nor can I think of any other cutbacks in state Government. After they're finished with that, they can take a look at NYC, who's work force has grown by 50,000 +/- under Bloomberg. None of those jobs were in uniform services, but many jobs in those services were cut in those years.

Anyone can design a single rear axle if keep the weight carried relativly low.
Maybe if all you consider to be "rescue equipment" is extrication equipment. Once we add all our equipment to our 91' Single rear axle Pierce it was overloaded and that was with 46% of the box empty and the 4 seats in the back empty. Everytime we wanted to add equipment, we had to remove something else.
While that 4th compartment may get you "more space" its only going to be able to carry air (and not in tanks). Most rescues have tons of wasted space and extra compartments do not make a difference but capacity to carry the load (and be able to safely stop it) is more critical. Also most single axle units are 21' box, not 24' so you actually do not gain the extra space over the tandumes.
Arent most of those ladders tandums?

This is very true and I agree that there is a different dynamic and set of challenges to officers in smaller dept's where the separation of officers, firefighters and politicians is much smaller. Thank you for the alternate viewpoint. This situation does and continues to impact members in larger jobs as well. You could be a boss in a company with someone who was in your proby class and still a fireman, ect. ect.
I think a constant here is that being promoted is rewarding yet very challenging. One of those challenges is the need to sacrifice your standing as on of the men, not always, but sometimes. The best bosses (and I'm fortunate to work for terrific bosses) have the ability to be all business and lay-down the law when it is necessary and still be on deck cheering you on at the plate for softball. Some of the burden here is shared by the firemen as well. It is up to us to know how and where to draw the line. Your best friend could be your boss that day. You owe it to him to keep that separate and address him by his title at work, at least in front of the others. It's give and take. The successful officers I've seen know how to take charge and respectful firemen who are broken in the right way will give you the respect of the rank. If an officer were to seek disciplinary action against a subordinate, I would think it less likely that he is some hard-nosed guy and more likely that a subordinate backed them into a corner and left them no choice. Thankfully, I've never seen this happen.
Any officer here care to share a bit about the transition? What was the first tour like? What did you do internally to make the change and what external factors helped/hindered the transition?

This was a great topic to start. To try and analyze the supervisor/firefighter relationship is very difficult, especially to someone who does not reside within the ranks of our respective profession. In other professions you do not eat three meals a day with your boss. You don't reside in the same building a few nights a week. Above all, you do not enter into hazardous environments with your boss. I believe that the underlying concept of the brotherhood and the responsibility we have for one another transcends rank, to some degree.
I'm simply a fireman, no bars for this guy. Not yet at least and I like to think that I pay attention to the dynamic and here is are my observations. In New York City, following promotion, you are indeed removed from your immediate work environment to attend FLiPs. Once you complete that schooling, you are assigned to a division and often a Boro that is different from where you served as a fireman. Suddenly everyone calls you "Lou" and you are responsible for EVERYTHING that happens with that company during the tour. I have to imagine that this does help the transition since, in all likelihood, no one at that company knows you as anything other than a boss. However, you knew yourself as fireman, so I would imagine that it is a difficult internal transitions to make. Would I be wrong to assume that the first promotion is the most difficult to adjust too?
In my limited experience, the best bosses are rarely feared, sometimes loved and always respected. In our system, we live in the same house as officers, right up to the rank of Deputy Chief. There should be a mutual respect between the rank and file and the boss. He is the superior officer. He has gained rank and with that comes responsibility and that should not be challenged by the lesser rank. From his perspective, you cook his meals, make up the rack for him and clean his office. To some degree, as you move past the Co. Commander (Capt.) and on to chief, he spends a lot less time with the men, but the best officers know how to balance their time. They know just how much time to spend in the kitchen and the sitting rooms with the men. They know whey to just head up to the office and stay there. In the best scenario, the men know when to let the officer lead and when to settle issues in such away as not to trouble the officer. I have always been told that in a perfect world, the men run the house and the officer runs the company.

This is very true and I agree that there is a different dynamic and set of challenges to officers in smaller dept's where the separation of officers, firefighters and politicians is much smaller. Thank you for the alternate viewpoint. This situation does and continues to impact members in larger jobs as well. You could be a boss in a company with someone who was in your proby class and still a fireman, ect. ect.
I think a constant here is that being promoted is rewarding yet very challenging. One of those challenges is the need to sacrifice your standing as on of the men, not always, but sometimes. The best bosses (and I'm fortunate to work for terrific bosses) have the ability to be all business and lay-down the law when it is necessary and still be on deck cheering you on at the plate for softball. Some of the burden here is shared by the firemen as well. It is up to us to know how and where to draw the line. Your best friend could be your boss that day. You owe it to him to keep that separate and address him by his title at work, at least in front of the others. It's give and take. The successful officers I've seen know how to take charge and respectful firemen who are broken in the right way will give you the respect of the rank. If an officer were to seek disciplinary action against a subordinate, I would think it less likely that he is some hard-nosed guy and more likely that a subordinate backed them into a corner and left them no choice. Thankfully, I've never seen this happen.
Any officer here care to share a bit about the transition? What was the first tour like? What did you do internally to make the change and what external factors helped/hindered the transition?

Much can be learned about the transition in rank/supervisory duties at any level of size by taking a look at the military. As most already pointed out it can be very challenging when you transition in smaller departments when most of the persons you are going to now be supervising are your friends and even saw you do some of the smaller things that might not have fit so snug within the rules, regs or appropriate means of the fire service.
As with the military the rank structure does carry some weight and also changes the way in which persons speak to you by title. The only major difference is enlisted personal (at least in the Marine Corps) are also prohibited from calling each other by first name, last name only was appropriate. Once you reached NCO status, everyone called you by your title and last name, even if you were the same rank. Hence, Corporal Smith. Not just "Smith" by another corporal. This instills that the title is something of significance and demands the respect of such. I also feel that this holds true within the fire service where a Lt. should reference another Lt. as Lieutenant. Not Lieu..not "L.T.". Same things holds true with Captain. Obviously anyone of higher rank should always be called by title and last name. ALWAYS. To take it another step, I rarely if ever refer to a fire instructor who I am working with by their first name with students, I do not allow students to call instructors by their first name and I reference them either by Instructor XX or by the title they earned if they are on the job, Captain XX. I find it sets the example for students, particularly probies in the academy and demands respect of the service, the title and the discipline the fire service should have. Bottom line is this also, while you may be friends with some of them, those that are truly your friends and respect our job will give you the respect you deserve and if not they will quickly not be a friend and you will do your job as needed.
On a personal level when promoted in the service and assigned a team, squad or whatever the assignment, I generally had a meeting of just my personnel under my supervision. This often included guys who I was friends with and was going to stay friends with as I had bonds with outside of the tight comaraderie that occurs in operational military units. In the meeting, I would make it semi formal as I would take a position of authority either by having them sit, and me standing or having them directly in front of me as I would sit alone in front of them. I would lay out what my expectations are and in smaller unit levels would remind them that I am also not just there to supervise them, to get a job done, but also there for them when they have problems or concerns and that I would carry them to the appropriate level to get assistance or an answer and that I will be honest with them, but I demand honesty with them. Then once that was done, for the first couple of weeks, if any hiccups would occur I would do personal verbal counseling sessions to attempt to correct any issues that I had or were violations of rules and regs. From that moment on any additional would get the appropriate disciplinarian action. If there is one thing that I have learned that gains huge respect from your men is this:
1. They're not stupid. They knew who and what you were in the ranks. Come on too strong or holier then thou, they will become defiant. Also under this..there is a difference between leadership and management. Balance the 2 well they will go to war with you (in some cases for me that was literally).
2. Stand up for them and they will respond very well. Often another person of equal rank but of a different group or of a higher rank will want to take something on or go after a member of or your group directly. I would always, pull that person to the side and discuss it, even with higher rank, stay respectful of their title, but if they get it, they will realize that it costs you face and sometimes they need to be reminded that chain of command goes both ways and with same rank you are responsible for your people. I would then go back to them, reinforce that if they did something wrong, they were wrong, but that I spoke to the individual and that if that were to occur again that they were to report it to me, and not take it up with the other person. This builds face for you, shows you are involved in your group cohesiveness and shows other rank that you will not be walked on. The problem is you have to make sure you're people are up to snuff and doing their jobs or this is all for not. The only thing I ever found acceptable was to correct safety issues immediately but then those persons should come to me not only out of respect but to ensure I can supervise correctly and make sure it doesn't occur again. I also forgot that if your member was disrespectful..to ensure you deal with that immediately and sternly.
3. Let them do their jobs..and let them invest in what you need to get done. If your not afraid of how you will look by delegating they will like it and helps them build into getting promoted and the skills necessary to do so the right way. Maximize your people with their potential and pair those up with them who are not so they learn a new skill/process. It will come around full fold if that 1 person who is good at something isn't there when you need them.
4. Know how to identify when its time to be your rank/last name and when its time to be joe blow. I always looked at it this way. In uniform or official FD function in plain clothes...title. Non FD function, first name. Again friends who have respect will get this also.
Just a few and I could go on...but some probably stopped reading already.

This was a great topic to start. To try and analyze the supervisor/firefighter relationship is very difficult, especially to someone who does not reside within the ranks of our respective profession. In other professions you do not eat three meals a day with your boss. You don't reside in the same building a few nights a week. Above all, you do not enter into hazardous environments with your boss. I believe that the underlying concept of the brotherhood and the responsibility we have for one another transcends rank, to some degree.
I'm simply a fireman, no bars for this guy. Not yet at least and I like to think that I pay attention to the dynamic and here is are my observations. In New York City, following promotion, you are indeed removed from your immediate work environment to attend FLiPs. Once you complete that schooling, you are assigned to a division and often a Boro that is different from where you served as a fireman. Suddenly everyone calls you "Lou" and you are responsible for EVERYTHING that happens with that company during the tour. I have to imagine that this does help the transition since, in all likelihood, no one at that company knows you as anything other than a boss. However, you knew yourself as fireman, so I would imagine that it is a difficult internal transitions to make. Would I be wrong to assume that the first promotion is the most difficult to adjust too?
In my limited experience, the best bosses are rarely feared, sometimes loved and always respected. In our system, we live in the same house as officers, right up to the rank of Deputy Chief. There should be a mutual respect between the rank and file and the boss. He is the superior officer. He has gained rank and with that comes responsibility and that should not be challenged by the lesser rank. From his perspective, you cook his meals, make up the rack for him and clean his office. To some degree, as you move past the Co. Commander (Capt.) and on to chief, he spends a lot less time with the men, but the best officers know how to balance their time. They know just how much time to spend in the kitchen and the sitting rooms with the men. They know whey to just head up to the office and stay there. In the best scenario, the men know when to let the officer lead and when to settle issues in such away as not to trouble the officer. I have always been told that in a perfect world, the men run the house and the officer runs the company.

This is an excellent topic. M'AVE, thanks for the perspective on NYC's promotions. A division/borough change is a big step for any new officer, but also, a fresh start and a fair chance for a new officer to be able to do their job effectively, and be a real leader, not just a manager or first line supervisor. That, of course, is FDNY, and not the majority of small to mid-size fire departments throughout the state that employ career firefighters and officers.
In smaller career or combination departments, just like the book says, guys often go 'From buddy to boss'. You literally leave one shift in a blue shirt, and show up the next shift in a white one, with a whole new job description. (Remember, career officers don't have to attend FLST before taking command, just within 1 year of promotion.) Career advancement is a wonderful thing, and so are growing fire departments. A lot of places are experiencing growing pains, so to speak. Demographic changes in our communities, progressing the mission of the FD, are both reasons our jobs are changing. With changing jobs, comes changing responsibility.
In combination departments, all too often first line supervisors are much more than a first line company officer. They are training officers, shift commanders, senior firefighters, safety officers, etc. All while being the closest thing to a company officer the firefighters have. Typically, they have come directly from the same station, and the same back room, and were the same firefighters the guys have worked with all along. The pressure put on them by virtue of their position is often the biggest change and challenge of their careers. This is a tough dynamic to break, on both sides of the issue.
Finally, the pressure from the higher-ups. Officers in smaller places are much closer in proximity to the politicos that make the fire service possible, typically a city or village council, or board of fire commissioners. These people manage the fire department on a business level, and are not leaders. Essentially, they are not out of reach. They can be micro-managed, and held accountable, regardless of whether or not its right. As I learned my first day on the job, S#*T flows downhill.....
In my limited experience, and time on a smaller job, I guess the best way to empower officers to lead, and firefighters to do their jobs, is to let them be a fire department. Give them the proper structure to be a fire department, give the officers a chance to be leaders, and the firefighters a chance to be just that. Everything else, all things normal, should fall into place.

This was a great topic to start. To try and analyze the supervisor/firefighter relationship is very difficult, especially to someone who does not reside within the ranks of our respective profession. In other professions you do not eat three meals a day with your boss. You don't reside in the same building a few nights a week. Above all, you do not enter into hazardous environments with your boss. I believe that the underlying concept of the brotherhood and the responsibility we have for one another transcends rank, to some degree.
I'm simply a fireman, no bars for this guy. Not yet at least and I like to think that I pay attention to the dynamic and here is are my observations. In New York City, following promotion, you are indeed removed from your immediate work environment to attend FLiPs. Once you complete that schooling, you are assigned to a division and often a Boro that is different from where you served as a fireman. Suddenly everyone calls you "Lou" and you are responsible for EVERYTHING that happens with that company during the tour. I have to imagine that this does help the transition since, in all likelihood, no one at that company knows you as anything other than a boss. However, you knew yourself as fireman, so I would imagine that it is a difficult internal transitions to make. Would I be wrong to assume that the first promotion is the most difficult to adjust too?
In my limited experience, the best bosses are rarely feared, sometimes loved and always respected. In our system, we live in the same house as officers, right up to the rank of Deputy Chief. There should be a mutual respect between the rank and file and the boss. He is the superior officer. He has gained rank and with that comes responsibility and that should not be challenged by the lesser rank. From his perspective, you cook his meals, make up the rack for him and clean his office. To some degree, as you move past the Co. Commander (Capt.) and on to chief, he spends a lot less time with the men, but the best officers know how to balance their time. They know just how much time to spend in the kitchen and the sitting rooms with the men. They know whey to just head up to the office and stay there. In the best scenario, the men know when to let the officer lead and when to settle issues in such away as not to trouble the officer. I have always been told that in a perfect world, the men run the house and the officer runs the company.

This was a great topic to start. To try and analyze the supervisor/firefighter relationship is very difficult, especially to someone who does not reside within the ranks of our respective profession. In other professions you do not eat three meals a day with your boss. You don't reside in the same building a few nights a week. Above all, you do not enter into hazardous environments with your boss. I believe that the underlying concept of the brotherhood and the responsibility we have for one another transcends rank, to some degree.
I'm simply a fireman, no bars for this guy. Not yet at least and I like to think that I pay attention to the dynamic and here is are my observations. In New York City, following promotion, you are indeed removed from your immediate work environment to attend FLiPs. Once you complete that schooling, you are assigned to a division and often a Boro that is different from where you served as a fireman. Suddenly everyone calls you "Lou" and you are responsible for EVERYTHING that happens with that company during the tour. I have to imagine that this does help the transition since, in all likelihood, no one at that company knows you as anything other than a boss. However, you knew yourself as fireman, so I would imagine that it is a difficult internal transitions to make. Would I be wrong to assume that the first promotion is the most difficult to adjust too?
In my limited experience, the best bosses are rarely feared, sometimes loved and always respected. In our system, we live in the same house as officers, right up to the rank of Deputy Chief. There should be a mutual respect between the rank and file and the boss. He is the superior officer. He has gained rank and with that comes responsibility and that should not be challenged by the lesser rank. From his perspective, you cook his meals, make up the rack for him and clean his office. To some degree, as you move past the Co. Commander (Capt.) and on to chief, he spends a lot less time with the men, but the best officers know how to balance their time. They know just how much time to spend in the kitchen and the sitting rooms with the men. They know whey to just head up to the office and stay there. In the best scenario, the men know when to let the officer lead and when to settle issues in such away as not to trouble the officer. I have always been told that in a perfect world, the men run the house and the officer runs the company.

This was a great topic to start. To try and analyze the supervisor/firefighter relationship is very difficult, especially to someone who does not reside within the ranks of our respective profession. In other professions you do not eat three meals a day with your boss. You don't reside in the same building a few nights a week. Above all, you do not enter into hazardous environments with your boss. I believe that the underlying concept of the brotherhood and the responsibility we have for one another transcends rank, to some degree.
I'm simply a fireman, no bars for this guy. Not yet at least and I like to think that I pay attention to the dynamic and here is are my observations. In New York City, following promotion, you are indeed removed from your immediate work environment to attend FLiPs. Once you complete that schooling, you are assigned to a division and often a Boro that is different from where you served as a fireman. Suddenly everyone calls you "Lou" and you are responsible for EVERYTHING that happens with that company during the tour. I have to imagine that this does help the transition since, in all likelihood, no one at that company knows you as anything other than a boss. However, you knew yourself as fireman, so I would imagine that it is a difficult internal transitions to make. Would I be wrong to assume that the first promotion is the most difficult to adjust too?
In my limited experience, the best bosses are rarely feared, sometimes loved and always respected. In our system, we live in the same house as officers, right up to the rank of Deputy Chief. There should be a mutual respect between the rank and file and the boss. He is the superior officer. He has gained rank and with that comes responsibility and that should not be challenged by the lesser rank. From his perspective, you cook his meals, make up the rack for him and clean his office. To some degree, as you move past the Co. Commander (Capt.) and on to chief, he spends a lot less time with the men, but the best officers know how to balance their time. They know just how much time to spend in the kitchen and the sitting rooms with the men. They know whey to just head up to the office and stay there. In the best scenario, the men know when to let the officer lead and when to settle issues in such away as not to trouble the officer. I have always been told that in a perfect world, the men run the house and the officer runs the company.

You are so right. It's really difficult to make the transition into a leadership role on the smaller jobs, and I imagine in volunteer departments as well. In the City, they transfer you out of your Battalion, your Division, your Borough in most cases right?
Take a small job with five firehouses and 70 members. Where are you going to go and make the change? Right in your same five houses, with the same 70 members.
Now you go to FLiPs, come back, in my case with two bars on the collar. That went over well at Randall's Island too. There was a guy in Flips from upstate that was a chief. Firefighter to chief. Talk about a leap. I spent half the time I was at the Rock explaining why we didn't have Lieutenants at the time. Now the job has Lts, much better transition for a firefighter to go to company officer then to tour command, than to skip the company officer part. But a lot of us do/did.
Even jobs like FDMV, NRFD; they aren't so huge that you can take a new officer and start over in a whole new environment. You want to practice the book and try to live by it.
But you get back, with all the knowledge you've absorbed from Flips, even though much of the classtime was devoted to FDNY operations, and now your brothers are calling you sir and you have a new level of performance you have to bring to the job every day.
It gets tested, guys have issues, problems arise, how do you handle them, do you help the brothers stay out of trouble, do you become hard nosed, do you want to be loved or feared?
I always took the meaning of my job to protect my guys as just that. Protect them in every possible way I could, so they could go home at the end of their tours to their families. There's a way to ensure bail-out systems get inspected and serviced regularly, and the members get to be trained and retrained. Commanders just have to be enabled with the authority and responsibility to carry it out. Too much micro-management on smaller jobs. Too many times a tour commander will get squeezed between a chief and his squad.
A really good boss will give the tour commander the authority, he'll pass it to company officers and the whole system works like it supposed to.
Good judgement by the commander is neccesary; we can't take our leadership roles to the extremes; laxidical or authoritarian.
In some cases if it isn't going well for a leader, it's because they can't listen and adapt to what is being told to them. A good commander is a good listener, in my opinion.

I think you're confusing me with someone else. I wouldn't want to take any credit for all the great work that our bailout rope committee members are doing. I am not involved and I have total confidence their efforts. These days I am mostly a paper pusher although I am a very interested observer of this issue.
I do think one common problem that most departments, including ours, are going to have after spending all this time and money on selecting bailout rope systems is providing mandatory, ongoing, realistic training, as well as mandating that the systems be worn at all times and inspected regularly. The only way to do this for our own members benefit is to not only provide the opportunities for regular training, but to mandate that all members participate, and hold people accountable for not completing training as well as not regularly inspecting and wearing the systems.
Accountability means someone has to be the "bad guy" and unfortunately too many fire service "leaders" are more concerned with being liked than with taking the necessary steps to increase firefighter health and safety...this would apply to many areas such as seatbelts, physical conditioning, regular, realistic training aimed at everyone not just at the junior guys who are still gung-ho, etc., but this is all a topic for another thread I guess....

This is true and a secondary panic avoidance-type break is a good idea. I'd never heard of that before.
This device has been deployed several times and was first used (member actually out the window on rope) about three years ago. He was a seasoned guy, 25 years give or take, and he was able to use it successfully. He did burn his hands in the process. 2 things to take away from this:
One, obviously he found it easier and necessary to remove his gloves. Although we train with our gloves on, in reality, you just might pullem' off. The oven mitts they issue are poor at best. More importantly, if his hands were burned at the height of the window sill, how hot do you think it was to chase him out the window.
Considering that this device has clearly saved lives, it is something that everyone who will be in the building should have. You should be extremely proficient in it's use and mindful of the condition you keep it in. You owe it to yourself, your family and (very sadly) all of the brothers who's lives might have been saved by this device and who's passing created the urgency to provide these devices to the rest of us.
Train regularly as ALS said. I'd say 6 months is a good time frame. Mark it on the drill calender, "practice bail-out and repack personal systems".

This is true and a secondary panic avoidance-type break is a good idea. I'd never heard of that before.
This device has been deployed several times and was first used (member actually out the window on rope) about three years ago. He was a seasoned guy, 25 years give or take, and he was able to use it successfully. He did burn his hands in the process. 2 things to take away from this:
One, obviously he found it easier and necessary to remove his gloves. Although we train with our gloves on, in reality, you just might pullem' off. The oven mitts they issue are poor at best. More importantly, if his hands were burned at the height of the window sill, how hot do you think it was to chase him out the window.
Considering that this device has clearly saved lives, it is something that everyone who will be in the building should have. You should be extremely proficient in it's use and mindful of the condition you keep it in. You owe it to yourself, your family and (very sadly) all of the brothers who's lives might have been saved by this device and who's passing created the urgency to provide these devices to the rest of us.
Train regularly as ALS said. I'd say 6 months is a good time frame. Mark it on the drill calender, "practice bail-out and repack personal systems".