nfd2004

I think this leads up to many additional questions. A check of this town's total population shows in 2010 they had 4,247 people.
 
1) With a small community population such as this, "would there really be a need for this ladder truck"
 
2) What additional ladder trucks are available through a mutual aid system.
 
3) What types and sizes of buildings are in this town ?
 
4) How many members are certified to operate this piece of apparatus. More importantly how many are able to respond in a moments notice.
 
Based on a picture that was sent to me of the 4th alarm fire today (11/21), this building appears to be a 1 1/2 story frame, perhaps 20 x 60 from what I can see. At the time this picture was taken, it is totally involved.

I think this leads up to many additional questions. A check of this town's total population shows in 2010 they had 4,247 people.
 
1) With a small community population such as this, "would there really be a need for this ladder truck"
 
2) What additional ladder trucks are available through a mutual aid system.
 
3) What types and sizes of buildings are in this town ?
 
4) How many members are certified to operate this piece of apparatus. More importantly how many are able to respond in a moments notice.
 
Based on a picture that was sent to me of the 4th alarm fire today (11/21), this building appears to be a 1 1/2 story frame, perhaps 20 x 60 from what I can see. At the time this picture was taken, it is totally involved.

On a follow up to this story, just got word of a 4th Alarm going on in this town as I write this (Monday, 11/21/2016 at 0900 hours).

I think this leads up to many additional questions. A check of this town's total population shows in 2010 they had 4,247 people.
 
1) With a small community population such as this, "would there really be a need for this ladder truck"
 
2) What additional ladder trucks are available through a mutual aid system.
 
3) What types and sizes of buildings are in this town ?
 
4) How many members are certified to operate this piece of apparatus. More importantly how many are able to respond in a moments notice.
 
Based on a picture that was sent to me of the 4th alarm fire today (11/21), this building appears to be a 1 1/2 story frame, perhaps 20 x 60 from what I can see. At the time this picture was taken, it is totally involved.

On a follow up to this story, just got word of a 4th Alarm going on in this town as I write this (Monday, 11/21/2016 at 0900 hours).

 
A quick look at their apparatus shows that their only other fire suppression units are "engine tankers" by their designation, 1000 and 1750 gal. This would make me think that a sizable portion of their district has no or un-reliable water sources. Running a "quint" with only 300 gallons of water would be un-arguably a horrible decision if that is the case. If you are only going to maintain two pieces, then the second must have a considerable water capacity as well. It appears they consolidated a medium duty rescue and pumper into the 2013 replacement as well. 
 
Maybe these gentlemen are just ahead of their time in acknowledging they have no true need for a tower ladder and that a 3/4 of a million dollar ladder truck sitting around is not a good investment. 

On a follow up to this story, just got word of a 4th Alarm going on in this town as I write this (Monday, 11/21/2016 at 0900 hours).

I think this leads up to many additional questions. A check of this town's total population shows in 2010 they had 4,247 people.
 
1) With a small community population such as this, "would there really be a need for this ladder truck"
 
2) What additional ladder trucks are available through a mutual aid system.
 
3) What types and sizes of buildings are in this town ?
 
4) How many members are certified to operate this piece of apparatus. More importantly how many are able to respond in a moments notice.
 
Based on a picture that was sent to me of the 4th alarm fire today (11/21), this building appears to be a 1 1/2 story frame, perhaps 20 x 60 from what I can see. At the time this picture was taken, it is totally involved.

On a follow up to this story, just got word of a 4th Alarm going on in this town as I write this (Monday, 11/21/2016 at 0900 hours).

"LayTheLine", I must agree with you about a 12 story building. Most places do NOT have 43 personnel to handle such an incident. But also as well, MOST Places do NOT have 12 story buildings either. Most are 2 or 3 story as in the other examples presented.
 
 The city you described in your example is very similar to the description of Bridgeport, Ct. (8 Engines, 3 Ladders, 1 Rescue with four members on each). They DO have 12 story buildings. They also have a mutual aid plan which is set up for when something like that happens. That would bring in a response to cover the rest of the city from outside career departments.
 
 But for most places, it is the everyday 2 1/2 frame or 3 story brick building that this NFPA recommendation might be trying to explain. If a city doesn't have high rise buildings, there's no need to justify at least 43 firefighters on duty. But for many places, there is a need to justify 15 firefighters. After that it becomes a mutual aid response. I could list at least a dozen in Connecticut alone that fit that description.
 
 Even within the "Fractured Fire Service of Norwich, Ct" there are 12 Firefighters on duty around the clock. That city has NO BUILDINGS OVER 7 stories. When everybody "IS" tied up at a fire, mutual aid kicks in. Not only to respond to the incident, BUT to cover the empty firehouses as well.
 
 Here's an interesting fact to consider though. Stretching a hose line up to a Third Floor with "2 Firefighters", vs "3 Firefighters". It has been proven that by just adding that one extra firefighter, that hose line can be stretched TWICE as fast. Thereby getting water on the fire quicker, preventing that fire from getting bigger.
 
 This NFPA Standard is NOT only talking about recommendations for 12 story buildings. It is also referring to the much smaller buildings and the type of response initially required to successfully complete the job without loosing the building or perhaps it's occupants.
 
I think any firefighter who has pulled up to a 2 story building at 2 AM with less than 15 firefighters, and having reports of people still trapped inside will certainly understand the value of this on duty recommendation. And for the citizens in there trying to get every breathe of fresh air they can - before aid can reach them, "I think they might understand as well".

 
This is repeated so many times over in America. Most taxpayers consider firefighters as just a burden on their tax dollars. That is UNTIL......... it's too late.
 
For many, they pay for education, police, public works, but by far paying for firefighters seems to be the biggest problem. Sometimes, these firefighters don't even get the support from other firefighters, right within their own communities. Such is the case where in my own community, so often other firefighters will try to push for the cutting of manning.
 
 People will say, "but firefighters aren't fighting enough fires to make that manning necessary". I say to that, we all are paying for our military and I'm glad when we're NOT fighting a war. Most of us also pay insurance premiums on our homes, cars or apartments. Yet, we don't use that insurance policy unless needed. 
 
 To the average taxpayer, a group of career firefighters is merely a burden on their pocketbook. But tonight if they are one of the unfortunate one's, they could very quickly change that attitude. They now call them THEIR HEROs. It happens quickly and without warning. It's happened before and it will happen again. Meantime firefighters are forced to take much more risk than is already required. But most took an oath to perform "the saving of lives and property". We are talking human lives and most firefighters will throw themselves into danger to do whatever is possible to get those human lives out of danger.
 
 To some, Firefighters are a Burden.
 To some, Firefighters are a Hero
 

 
This is repeated so many times over in America. Most taxpayers consider firefighters as just a burden on their tax dollars. That is UNTIL......... it's too late.
 
For many, they pay for education, police, public works, but by far paying for firefighters seems to be the biggest problem. Sometimes, these firefighters don't even get the support from other firefighters, right within their own communities. Such is the case where in my own community, so often other firefighters will try to push for the cutting of manning.
 
 People will say, "but firefighters aren't fighting enough fires to make that manning necessary". I say to that, we all are paying for our military and I'm glad when we're NOT fighting a war. Most of us also pay insurance premiums on our homes, cars or apartments. Yet, we don't use that insurance policy unless needed. 
 
 To the average taxpayer, a group of career firefighters is merely a burden on their pocketbook. But tonight if they are one of the unfortunate one's, they could very quickly change that attitude. They now call them THEIR HEROs. It happens quickly and without warning. It's happened before and it will happen again. Meantime firefighters are forced to take much more risk than is already required. But most took an oath to perform "the saving of lives and property". We are talking human lives and most firefighters will throw themselves into danger to do whatever is possible to get those human lives out of danger.
 
 To some, Firefighters are a Burden.
 To some, Firefighters are a Hero
 

As long as the public know that firefighters will throw themselves into danger to do whatever is possible to get those human lives out of danger, nothing is going to change their mindset.  For the firefighters they are caught between a rock and a hard place; many of us took an oath to help save lives and property and if we know someone's life is in danger all the rules of OSHA and NFPA generally go out the window as opposed to standing around waiting for the minimum requirement of firefighters arrive on the scene.  The best thing I think we can do is to educate the public as to the importance of proper staffing and ideally change their mindset.  Most likely it'll be an uphill battle but you have to start somewhere.

 
This is repeated so many times over in America. Most taxpayers consider firefighters as just a burden on their tax dollars. That is UNTIL......... it's too late.
 
For many, they pay for education, police, public works, but by far paying for firefighters seems to be the biggest problem. Sometimes, these firefighters don't even get the support from other firefighters, right within their own communities. Such is the case where in my own community, so often other firefighters will try to push for the cutting of manning.
 
 People will say, "but firefighters aren't fighting enough fires to make that manning necessary". I say to that, we all are paying for our military and I'm glad when we're NOT fighting a war. Most of us also pay insurance premiums on our homes, cars or apartments. Yet, we don't use that insurance policy unless needed. 
 
 To the average taxpayer, a group of career firefighters is merely a burden on their pocketbook. But tonight if they are one of the unfortunate one's, they could very quickly change that attitude. They now call them THEIR HEROs. It happens quickly and without warning. It's happened before and it will happen again. Meantime firefighters are forced to take much more risk than is already required. But most took an oath to perform "the saving of lives and property". We are talking human lives and most firefighters will throw themselves into danger to do whatever is possible to get those human lives out of danger.
 
 To some, Firefighters are a Burden.
 To some, Firefighters are a Hero
 

THANK YOU for posting this. I think it is something that is very easy to follow, as well as how it presents it's very important points. I assure you I intend to share this with many others as well.

Pretty cool video.
 
 

Perhaps an Update or Progress Report is due.
 
Despite No Progress being made on the Fractured Fire Service in Norwich, there has been No shortage of the Career Fire Department calling for the closest volunteer departments, unlike their surrounding departments have done. Instead of calling for another OUTSIDE Department, the Fire Commanders in this case called for the closet and put their services to work. As you recall from many earlier post here, that has NOT always been the case when additional help was requested. In one case two volunteer departments were requested from 5 and 8 miles away, despite a firehouse with nine fulltime firefighters and a battalion chief only 1.8 miles up the road.
 
 But in the cases below that I am about to list, in ALL OF THESE INCIDENTS, the CLOSEST LOCAL VOLUNTEER FIRE DEPTS WERE REQUESTED. These were serious fires in which occurred from October 16, to Oct 30th.
 
 1) October 16 - Former Newspaper Building at 66 Franklin St being converted into restaurant. Two story brick with fire in the cockloft.
 2) October 23 - Large vacant mill building at 132 Franklin St with fire on the second floor
 3) October 24 - Two and three story vacant former YMCA Building at 337 Main St. Fire on the second floor of former residents area
 4) October 28 - Fire in an occupied 2 1/2 frame dwelling, making 11 occupants homeless
 5) October 30 - Fire in a one story commercial car sales and service building
 
In addition to the above, only a week or so before this, there was a fire in an occupied 4 story brick building at 321 Main St. I just don't have the exact date.
 
In ALL of these fires, they required at least one hand line operating. In some cases multiple lines had to be stretched.
 
The point is, in each one of these incidents a response was requested of the surrounding volunteer departments. This type of mutual aid plan shows the priorities of these departments. One department shows how important in is to call the closest department and quickest to respond. While others have a track record of calling much farther away departments regardless of how much more property burns or whose lives they might be affecting.
 
 Which department would you feel is doing the right thing for the people they serve.
 
 I would just like to pass on a recent newspaper article regarding some of the fires. The Norwich arson Task Force is back in action. They have an excellent track record as I know many of them personally, both fire and police. Most also bring years of experience with them. Our biggest problem here I see is NOT catching the arsonist BUT in getting rid of some fire commanders that should have been put out of business years ago.
 
http://www.theday.com/policefirecourts/20161102/norwich-arson-task-force-is-back-in-action     (I hope it works)

Downtown building recovering after Three Alarm Fire.
 
http://www.theday.com/local/20161017/foundry-66-facility-in-norwich-recovering-after-saturday-fire  
 
After reading of this story, I wrote these comments.
 
OUOTE:
"I am very happy to read of the good news. This is the result of the local fire departments all working together. It proves to all of us how things CAN and Should be done".
 
"Whether it's a fire in the response of the city's paid fire department on Franklin St, an apartment house fire in the Occum section, a hazardous materials leak on Otrabando Ave in Yantic, a serious building fire at the Uncas on the Thames Campus in the East Great Plains area, a serious car accident with a victim pinned in a car in the Laurel Hill area, or even the preplanning of a large converted mill in the Taftville area, "When all of the local fire departments work together, that's when everything works out the best".
 
 "Over the years, I was involved in many incidents in which about a dozen firefighters were able to save entire city blocks from burning down ONLY because of a group of volunteer firefighters responding to our call for help. Yet I have watched serious incidents go on as other fire trucks from farther away drove right by our firehouse".
 
 "I have taken a hard stand AGAINST this type of activity. It is my hope that positive changes can be made for ALL the citizens of Norwich".
 End of Quote.
 
 I told one individual on there who had commented earlier about the lack of cooperation - "I am fighting for you and everyone else".
 
Also note that when I referred to incidents of the past in the quoted second paragraph, they were actual incidents in which the Norwich FD was NOT allowed to respond, even though they were staffed and much closer.
 
 

Perhaps an Update or Progress Report is due.
 
Despite No Progress being made on the Fractured Fire Service in Norwich, there has been No shortage of the Career Fire Department calling for the closest volunteer departments, unlike their surrounding departments have done. Instead of calling for another OUTSIDE Department, the Fire Commanders in this case called for the closet and put their services to work. As you recall from many earlier post here, that has NOT always been the case when additional help was requested. In one case two volunteer departments were requested from 5 and 8 miles away, despite a firehouse with nine fulltime firefighters and a battalion chief only 1.8 miles up the road.
 
 But in the cases below that I am about to list, in ALL OF THESE INCIDENTS, the CLOSEST LOCAL VOLUNTEER FIRE DEPTS WERE REQUESTED. These were serious fires in which occurred from October 16, to Oct 30th.
 
 1) October 16 - Former Newspaper Building at 66 Franklin St being converted into restaurant. Two story brick with fire in the cockloft.
 2) October 23 - Large vacant mill building at 132 Franklin St with fire on the second floor
 3) October 24 - Two and three story vacant former YMCA Building at 337 Main St. Fire on the second floor of former residents area
 4) October 28 - Fire in an occupied 2 1/2 frame dwelling, making 11 occupants homeless
 5) October 30 - Fire in a one story commercial car sales and service building
 
In addition to the above, only a week or so before this, there was a fire in an occupied 4 story brick building at 321 Main St. I just don't have the exact date.
 
In ALL of these fires, they required at least one hand line operating. In some cases multiple lines had to be stretched.
 
The point is, in each one of these incidents a response was requested of the surrounding volunteer departments. This type of mutual aid plan shows the priorities of these departments. One department shows how important in is to call the closest department and quickest to respond. While others have a track record of calling much farther away departments regardless of how much more property burns or whose lives they might be affecting.
 
 Which department would you feel is doing the right thing for the people they serve.
 
 I would just like to pass on a recent newspaper article regarding some of the fires. The Norwich arson Task Force is back in action. They have an excellent track record as I know many of them personally, both fire and police. Most also bring years of experience with them. Our biggest problem here I see is NOT catching the arsonist BUT in getting rid of some fire commanders that should have been put out of business years ago.
 
http://www.theday.com/policefirecourts/20161102/norwich-arson-task-force-is-back-in-action     (I hope it works)

 
"FD7807", I think you missed some of the questions.
 
  1) How would eliminating career firefighters NOT have an affect on public safety ?
 
  2) How does a group of union firefighters make this sound so risky and I assume you feel it shouldn't be ?
 
 Your latest response however is exactly the kind of response I would expect. A little self gratification by telling us you work 60 hours a week. Do you get paid for that time ? I would just guess that 20 of those hours are rated at time and a half.  I would hope you have enough to buy yourself that fresh new blue light. Yet you still make 100 FD calls and 100 training hours. I'm guessing again, that is in one year. Did you ever wonder how many FD calls the average career firefighter makes in one year ? Or did you ever think of the number of training hours those career firefighters spend in one year ? The same kind of career firefighters that you believe has no impact on the publics safety if taken away.
 
  "FD7807", I'm not talking about watching Chicago Fire on demand or Belly Bumps. What I am talking about is the reality of todays fire service. The one that so many of us tend to depend on.
 
 One more question from one of those "Keyboard Firefighters" if I may. Is it safe for us to assume that you NEVER took any exam for a career firefighter ? You never had any interest in doing that job at all. You are very happy as it is, working your 60 hours a week and doing your 100 FD calls and 100 training hours. Only you would know the real answer to that.
 
  But I bet you didn't know this. That as a little hobby of mine I spent time helping young volunteer firefighters that wanted to become career firefighters. And I wasn't the only career firefighter doing it. There was an entire group of us all from career departments in Connecticut. We helped them with the written, the oral etc. and because those young guys really pushed themselves and worked hard, most got on a career fire dept somewhere. Today they thank us. But "THEY" were the ones that really did it. And I must say that I think those career depts. got the best of the best.
 
Sorry for getting off track here, but I just thought it was a pretty good story to tell. And by the way, they were ALL UNION FIREFIGHTERS and they did it all for FREE. No charge at all.

Date: 10/19/2016
 Time: 19:36
 Location: 1 Southfield Ave (Between Selleck St & Homestead Ave)
 District: SFD 2 Channel: Ground 1 Weather: 71, Clear
 Units: 1st Alarm:      E2, E5, E4, E6 (RIT), T2, R1, U4 (IC),          Working Fire: U6 (Safety), FM105, FM111,          2nd Alarm:     E3, T3          3rd Alarm:     E1, T1, C1 (Chief of Department), C2 (Assistant Chief), C11 (Assistant Chief of Volunteers), FM101 (Chief Fire Marshal)          Special Call:   E9          Callback:       E12, U5 (Deputy Chief)          Relocated:    E7 (Station 1), E8 (Station 3)          SEMS:           M5, M3, M901 (Supervisor)          SPD:             1B31, 1A42, 1E34, 2C292, 1C30, 2A24, 3B33, 8D77 (Shift Commander), 8S3 (Sergeant)          VFD's            E34 (Glenbrook), E41, T45 (Belltown), E52 (Springdale), E64, T67, R66, K68 (Turn of River) all staffed in quarters due to incident.
 Writer: AFS1970 *** At time of this call SFD Station 3 (2nd due) & Station 1 (3rd due) were at other incidents. ***
 Description: Multiple calls, conflicting between exterior brush fire and condominium fire. Possible exterior fire extending into building. E2 arriving in area reported visible fire in building. Once on scene E2 confirmed working fire and transmitted 2nd alarm due to exposures. U4 arrived and assumed command, transmitting the 3rd alarm shortly there after.   At 20:10 U4 gave the MARC update of fire on all three floors of a 20 x 40 foot condominium, fire darkening down, Probable will hold.   Fire under control at 20:26, U4 expects to free up 3rd alarm companies shortly.   E12 was sent to assist with picking up hose and equipment. M3 was sent late into the incident for an injured civilian. Edited 5 minutes ago by AFS1970

Recently, I received an email stating that my message has been heard. Here is a part of that email:
 
 " The leaders of this city are now focused on some of the many problems you brought to light, and they are addressing these issues in a carefully constructed plan. This plan is not to eliminate or hurt anyone or organization but rather to address the fundamental issues that you have raised. I know you have probably heard all this before and waited in vain for results, and, for far too long they were not substantive enough to effect meaningful change".
 
   In addition he wrote:
   I write to you now, to ask that you give us the space we need to actually accomplish some things that we are in the wings of change. Your continued efforts are no longer necessary as they have heard you, seen it for themselves, and agree that things need to change. I am asking you to let us take it from here.
  Nothing says that if this fails like so many other efforts in the past that you are prohibited from doing the heavy lifting again.
 
  The ABOVE is a portion of that email I received from a high ranking city official who has been involved with this since DAY ONE starting in February, 2015. Since that time, he as well as other officials were sent over a dozen emails citing serious incidents that needed to be addressed regarding the fire service of Norwich, Ct.  It is my intention to respect that wish and to refrain from sending any additional emails concerning this matter. I have sent my last email to city officials explaining to them, the next step is to seek legal counsel for the victim(s) suffering a loss due to the lack of any action on the city's part. Should that happen to a victim tomorrow, my heavy lifting will go into affect should those Norwich Firefighters NOT respond.
 
 Until the time that actual changes take place, the city and it's fire commanders are willing to continue rolling the dice. I have suggested that if these current fire commanders are NOT willing to accept this change, someone in city office needs to tell them, "It's time to pack your bags, we can find someone to replace you".
 
 

Reading some of the comments posted, it appears to me that the "citizens" are NOT too pleased with the fact that those records were NOT offered. This most recent newspaper article seems to have really hurt the Volunteer Depts. The members of the Five Volunteer departments owe it all to their leaders for representing them in this way. A few comments:
  1) "What are they trying to hide"
  2) "This is a disgrace"
 
  The talking has been going on for years. About 40 years as far as I can tell you. The numerous meetings with city officials, the Norwich Firefighter Union Officials, each of the many Volunteer Chiefs who have served - the hand shakes - the promises, ALL have been a COMPLETE waste of time.
 
  I think the simplest way to describe what is going on here is just go to the Stamford thread and every place you see the word "Stamford", just replace it with the word "Norwich". That would give the readers a pretty good picture of just what is going on here.

Sorry, for those members who were NOT able to view that video (Bedroom fire - above), the video has been corrected. The problem was as simple as a comma placed instead of a decimal point. Even hard to see with the super special lens on the bifocals I have on.
 
 So for you to view that example of a bedroom fire and how quickly it could spread if not attacked in the very early stages, just click on it above.
 
 Also, it was this same campus where there was a working fire in an occupied 2 1/2 story frame building, just about one year ago from this date. That is one of the eight incidents that I had been referring to. Also in that fire were several other occupants for treatment of some type of social issues under the care of a trained staff. That building had to be closed down for a period of two weeks while repairs were made. Resulting in the relocation of these clients and the staff members.
 
  Interesting to note, that while the same number of career firefighters (9) and a battalion chief were located only that 1.8 miles away, this building fire got the response of one volunteer fire dept as it's normal response area (actually farther away than that career station within the same city), plus they requested the assistance of another local volunteer fire dept, 5 miles away (they actually rode right by NFD Hqs while they were outside training), plus another volunteer dept from an entirely different town - 8 miles away.
 
  Now, you be the judge and tell me if that makes any sense at all.  If it does, please give us the reasons why.
 
 Thanks for your interest.

Here is the latest local newspaper story on "The Fractured Norwich, Ct Fire Service". Some say they REFUSE to turn over their members training records for the latest ISO (Insurance Services Office) report in an attempt to improve the city's rating from a grade of 4 out of a possible 10.  As a department that takes city funded tax dollars, I say "those training records are public information and should be shown at request." Didn't the taxpayers pay for much of that required training as well ?
 
  I also feel that any fire department that trains its firefighters, should be very proud of their accomplishments. So why would you object to showing this.
 
 From the New London Day Newspaper, October 1, 2016. I hope the link works. You may need to click on "News", then "Local", to view it.
 
http://www.theday.com/local/20161001/norwich-fire-depts-feud-complicates-effort-to-improve-city-insurance-rating