efermann

Too bad he didn't speak in front of the education department as well. Hopefully his testimony is passed on.
As a high school teacher, I can't tell you how happy I am to hear someone say this. Those have been my thought for far too long. There are some students in my classes who should definitely pursue a path other than college. I don't think society (or their parents) realize how important other career paths are and that they shouldn't be seen as consolation prizes. Keeping students who would truly benefit from a learning environment other than a classroom in a desk for four years helps no one - the student, society, etc. High schools used to offer classes like "shop". While those classes weren't meant to teach someone everything there was to know about carpentry, etc, at least students would be exposed to those essential skilled labor fields. If the class served to interest the student, they had an idea that there was something out there for them to study. I remember coming home with all sorts of stuff I made out of wood, metal, etc. I can't say I was great at it, but at least those classes were offered. And I knew how to use most of the tools in the classes already from when I helped my dad rebuild the porch, work on the car, etc. It's rare to find a school that offers classes like than anymore. There are the BOCES programs for students around Westchester (and other parts of NYS), but enrollment is often limited.
I've been reading educational literature lately in which there is a push for "college or career readiness". I've yet to see that happen, but it would be great if it ever did.

Yes, I've heard about this before. Sounds like a great system. Too bad for many of the younger members of the volunteer fire service here in the U.S. that their seniors will never fight for such a system here...imagine if we took all the money spent (wasted) in the volunteer fire service on mega-over duplication of apparatus, fire stations, and equipment, LOSAP, tax breaks, education and recruitment incentives, workers comp and liability insurance, lavish social events, etc.. We could have a truly professional and accountable fire service throughout NYS, and many of the younger members of the volunteer fire service would have a better opportunity to make a few bucks and have access to quality training, someday maybe leading to a fulltime career.
Instead, the myth of how much savings to the taxpayers is provided by volunteer firefighters will continue to be perpetuated by their leaders. Wake up young guys and shake things up a bit!

OFD arrived with ladder 41, Engine 97, Engine 100 ,2331 and 2334. and 25 Ossining Firefighters. There were no Sing Sing Fire brigade members. OFD was escorted in and a count was taken of the FF. There was no delay upon arrival. We arrived at the block and was advised by corrections officers that there was a loud pop followed by smoke and then the electric going out. Once the keys to an exterior door and gate was obtained, a 2 1/2 was stretched through the door and down a set of stairs where the smoke was coming from. The stairs lead down to a utility hallway that housed steam pipes and electrical conduit. 3/4 of the way down the hall the fire was located (with T.I.C.) in an electrical room. Upon a second confirmation that the power to the block was shut off, the room was entered and a large junction box on the ceiling containing feeder cables were burning along with combutibles on the floor, The fire was extinguished and the smoke was evacuated from the building.
Upon leaving the complex, the FF were counted and the apparatus' examined. There was no contact with inmates, many of them were still in their cells until they were evacuated. The operation went well without incident.
2331
Special thanks to Briarcliff FD for having their Tower Ladder stand by in their quarters. (OFD TL-42 OOS )

I agree JBE. As a father, this actually makes my stomach churn in a real bad way.
God bless those kids.

This is a ridiculous statement. What you are referring to is a combination department, not a career department. The career member in question was almost certainly directed to drive the apparatus to the parade by his volunteer "superiors", who very probably refer to him (with intent and purpose) as "driver", not "Firefighter".
Kudos to the many level headed, volunteers who care about their community and have had the courage to criticize in this thread the disgraceful practice of taking apparatus out of their district for a parade.
I do have an agenda about lots of issues. One of my issues (concerns) is the ridiculous and hypocritical practice of bringing apparatus to parades outside of the district. I hear constantly about the need for funding and incentives to recruit to fill the diminishing ranks of volunteer firefighters who will "save the community the enormous cost of a paid fire department" (btw always using the word "paid" as opposed to "career"...this too is done with intent and purpose)...It is also incessantly and inanely regurgitated that "volunteers and career guys are the same and provide the same level of service"...The practice of bringing apparatus and a large percentage of members to parades outside district flies directly in the face of these statements.
It is apparent that this is a legitimate issue and it is not unfair basing of volunteer by career members. Many volunteer firefighters are ethical and have common sense enough to realize that this archaic practice no longer has a place in the fire service if "we", yes "we" (career and volunteer) take the oaths we have sworn to our community's seriously. Many volunteer firefighters have stated so in this thread and in other threads previously...
Are we beating a dead horse? Absolutely not! The problem still exists! Any avenue available to expose this problem for what it is should be taken. Many people outside of the fire service are unaware of this situation and many inside of the fire service are complacent and / or resistant to change. So, those of us who have an agenda will repeat our mantra...most others will remain on the sidelines, some may feel inspired to join in and speak up for positive change, and of course we will always have those individuals who will rationalize, attack the messenger, or blame shift.
Eventually though, apparatus in out of district parades will go the way of horse drawn engines, wooden ladders, and pullup rubber boots (Lord, how I miss those!)
Hopefully, the discarding of this practice will happen as the result of rational, forward thinking fire service leaders and not as a consequence of a high- profile tragedy.

If you don't use it at least once a week or its something that will save your butt...you don't need it. Some of you have home depot in your pockets.
I do have one question..for those of you that carry a spanner "wrench." Is there a shortage of spanner wrenches on your apparatus...and I see many students who carry a single folding spanner wrench...you normally need 2. Often the longest lays come from your supply line so you need a LDH spanner if you need one for that.
PFD...you carry 2 window punches? Your one of the ones who said you carry a spanner wrench. Also a k tool? how do you keep your pants up? lol.
Remember the biggest thing with a device to cut...you have to be able to use it one handed and get to it with either hand. Gerbers and leathermans suck for that and cut very little as they don't open wide. I carry a cutter that looks something like pruning shears and cuts cable tv wire, rdx etc. I carry chocks..not on my helmet..tired of pulling one and having them all fall out..I use extinguisher plastic pin locks and drill a hole in my chocks and put them on my coat. Otherwise a few nails. Survior light went bye bye. Got hung up on it and saw no purpose in having a light on my coat that pointed to the ground. I love the Vulcan..the blue led's stand out when your partner is searching the other side of the room and they are lightweight. All those fancy helmet lights..another thing to get hung up on or inhibit your ability to slide between studs if you have to wall breach. No thanks...I want to be light and slim.

First off....I carry too much! My coat is heavy!
Left Pocket: Safety Glasses, hose strap, 15' of nylon webbing rolled up and a pair of work gloves
Right Pocket: Small vice grips, lineman pliers, shove knife, screw driver with 4 tips and a Channellock 911 cutting plier. (CUTS THROUGH CABLE LIKE BUTTER)
On the front of my coat I sewed the sheath of a CRKT survival knife with a 5" blade, half serrated. Easy to grab if hung up in wires and such. A lot of old buildings have cable, internet and phone wires run through the hallway in plastic molding. This molding is high, as in above the doorways. Only a little bit of heat will melt this and bring it down on your head! A good blade or pair of snips is a must!
Along these lines of getting caught; you need to keep calm in order to free yourself. Remember the maneuvers with the mask. You should be able to do anything with that mask blind! Taking it off, moving it around, pushing it forward and getting it back on should be second nature.

Very true. It will need to come from outside. 2 ways its coming, 1 the state can mandate manditory tax caps (which they have prommised they will do). If the mandate does not exempt major costs (pension, health ins and bonds) the combo districts in Westchester will be forced to lay off 4-6 firefighters every year until the law is changed or they have no firefighters left. 2 the state recently mandated that the smallest school district will be disolved and must merge with larger ones.
The Greenburgh combo depts have had 2 options for consolidation (just the 3 or with other career/combo depts in Westchester). The 2nd one was basicly ignored. An interesting political dynamic exists in Edgemont with Town Supervisor Finer that they would rather become a village than have anything to do with the town. So I do not see the 3 merging without outside force as listed aboved. Other communities like the Greenburgh river depts or Mt Pleasant have gotten to a point where lack of volunteers is becoming critical. At times in some towns in Westchester more rigs exist than the number of available firefighters. At some point the depts will have to pull their heads out of the sand and figure out how they are going to provide service.
But for how long?

George, Civil service testing is one way of testing/ranking candidates, but it is far from perfect. But whats to say that educational requirements should not be use along with that testing. Many depts require EMT or Paramedic certification or other training to be eligable for advancement. And most promotional exams require time in grade prior to testing. There are many fine fire ground officers, and firefighters, lts, capts, all learn through experience as they move up the ranks. But Chris is correct that the administrative positions also need experience and in most depts. there is no training progam for that. But a degree does provide the HR, Budget, Legal, planning and other managment background that is needed to administer a modern fire department.
In municipal government most fire depts and police depts. had salary parity 20 years ago. then for a number of reasons police depts pulled ahead. All required some college prior to taking the civil service exam. Sargents or lt's need a BA and Capts need a masters.
Is managing a fire dept that much simpler than a police dept.? I don't think so.

Is this a dig? If so, it's not particularly constructive... In fact, there is nothing funny about it, but it raises a real concern.
This is not to call into question the dedication of a particular organization's firemen, nor their professionalism and drive. Really, it doesn't need to be discussed in relation to ANY particular fire department. What an MCI such as this might highlight is a need for an MCI response plan that includes multiple agencies......or some kind of consolidation to form a larger agency with the means and necessity for more equipment.
I did not respond to this box yesterday, but I was at work and listening. There were an incredible amount of units on the scene to mitigate this disaster. Rescues 3 and 4 operated including, at least Collapse Rescue 3. That's 12 firemen, on top of an entire first alarm assignment. 39 pairs of hands. Add to that a few chief's and their aides, plus ESU and a FAST truck (Which sounds like a good idea to me when you have members working in a large, unstable and overturned bus). Top that off with 10+ EMS units, FDNY RAC 4 with temp. morgue set-up and Haz-Mat 1 to manage the fuel containment. That was all within the first few minutes. Many more followed. I'm sure you can up the tally with a great deal of DOT and Police units.
All of these resources and they had their hands full. These are people used to working together with a great deal of equipment at their disposal. More equipment than most Westchester Dept's. (outside of the bigger cities, Yonkers, NR, ect) have. So, what do you do? Who calls for what units and equipment? This seems like a perfect example of a need to utilize some kind of automatic response matrix with multiple F.D., P.D. and EMS agencies with a predetermined I.C. to maintain organization.
Clearly, and thankfully, this is an oddball event and no one knows exactly what to expect or how to perfectly handle each incident. However, it would be a good idea to consider what MIGHT be needed so that the proper personnel and apparatus are alerted quickly.

Posts such as this one lead me to believe we should be paying teachers even more !

This is shameful, but it's what I have come to expect from today's GOP. Politicians like the wimpy, cry baby Rep. John Boehner who have no respect for Cops, Firefighters or the military. He's never placed himself in harm's way to protect his country or another human being. He stood with the GOP when they held The Zadroga 9/11 Health and Compensation Bill hostage while demanding that Democrats join the GOP in extending tax breaks for the wealthiest 2% of Americans. After getting the tax breaks for their wealthy corporate campaign supporters, they subsequently cut the funding for Zadroga in half before passing it. BTW, Rep. John Boehner didn't even stay in Washington to vote on the final bill which occurred on December 22nd, 2010. He along with many other GOP rich kids had already gone home to celebrate Christmas with their families. I wonder what it feels like to walk away from your responsibilities as an elected public servant whenever you feel like it, leaving your work undone. As a Firefighter, I wouldn't know that feeling, nor did I ever have the desire to abandon my responsibilities for my personal enjoyment ... Rep. John Boehner is a disgrace.
Thank you for your service to our country Mr. Buckles ... May you rest in peace ...

i am missing something, colored nozzles for colored outlets right? so you have an extra 1 1/2" fog, and smooth bore, also the same with 2 1/2" fog and s/b nozzles for each outlet on your apparatus? Cus all hell breaks loose it seems if i put a blue nozzle with a red outlet.

A few shots from the exposure.... exposure.... which side would you call this?
These shots don't do the LDH lays justice. There's a LOT of hose out there to be picked up. Glad everyone is OK!

The clock said it all....

I've just finished reading the book "Triangle" which is, obviously, the story of this fire. But, the book begins with a look at the social conditions in NYC that led up to the fire and summarizes the legal impacts and development of unions and fire codes that were implemented as a result of this fire. It was a good book. I'd recommend it to anyone interested in 1) fire history or/or 2) US social & labor history.

I always like to get the insights of my colleagues in the fire service on incident management and size up. In that vein I'm starting this topic to tap into the knowledge and experience of the contributors here.
While pictures are good I like videos as they offer a more dynamic and true representation of what's going on. In this one the FD is not on scene yet, so it's open and there's no action to critique.
(edit) When posting replies to this video please identify that your response is in regards to scene #1 ( there are now 2 different incidents in this thread to discuss)
Here is scene #1:

I'll reserve my comments on the video so as not to spoil it. Take a look with no audio and describe your tactics based on the following;
You're the officer, you have a driver and 2 FFs on the crew with you. This is what you pull up on. It's unknown if anyone is inside and the next due Engine and the Truck are still 3 mins out......what would you do?
Cogs
ps If anyone has any other videos in which the FD has not yet arrived or is just arriving please post them for discussion.

Thank you for the link to the pictures. The streets look like they were packed pretty tight, and I can start make out most of the apparatus placement from these pictures. I can imagine there must have been at least a little bit of a logistical headache that came with trying to direct incoming units to get to and set up in particular locations.
Great pictures and thanks.

That video shows a lot of fire from that one side. I would love to see which apparatus (or at least what types - eng, ladder, tower ladder) were placed where. It's probably not going to happen with anything other than a sketch, but I think it would be a great learning tool to see where the different trucks were placed.
EDIT: I attached 2 different views from Bing maps in case anyone could use them to add some of this information. It looks like it was really tight on the two (B and C) exposures.

Youtube credit:justonmckinney
REMEMBER FELLAS....IT'S JUST A COMEDY....

That video shows a lot of fire from that one side. I would love to see which apparatus (or at least what types - eng, ladder, tower ladder) were placed where. It's probably not going to happen with anything other than a sketch, but I think it would be a great learning tool to see where the different trucks were placed.
EDIT: I attached 2 different views from Bing maps in case anyone could use them to add some of this information. It looks like it was really tight on the two (B and C) exposures.

Sounds like the rescue has to be immediate since the victim's position will rapidly become untenable.
Lay one ladder on the ground where the butt of a second ladder will be placed. Like an Ice rescue, that ladder on the ground will spread the weight. Use the stirrups at the heel of the climbing ladder to connect to the ladder on the ground.
PS
NEXT, CALL THE TV STATION AND THE BUILDING INSPECTOR.
When the reporter arrives, tell him/her to ask the building inpector "How did this fiasco ever get approved?"

I am not commenting on or critiquing the Asbury park fire since we do not know with certainty what actually happened yet. However...you are completely wrong regarding vertical ventilation...this should be accomplished as rapidly as possible regardless of hoseline positioning with one or two specific, rare exceptions which I will not go into here...PLEASE, do not make posts about such a critical life or death subject in such a self confident, matter of fact manner unless you know what you are talking about.....we have such limited fire duty these days and there are those who will apply what they learn on this forum on the fireground...
As far as your comments regarding horizontal ventilation, your guidelines are overly simplistic, and again, may cause more harm than good to those reading this if they decide to take it as gospel....when I have time I will post some correct information on horizontal ventilation unless (hopefully) someone beats me to it....
Please don't take this personal...I'm sure you mean well, but when such clearly incorrect information is posted about what is such a basic and important procedure on the fireground, it is essential that it be rebutted as quickly as possible and the correct information put forward...

The danger of total collapse involving a bow string truss roof became a graphic reality yesterday in Chicago. The following photos give a glimpse of the peaked bow string roof, and the poor condition of the roof structure. In photo one from the street, you cannot even see that the roof apparently has different structural components and designs. The bow string section is in the rear. In photo two you can see the chimney in the corner of the 3-4 exposure of the fire building in the lower right corner of the photo, partially obstructed by the trees. Disregard where the address is marking the building, the storefront that burned and area of collapse is below it, opposite the parking lot:

Moving closer the shape of the truss becomes apparent. Compare it to the flat roofs immediately surrounding it:

In this photo you can see clearly one of the broken trusses leaning against the far wall inside the collapse zone. Be sure to click through the photo gallery and you will see more evidence of the broken truss system.
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/gallery?section=news/local&id=7858152&photo=1

This is true. Add 4) job outside of town/district. However, it's not impossible for someone to manage those commitments with the commitment one must make towards a volunteer department. I know as I joined after the 1) wife, 2) house, and 3) kid. It's now kids. I would never claim to make the most calls in my company, but I certainly pull my weight and find myself near the top of the responses list. That is only possible because I have a very understanding 1) wife and 3) kids. The house kind of takes care of itself and doesn't give me much grief.
At any rate, if the future of volunteer departments is in question or doubt then it's probably time to do something different. One common complaint is that it's too expensive to live in this area and the people who can afford to live here aren't the people who will volunteer. I don't completely agree with that. It may be that the departments need to go after a different person as a member than they did 10, 20, or 30 years ago. It's not unusual to look at a membership list and see sons, friends, cousins, and relatives of former members. If those are the people are being forced out of the area due to economic reasons (which is a shame), departments MUST look beyond the families of current members. Times are changing and the membership of a department may need to change equally with the times. I'm certainly not suggesting I know how to do that, but merely stating that an open mind may need to be kept in order to keep a department or company viable. There does seem to be a lower value placed on volunteering from a majority of the population now. But some people will still have the time (or a very understanding family) and will find the value in volunteering. I don't think it's impossible.