FAS Teams Not Being Called

[CG206 29]

Regarding a recent fire in Peekskill area, not to judge anybody whatsoever, but if this was a true working fire, how come a FAST wasnt dispatched or put on standby?? There has been so much discussion lately about FF safety...this a good example. A fire in the walls on the #2 fl of a commercial building. I'm sure it took a few mins to open up and find the source and check for any further extension. First off, its a commercial building. What would have happened if the fire had in fact extended and now by opening it up, the fire has intensified and conditions are deteriorating quickly. What type of building construction was it? If a FAST was called or at a minimum put on standby upon confirming a 10-75, they would be set up at the scene or ready to respond now. If just dispatched when conditions have deteriorated, the FAST is now behind in response since it takes a few mins to assemble and respond plus a rapid FF rescue has been jeorpordized with the delay in response. Again, I'm by no means mocking anybody's decisions!!!!!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

1. What if conditions deteriorated?

You pull your units out of the bldg.

2. Why wasn't a FAST called?

Still a good question, it is IC discretion and I don't think it was overly involved at that point, the trick is size up not making a blind decision.

3. I see no reason to put a FAST on standby and I've stated why in previous posts. Especially in this scenario, if you were on standby conditions deteriorated and they called you and your in transit, nothing good coming by of that. Put you on standby often enough, response will diminished and people will pager surf waiting for "working fire." Not to mention more people will have fuel about jamming up the airwaves toning to make a complete FASTeam.

[hudson144 150]

sometimes at a fire scene things are not a raging working fire,i really do not know what happened in this situation but through size up and communications on the fireground decisions are made. my thought on fast teams has been posted before,sometimes if you have enough manpower the dept should and could utilize their own as a fast team. lets not have a block party when it isn't needed! be safe-hudson

[Mofire24 27]

CHRIS YOU DONT ALWAYS NEED A FASTEAM RESPONSE WE HAVE HAD ALOT OF ONE ROOM FIRES WHERE WE DIDNT CALL FOR A FASTEAM NOR DID WE NEED THEM THERE WHY TIE UP THE RESOURCES IF WE DONT NEED THEM AT ALL . HUDSON REGUARDING YOUR COMMENT ON HAVING YOUR OWN GUYS DO A FASTEAM FOR FIRE YOU COULD BE USING THOSE GUYS FOR THE ACTUAL ATTACK OF THE FIRE INSTEAD OF TIEING THEM UP ON FAST HENSE YOU CALLING IN A MUTUAL AID DEPT FOR FAST WHEN IT IS NEEDED.

[LineCapt 134]

Well, if you have a large department with several companies, why do you need to call for an external FAS team? Also, if it was a quick knockdown, chances are that the fire was out before that decision was considered, and the if the fire wasnt that big, there was probaly plenty of manpower.

[mikeinet 37]

Why is everyone so negative about the FASTeam concept?

it's not that big a deal to call out a fasteam to not need them, and be done with it. Is it part of some sort of a "macho man" concept? Seriously, if you have a man in a burning building there should be someone ready to run in there and get him out.

#1 rule of firefighter survival: There is no "typical" fire. Don't say "we dont need a FASTeam because this is a simple one room fire" - that's how death's have happened.

Goes back to the old idea of 1 man in, 1 man out (or 2 men out to get that 1 man) I see no reason why a fasteam isn't called or put on standby.

[CFD320 35]

In my opinion and many others in the fire service, a FAST team should be included in the original dispatch. This is not news to anyone.....by the time the IC reaches the scene and makes a determination that a FAST is necessary, too much time has passed.

CALL THE FAST AND CANCELL THEM IF THEY ARE NOT NEEDED.

FAST units are summoned to ensure the safety of all firefighters operating at the scene of a fire. FAST units should not be consuming valuable radio resources. If they are, summon a team that doesn't, by using multiple bands and channels.

A successful FAST operation is one where the team does nothing more than size up, set up, shut up, and wrap up. Please don’t misunderstand me, good FAST/RIT units are very proactive but shouldn't interfere with a host departments suppression efforts.

As for not needing a FAST unit for "small" fires....This concept is laughable. I have watched as millions of acres were consumed by fires started by a match. And entire buildings gutted by "small" room and contents fires.

Please remember FAST/RIT teams are there to make sure EVERYONE goes home to their wife and kids not to steal the glory at a fire.

Be safe....I hope none of us ever need the services of a FAST/RIT unit.

Matt

[Mofire24 27]

mike I'm not negative about Fasteams matter of fact i have been a member of my departments fasteam for a few years but alot of people think they are needed for every fire when in fact you dont i know there may not be an ordinary fire but there are plenty of one room fires that get knocked down with a water can You can always cancell the fasteam enroute to a call but even if you investigating a fire your usually bring in extinguishment equipment to put out a fire you come accross so your fire could be knocked out in two seconds so in alot cases you dont need a fasteam.

[RWC130 594]

Mofire24, very good point! I missed the job but from what I hear it was a small one room fire.

Maybe 2 water cans....haha.

CG206, I think starting out a FASTeam would not have been a bad idea due to the simple fact it being a "commerical structure".

However I feel the IC made a good call holding off on FAST for

this one. Again, It was a very quick knock down with a lot of manpower at the scene.

The FASTeam's we do call upon, Mohegan FD being one of them do a great job and are very quick responding. It's a good feeling having you guys there.

[WAS967 97]

Couple of questions:

Have there been any cases locally when a FAST team was actually needed on a scene? I can think of one call where they may have been needed but I don't think FAST existed locally back then (Big Fire in Ossining - Charter Circle Apartment Building - Several Firefighters were trapped on a fifth? floor with no egress and yelling out a window for a ladder to rescue them).

What kind of medical training do FAST teams recieve if any?

How lengthy is FAST training? Could it not be included in base firefighter training so as to allow a regular engine company to stand back and act FAST?

[Guest DFFD227]

As a Junior Firefighter, I have observed many fires, and heard many fires on the scanner, and about 96% of the time I hear FASTeam dispatched. I have always learned to trust my chief, and my officers, and I think if the commanding officer thought it was necessary for a FAST, he would have called it in, with no questions asked. But that is from what I have learned.

[57crew 1]

WAS967- there was a LODD in Brewster in 1997. Don't remember the whole story but i think that they had a fire in a basement and one of the members airpacks ran low on air and when they escorted him to the stairs he fell off and got lost. After units pulled pulled out they found him missing and they sent the FASTeam in. I don't know if it was called a FASTeam and i don't know the rest of the details, maybe someone elsecould fill in the blanks.

[CFD320 35]

WAS967

There were at least 2 FASTeams at the charter circle incident.

As for medical training I can only speak for my own team. We have 5 EMT's, 2 CFR's, all others are BLS trained. Generally the only medical treatment (if any) a FAST would administer would be Basic first aid (bleeding control) or (god forbid) CPR.

As for FAST training the actual FAST class is 16hr.

In croton we require: Interior Status, FAST, and FF Survival to be considered for an appointment to the team (none of members have only the minimum). An appointment to our team is not automatic, interested individuals must attend our monthly drills, until such time that the team feels comfortable with the member and is promoted to probationary status (at least 6 months).

As for training all members in FAST ops, I think that is a great Idea. In the city for instance the third due Truck automatically acts as the FAST unit. In larger departments an internal FAST unit is a great idea. Although some of the psychology behind a outside FAST is that there is less of an emotional tie to the victim. The hardest thing for a FAST to do is make the determination to go from rescue ops to recovery ops. Internal FAST units (I have read, but don’t remember where) are something like 5 times more likely to get themselves trapped searching than an outside team.

All I can say is that if I’m ever trapped, I want the best most specifically trained, and well drilled FAST unit coming in to get me.

just my .02

In god we trust, in FAST we depend.

[WAS967 97]

Interesting. I remember there were at least two EMS "quick attack" units set up for rapid evac of seriously injured individuals. I didn't rrealize FASTeams even existed back then. Thanks for the info. I guess since I was doing EMS staging at the bottom of the hill, I didn't get to see much on the fireground. :cry:

[DMA327 12]

In reguards to F.A.S.T. responses, it's my belief that anytime a fire department goes out on any type of structural call that sounds like it might turn out to be something(i.e. Possible, reported structural fire, or inside smoke condition) a F.A.S.TEAM should be requested to the scene or at least on stand-by. Reason being is that way too much time is wasted between the time of dispatch and the time of confirming a working structure fire. By the time the chief gets there and confirms it, a FAS TEAM may be 10-15 minutes out. If they are initially dispatched, there is plenty more time to assemble at the given fire house.

As far as not disptaching FAS TEAMS to one room fires, a FAST should be send to any confirmed working fire. Too many people have an attitude of thinking that its just gonna be another simple knockdown. Well we don't know what the inside of every structure looks like and if there's heavy smoke upon arrival and there are renovations being done inside, anything could happen. You may have a room and contents but maybe some type of structural damage happened at an earlier time that we do not know about which weakened it. Or what happens if it's an arson job and there's a huge puddle of gasoline in the room next door which bursts into flames. 8-[

Studies have shown more trapped firefighters die in residential homes than in commercial bldg's!

So its my opinion that anytime a department big or small goes out on a run which could turn into something, a FAS TEAM should be rollin with the first due apparatus.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I also for one am not against FAST (I like "RIT" better, as well as I am a FAST instructor), my post may seem that way but I was specifically commenting on the original post. I am critical in certain areas of the tactics as well as the mentality of it all.

First, risk vs. benefit doesn't disappear with FAST. I have seen some team leaders make bad decisions in the team leader role, but when given the same scenario as the leader of a attack, search or vent team get it right every time in regards to the scenario at hand.

Second, the Brewester incident was 585 and there were several factors that lead to the lost of our brother. One ties into my first subject risk vs. benefit, from some I know who were on scene, conditions were not favorable to extricate the downed firefighter.

Third, if we talk about time in regards to FAST response, the very nature of most of the FAST's are behind the 8 ball being they have to assemble in the first place then respond. The most critical times on the fireground where injuries often occur are the first 10 minutes, which often is around the time when FAST arrives, and even longer during daytime hours in some areas. As well as during tactical changes like going from attack to defensive. The way you solve the problem of the first 10 minutes HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FAST IT HAS TO DO WITH SOUND FIREGROUND TACTICS AND SKILLS! Read the LODD reports that are fire operation specific. Many involve the floor above, put ladders up, protect the interior stairs, when conditions aren't favorable tighten the grip on your crews!

Fourth, I disagree on calling a FAST simply because its a "commercial" bldg. Sure we have read the stories about those getting injured or killed in commercials buildings, often involving a domino effect that you wouldn't send a FAST in being you are risking losing them as well. Not to mention most of the problems we are encountering as firefighters are happening in residential construction and at "bread and butter" type fires.

Let me ask this...how many FAST teams have done training where they hear or are being told there is a mayday while still responding or immediately upon arrival? Its nice to do the stand around and wait (which shouldn't be done either, FAST should prevent an incident instead of responding to one) and then dash in like hero's. Or how many drills has anyone done where there isn't success? That you give a scenario where you have to pull out? Or where a member of FAST is in trouble? Train the way we fight!

Hmmmm, I think I see an article brewing....

[DRD 0]

I think the idea of rapid deployment scenario such as getting the mayday while responding or as you arrive makes for a great drill. I wonder how the crews would react when outside of our normal FAST SOP, staging your equipment and then putting people to work on making the scene more safe. I dont do the FAST training, so this concept may already be scheduled for a later drill, but I will be mentioning it to my training officer. Thanks.

[tbendick 27]

Ok.. I can't get this one... Listening to a Recent Fire in Westchester County, Miday on a weekday. 60 asked if they would like a FAST team, and the response was something along the lines of... We have enough people on scene...

Whats up with that??? Why not call them?? Is there harm in doing so?

[Guest CFDFASTleader]

The Croton FAST has completed several training sessions where we call the mayday as the engine approaches the scene (to get times, help organize where equipment is stored, and to help train new members). We have completed this training at the VA in Montrose and at the WCTC.

We try new senerios all the time-some work and some don't. These drills help shape our response and have changed our command/size up beliefs.

We almost always have a secondary senerio where a FAST member is lost, injured or trapped. It makes sense and helped to develop our belief in a second team concept.

We haven't yet had to pull out of a drill, but it's a good idea (thanks).

[Remember585 815]

I think alot of people are missing the boat here.

Just because you have the people on the scene, are they

A. Trained for this high-intensity mission?

B. Outfitted for the task at hand?

C. Mentally ready to rescue one of THEIR OWN?

I know the train of thought is "We'll do anything to save our own." That's no lie, because I am sure almost all of us would. But, what nobody has touched on here is the fact that aside from the physical beating one takes, the mental / emotional drain is IMMENSE. I'll give you a scenario most of you know about, but have never heard this side of it.

On December 29, 1999, a fire broke out in an apartment building in Ossining. We were dispatched as the FAST. On arrival, our team of what I believe was 8, staged at the front of the building. We had another half dozen or so experienced firefighters with us too. OFD was attacking the fire and believed they had made a knockdown. (We did too) Unfortunately, fire was hiding in the walls waiting to break out. We noticed on the upper floors of the building, that behind windows covered with security bars there were women and children looking for help. Behind them, the rooms were filling with smoke. At this point, our Chief talked to the IC about evacuatiing the residents. OFD was committed to fire suppresion, and no other Mutual Aid had arrived yet. We split up our manpower, sending in 6 members to evacuate the citizens. Once all of those still inside were accounted for outside, we were to regroup at our staging area.

By now, the fire had grown in intensity and size, jumping floors. I was on the roof with 3 others from CFD, and we were helping people down the ladder of L41 or L42. As I was helping an old woman on to the stick to another firefighter, a call for help came over I will never forget.

Two of our guys had made their way to the exp. 4 side on the 7th floor. They called a "Mayday" which our Chief answered. They were in need of air, and the conditions were worsening. I immediately grabbed a halligan, and handed an ax to one of our other guys. Myself and three other CFDFAST members ran down to the 7th floor, right to the apartment where our brothers were. They were tired, out of air, and glad to see us. As soon as we got in the room, I realized that one of the guys needed air, so I handed off my mask to him. I then radioed Command, only to be stepped on repeatedly by EMS, incoming mutual aid, and tones for all incoming departments.

I finally got through to our chief, and informed him our way in was now inaccessible due to worsening fire conditions. Airhorns started sounding for an evacuation. Sleepy Hollow / North Tarrytown TL38 positioned below. As they were doing so, the signs of flashover were getting closer to home. The room was heating up, and the smoke was thickening. We closed the door to the hallway to keep the fire out as long as we could. Two of my crew that was in the hall had to retreat, and they thought we were gone. When the bucket reached us, we loaded the 2 mayday guys first. Then my partner and I loaded in and got to the ground, just as the room flashed.

When we got to the ground, the thought of us being killed was too much for many guys. Dozens of FD and EMS people came running over to us, a handful of them hugging us, pale in the face, and some with tears in their eyes.

What's my point, you may ask? If you think you can handle saving your own, think again. The stuff going through your head will give you tunnel-vision, and you may miss key factors, like signs of collapse. You may get a hero complex, and ignore your low-air alarm. DON'T THINK FOR ONE SECOND THAT THIS IS SOMETHING A CREW OF 4 OR 6 CAN HANDLE, CALL IN THE CALVARY, AND HAVE THEM THERE BEFORE THE PROVERBIAL s*** HITS THE FAN! This incident was believed to be almost over, and 8 hours later, 5 ladders were dumping water into the building, 4 firefighters were treated for injuries, and an all-too-real lesson was learned by this young fireman. And remember this friends, It ain't over until the last rig is in the station. Keep your senses going until you are home and in bed, because attending a LODD funeral SUCKS, especially when its your own family.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

585,

That is one of the incidents I'm talking about in which not getting off the main frequency was a problem. In fact that type of incident is where today even more frequencies are need and where establishing sector officers is crucial.

[WAS967 97]

Perhaps as part of the new radio system the county is setting up, there should be a frequency set aside for maydays only? Is that feasable?

[Remember585 815]

I think in the heat of the moment, if a firefighter is panicking they won't remember to change channels.

[Guest DG795]

what could be done is an "emergency revert" system...where the radio automatically switches to a designated channel if the 10-13 button is pressed (the orange one on top of motorolas)...but i agree with remember585, in a panic this probably wouldnt be done anyway.

[hudson144 150]

I jUSt love it when I am crawling down the hallway and the battalion chief has all companys "go to ch-2". yea right-stop what you are doing,try to locate your portable that is inder your turnout coat(covered with your air pack straps)take off your glove to locate that small button in the dark,OK CHIEF, I'M ON CH-2 WHAT OTHER TRICKS WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO DO!?????????????

[Guest alsfirefighter]

As far as I go, if I call a mayday and don't get answered, I'll hit every channel in my radio till I get answered...46.36, Putnam, VAC's.

WAS, the answer to the problem isn't adding a channel, they would find a reason to screw that up too. The solution is getting people onto firegrounds and listening before they speak, thinking before they speak, and saying only what needs to be said. Kinda like Mon. night, this is what I have and step it up!

[Guest CFDFASTleader]

Have you guys ever listened to another incident? I know it's the same all over.

Too many people think they are important if they make communications on the radio. The answer is to take the radios away. The officer needs to communitcate on the radio.

Everyone else can have one with the rule that it is only for communicating an emergency involving your team. Stay off the radios.

[tbendick 27]

As far as an Emergency Channel FDNY set up system for this.

Everyone is on Channel 1. Dedicated Fireground no talking to the Dispatcher.

If there is a Mayday, the member can hit the orange button which will send an alert to all the radios on scene to say "SHUT UP". The member sending the Mayday's radio will act like a pass alarm sending out tones alerting people in the area of the trouble. All the other radios will BEEP.

If needed Channel 16 is a 5 watt dedicated channel for Emergency purposes. If the member is talking and it's going to be a prolonged rescue they have the option to switch to this channel. The IC and the member only..

As far as Westchester County. You need to use dedicated Firegrounds!!!!! Move to the UHF System and Don't use a PacRt linked to 46.26 8-[ I know of one Department who has the UHF radios but links 46.26 to them.. Listening to an audio tape of Fire from them. In between Charge the line and I am venting the roof, you have all sorts of tones from all of the county... What a waste of the UHF design. If the IC wants to talk to 60 from the UHF do it on another channel...

[mikeinet 37]

tbendick: When the emergency button is hit on the Motorola's, how does FDNY have them setup? I know I have been place where if you hit the button, it sends an emergency signal to the dispatch console with the radio # stating an emergency - - but I'm sure that wouldn't be setup in FDNY because of the pure number of FF's operating... is there anything like this setup though?

[RWC130 594]

The Motorola HT1000 and other models (if programmed correctly) do have a

"Emergency Revert" to your Priority Channel if you hit the Orange Emergency Button.

I hit it once by accident when I was on another channel.

Depending on how your radio is set up and programmed it does work....IT WORKS VERY WELL!!

Hopefully we will never have to use it.

BE SAFE BROTHERS!