Santa Runs- OK To Ride On Top & Tailboards?

[irishfire2491 24]

  Fire apparatus damaged during santas run through the town. 2 injured after falling off the hose bed. and by the way-- the apparatus cost apx 900k sorry it will be out of service for a few months while its being repared.--

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Santa Runs are for Public Relation you cant say that every santa run each year someone is going to die. Santa could be in the Cab with his seatbelt and go to get out slip on ice and recieve a skull Fx. then if he was on the back or mid pump is it right, is it wrong. and when a truck gets into an accident and is out of service that is what Muilt Aid is for. You could have an accident when you take the truck out to get fuel. Things happen for a reason. Lessons will be learn. Such as Caution Firefighting may cause serious Injurys and or Death but hey well all still do Firefighting Right or Wrong???? We know the Risk but we Still do them!!!!!

Santa Is GONE TILL NEXT YEAR!!!!

[firecapt32 282]

OK lets change santa to the easter bunny--- does that make it any better. the idea isnt that santa or the easter bunny what ever- is rideing the apparatus. It just might be useing the aparatus for something its not designed to be doing. we can discuess all day and all night. You all callyour selves "professional"but at various times you sure dont act like it--sorry- but bringing santa around and calling it public relations just dosent cut it. Thats not professionalism. I dont mean to offend any one--but you cant preach firefighter safety one one hand and let santa ride the back step with the other.

We strive for safety for our firefighters again this year 100 deaths have occured. We would give any thing to being those firefighters back to their families. Be "professional" act like professional and i dont mean career I mean doing the job in a professional manner.

[ajsbear 11]

There is a reason that rinding the "back step" is banned. I remember riding the backstep for years in Mt Vernon. We used to stand in the jump seats, sit on the engine compartment etc. There was a time they used to ride the side step on laddrs. No more. The tiller seat had no protection now the few tillers have a compartment for the tillerman. It's just way too dangerous let alone against everything in OSHA and NFPA. Ride the hose bed? This was never designed as a riding spot. No hand holds, seat etc. If someone gets hurt no insurance period. You are not covered for stupid acts and that is just what it is. Santa can ride in the compartment and have the windo open and wave.

[Remember585 815]

This is an excerpt of NYS V&T law:

I edited it to only include the pertinent info. Maybe someone in Law Enforcement (Chris192 comes to mind) can expand on this.

Section 1233. Clinging to vehicles.

2. No person shall ride on or attach himself to the outside of any vehicle being operated upon a roadway.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to:

(i) vehicles in an emergency operation as defined in section one hundred fourteen-b of this chapter; and

(v) vehicles participating in a parade pursuant to a municipal permit.

3. No vehicle operator shall knowingly permit any person to attach any device or himself to such operator's vehicle in violation of subdivision one or subdivision two of this section.

I also believe NFPA 1500, 1901 and 1002 all have sections discrediting the practice of riding on the outside of fire apparatus. I am trying to find the specific sections and will post as soon as I can unless someone beats me to it.

Lastly, all Departments should have a written policy stating that the act of riding outside in the hosebed, on the tail or side steps during emergencies is forbidden. Why would we not do it for parades and the like? Several times over the years we were told by our Chiefs to use our open cab / split hosebed apparatus to provide rides for Santa, High School teams and our FIRE PREVENTION and SAFETY DAY. As a Captain I wouldn't drive the rig myself or participate and if a driver chose not to participate I wouldn't question them. The crappy thing of it was the fact that the Chiefs were authorizing it so those that helped out did it assuming they were "covered" because the Chiefs were giving it the go ahead, usually because the event was at the request of the Village (our AHJ). Luckily no incidents ever occurred and that rig is no longer with us. This year we delivered Santa in the new, enclosed cab rig sitting in the front seat.

If State laws and NFPA standards do not allow it - who are we to ignore them?

*For the record, I did drive Santa several times in the past and drove the rig during Fire Prevention Day, and rode in the hosebed during parades, but that was before I took FSI I and Officer Training Courses and got the wake up call about setting an example and following NFPA. Before then it never really clicked. I am just glad no incidents ever occurred because of my ignorance.*

Hey, nobody's perfect, but being safe and following rules isn't that hard.

[EJS1810 7]

One picture is worth a thousand words.

[LCFD968 10]

One picture is worth a thousand words.

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NICE!!!! LOL!!!!!

[irishfire2491 24]

That is a little overboard I have to agree that this picture explains it all that there is dangrous

[helicopper 1,050]

Well, since I was invited to comment....

The section of the VTL that Remember posted states it pretty clearly - riding on a vehicle is illegal. That it also violates NFPA standards is pretty clear too.

I look at it this way - IF something does happen and there is a lawsuit or charges, the FD and vehicle operator are going to be hard-pressed to defend the decision to ignore the law, NFPA standards (and others that surely exist) concerning this subject. Since the law is being violated I don't think the department or its officers can enjoy the defense of public officer laws or other indemnification. This creates a pretty ugly situation and probably will forever negate whatever positive PR was enjoyed by hauling jolly ol' Saint Nick around.

Now, would it be OK if they put a seatbelt on the sleigh in the picture??? (just kidding!)

Anybody want to weigh in on how tall fire apparatus is and how high the sleigh puts Santa's head? I'd be more concerned with low branches and wires - some mental image for the kids waving to Santa as he gets decapitated by a low slung wire across the road.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Irishfire you answered the 2nd time the way I expected you would. But to clarify on your first post, there is a huge difference from completely avoiding someone having the potential to go flying off an apparatus or being struck by something, then stepping off the rig and slipping and having a skull fracture. Which by the way even that can be avoided somewhat by getting off the apparatus appropriately and also not doing something like that during crappy weather. Firefighting is a risk because there are variables, we can rid the variable by not allowing persons to ride in exposed postions. Try buying a fire apparatus with an open cab anymore. So you argument based on that is or at least was pretty weak.

If not not the Easter Bunny....how about the tooth fairy.

[robert benz 344]

Santa Runs are for Public Relation you cant say that every santa run each year someone is going to die. Santa could be in the Cab with his seatbelt and go to get out slip on ice and recieve a skull Fx. then if he was on the back or mid pump is it right, is it wrong. and when a truck gets into an accident and is out of service that is what Muilt Aid is for. You could have an accident when you take the truck out to get fuel. Things happen for a reason. Lessons will be learn. Such as Caution Firefighting may cause serious Injurys and or Death but hey well all still do Firefighting Right or Wrong???? We know the Risk but we Still do them!!!!!

Santa Is GONE TILL NEXT YEAR!!!!

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I am going to be as diplomatic as i can, there are vast differences between getting in an accident going on a Santa Run and and going to get fuel. AND THAT IS NOT WHAT MUTUAL AID IS FOR. i hope you read how firefighters are injured and killed each year. MANY OF THE INJURIES AND DEATHS WERE VERY PREVENTABLE, it isnt just "things happen for a reason". Bad judgement and carelessness are not just a reason.

and yes firefighting is dangerous, but lets not make it any worse than it has to be.

I have been a firefighter for a long time, I see in your bio you are 18 yrs old. Please talk to some of your senior firefighters and be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

I hope you have a long and healthy career, thats why this years safety theme was EVERYONE GOES HOME

[hudson144 150]

chris- as a police officer you hit the nail on the head- in laymans terms-NO,NO,NO. Riding on the tailboard,hosebed etc is illegal, for those of you out there say that "NFPA is only a recomondation" then I would like to know where the info was gatthered a few years ago when the chief of a NYS fire dept was put in jail because of the live burn where the firefighter was killed when he got trapped on the #2 floor of the private dwelling that the dept was using for the live fire training. The info used in court was from NFPA, yes they are guidelines, yes some of them might be almost impossible to follow but in many cases such as where to ride on a fire apparatus it is pretty cut n dry! be safe!

[Monty 35]

Every department should have a policy regarding personnel riding on apparatus. This includes how to load LDH while an apparatus is in motion which is one of the few times NFPA allows members to be on an apparatus in a non-seated postion.  If anyone else knows what the other allowance is you get a bonus. 

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NFPA (Nothing Free Published Anytime?) allows you to preview their publications online if you don't have the documents.

Every so often it's interesting to have a look through. Thanks to ALS for giving me the incentive again to kill some time at work and do something useful . Anyway, here's the section from 1500 .... (6.3.5). 6.3.1 and 6.3.2 are also interesting. I guess it's almost for another thread - but hey, how about Phoenix and their SCBA mounting policy?

[attachmentid=1829]

Edited December 29, 2006 by Monty

[LCFD968 10]

not sure how to word this so hopefully this comes out right.....

I understand NFPA is a standard and we are to live by them but how can they say " you can't ride anywhere on the rig unless seatbelted" in one sentence and then in two other sentences say " while doing XYZ and the rig is in motion its ok just as long as you have SOP on all safety aspects"?????

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Simple....because a specific section Chapter 6 of NFPA 1500 clearly states that it can, however the department must have a policy in effect of how this is going to occur. The 2 operations that are allowed to have person on the apparatus while the vehicle is in motion is:

1. Repacking of LDH as stated in Section 6.3.4 that monty graciously posted.

2. Training of tiller operators where there is only 1 seat however someone must be there with them to assist as they learn. As stated in 6.3.5.

There is a huge difference between crawling along repacking LDH, which any policy I am involved with prohibits doing so in reverse and riding around town. Policies should state where they can do this, emergency procedures, traffic control, wearing a helmet and so on, etc.

The tiller operator training should be extremely slow in safe areas, preferabley parking lots and/or commercial complexes where there are roads like streets but are basically traffic free during non operating hours to ensure safety.

How can NFPA say this?

Because it is the nationally accepted standard of fire service operations, health, safety and construction that is comprised of fire service officials/personnel, manufacturing representatives and so on.

You can't beat them up for being what can be argued as being overly restrictive and anal in one regard and then allowing for common sense in another. There are numerous documented cases of firefighters falling off hose beds and tail boards riding around...but very few that were packing hose. Let that happen and they will change it in a heartbeat.

[Guest]

I think I kind of agree with LCFD968.

Numerous departments that I know have done Santa runs, with Santa on top, esecially in the past. Not once have I seen or heard of someone getting hurt during this practice. People get hurt doing all kinds of things non-firematically. I know liability is an issue, but just have the member sign a waiver, and that's not an issue anymore.

You can get hurt tripping down the stairs in the firehouse, or break your ankle getting out of the rig. Firefighting is dangerous, what are we supposed to do live in a bubble?

Sometimes, I think "Safety" preaching and practices is going way overboard.

[firecapt32 282]

to answer real quickly pots thoses thing you describe are part and parcel to the job of a firefighter.riding of top of or on the back step even santa can fall off and that my friend is stupid.We live in a dangerous world--we have chosen to be firefighters--at least we can be the safest that we can be.

have a safe -happy new year

I am headed to a wedding on Long Island!!!!!

[Jason762 2]

I think I kind of agree with LCFD968.

Numerous departments that I know have done Santa runs, with Santa on top, esecially in the past.  Not once have I seen or heard of someone getting hurt during this practice. People get hurt doing all kinds of things non-firematically. I know liability is an issue, but just have the member sign a waiver, and that's not an issue anymore.

You can get hurt tripping down the stairs in the firehouse, or break your ankle getting out of the rig. Firefighting is dangerous, what are we supposed to do live in a bubble?

Sometimes, I think "Safety" preaching and practices is going way overboard.

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I'm not sure why the same thing seems to be stated over and over in this thread, yet so many of the younger and less-experienced members just don't seem to get it. It's not about "living in a bubble" its about not taking unnecessary risks. Yes firefighting is dangerous and yes you can get hurt tripping down the stairs, but why in the world would you want to take unnecessary risks such as riding around on the top of a hosebed for ANY reason be it Santa, post-parade celebration or whatever...

If you review this thread it seems that the career guys and the more senior/experienced volunteers are the ones preaching safety. Why would that be? Maybe because they have been around and seen enough injuries to know that taking stupid risks is just that...studid!!! We certainly wouldn't stand for riding around on the hosebed on my job, and neither should any other department.

As for the statement of "Sometimes, I think "Safety" preaching and practices is going way overboard.", I don't know where to begin with saying how ignorant that statement is. Get some time in the fire service and you will see how valuable all that "preaching and practicing is". I'm not quite sure how you could make such a statement either, being that you say you are a "Probationary/New Firefighter". Maybe if you reach your goal in "Pursuing a fire career", you'll meet some officers and senior guys who can tell you a horror story or two about what happens when we do things unsafely. Attitudes like some in this thread are one of the reasons why we still kill 100+ every year. Keep telling yourselves, "that won't happen to me" and hopefully it won't.

[RESCUERABBITS 0]

You need to decide very simply if we are going to be PROFESSIONAL FIREFIGHTERS or not. We have heard non-stop comments about being PROFESSIONAL, act like it. Is being a PROFESSIONAL FIREFIGHTER only a matter convience when we pick and chose our times to be a PROFESSIONAL....................

IF you want to call yourselfs PROFESSIONAL FIREFIGHTERS act like it.

Fire App. vs Fire App. @ Parade (The Secret List)

December 17, 2006

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Hey...

2 fire apparatus collided during a parade in Pennsylvania that was held for a H.S. football team, injuring 3 firefighters. The apparatus, driving early Saturday, was celebrating the final game of the year for Pottsville. The parade followed a big game, which Pottsville lost, 28-23, to General McLane H.S. in Edinboro. Around 12:20 a.m., traffic stopped and the Mount Carbon Fire Company apparatus rear-ended another apparatus from the East End Fire Company. 3 firefighters were injured, but all were treated and released. Both apparatus were damaged, but Mount Carbon Mayor Jeff Dunkel said he was just grateful no one was seriously injured. "It could have been a lot worse, especially since (one of the firefighters) wasn't wearing a seat belt," Dunkel said.

Great observation, Mayor. And, if a FF was killed, it would have been an, err, uhh, humm, ...an "Official Line of Duty" Death.

Take care-be careful....much of this stuff is so easy to avoid.

Not that there is much that needs to be added here, I think it again proves my point, but Billy G's last sentence says the most "...much of this stuff is so easy to avoid."  Lucky this wasn't a santa run?  Or they didn't have people packed on because its a parade.

So why not just get out of the cab then?

Lew you are right.  When we deal with things like tactics, hose lays, stretches.  Not in this case it is clearly defined that it is not allowed in any form.

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[hudson144 150]

ok- i am approaching 47 yrs old, i have alomost 30 yrs in the fire service, probably a little older n wiser than some on this thread today, with walter being an exception, when we were kids we rode around in the back of pickup trucks doing 60 mph. we had no infant car seats, seat belts were those shining buckles that you burnt your a** on in the summer when you sat on them, a DWI was unheard of, kids rode wherever they wanted in the car. If you were 6 yrs old you could ride shotgun not having to worry about an airbag deployment, if you had a convertable(RAGTOP) you sat on the rear dash board like you were in the ticker tape parade (1969) GOTTA BELIEVE-NY METS. if you wore a bicycle helmet your buddies called you a geek. IF you didn't ride in the trunk of a car to get into the drive Inn movie you were a chicken, dad would let you drive sitting on his lap-the list goes on--- do we still do this stupid stuff? hell no,why? because it is a proven fact that it is not safe,how did we learn that it was unsafe? fatalities!!! how did the fire service change over the years? COMMON SENSE and fatalities!!! enough on this one. be safe...

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Great post hudson and jason.

Some of you could come up with every possible scenario of someone getting hurt and you can't see past your noses. Everything mentioned is something that is an acceptable injury associated with firefighting related duties. Sitting in a hose bed or anywhere else on a fire apparatus, christmas or not...isn't. Get over it. Overboard on safety? LOL. Please. Check yourself at the door. Or better yet if you ever believe that going too overboard on your personal safety is too much...go join the Elks Club. Then again you could sprain your ankle there too or maybe even chip your tooth on a tumbler.

Everyone is sooo worried about throwing candy canes. Anyone worried about other ethnicities and religions? You throwing dradles as well? Or korans. Probably not. Let's see how many posts the "how do we reduce LODDs" get compared to this one. Probably not even as close. It requires thought and input, not an argument about what many know you can't do. For some of you, keep throwing away little things about your safety, like I said before. There are plenty of us whom will protect you despite yourself. That is what being a leader in the fire service is all about.

[AFS1970 504]

Since this seans to be all about safety, let me play devils advocate for a bit. Yes we could probably figure out a safety system for Santa. They slay in that picture looks to be tied down to the rig. We could likely make some type of harness for the rider, and in all probability we could keep Santa alive for at least one more Christmas. However, those sections from NYS Vehicle law seem to be the deciding factor. regardless of how many injuries have occured in the past or even hom many may occur in the future, it appears that such riding is illegal in New York.

I have been a part of Fire Engine rides for the public, and I know the lengthy steps that we had to go through with our insurance company to be permitted to do such a ride. The big factor there was safety of all pasengers, both public and firefighters. I also know how popular this kind of event can be.

I for one think it would be great if we could find a way to keep these traditions going, while being compliant with all the applicable laws, standards and regulations. I will be the first to say that I don't know the solution, but finding one would be better than arguing over if there is even a problem to solve or not.

[firecapt32 282]

I'm back form the wedding--glad to see the thread is still going-- no I didnt see the new years baby on a fire engine.

In the fire service we are reactionaries-- we learn after the fact. If you dont believe me just look at our past.

We ave 100 firefighter deaths every year - way- way- to many. We will continue to lose firefighters--Thats just the nature of the business we have chosen to be in, lets not do anything as careless as riding on top, side or with out seatbelts.

No we havent had a santa fatility YET .

Heres somthing no one has picked up on the holiday lights were allover the apparatus even on the front and over the pump panel.

Edited January 1, 2007 by firecapt32

[Guest nickcabral]

I know this thread is dead but I cam across this and I just wonder what in the heck is these people are thinking!!!! This is even worse than Santa riding tailboard.

[firecapt32 282]

save that video --- can you just imiagine what would happen to santa if that truck had to stop short.

[Remember585 815]

I hate to say it and give Santa a complex, but the real Santa would probably excedd that rig's tip load....

[hudson144 150]

come on guys,they were just interviewing for "JACKASS" III !

[Guest partyrock]

Not for nothing, but I'm pretty sure Santa is starpped in up there. I'm pretty sure its not a seatbelt, but it is something. As for the two brain trusts standing there, I can't defend them.

[firecapt32 282]

there no defending that no way shape or form!!! no way no how