Fire Service need one standard in....

[bigfitz2004 19]

On this board I have seen topic such as Sending Firefighters Mutual Aid- Requirements and is Firefighter I Enough? I see one problem in the county there is no unity on what classify an interior Firefighter. If one department says that you only need Firefighter I to be an interior firefighter and different Department requires both FF1 and Survival. This creates a problem. I believe that we can fix this by having Westchester County Government make a proposal to make one standard in Westchester County. By have one standard in the Westchester we can we can remove Department Requirement like what you need to be classify as an interior firefighter & requirement it sent firefighter on mutual aid. By have on standard an IC at the Fireground does not have to worry about the skills is firefighter have. I want like to hear like to hear what Volunteer and Career Firefighters think about this.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

The fire service doesn't need a standard, we need common sense. If you are being called mutual aid to the scene, you should have a full crew with 2+ interior firefighters AND an operator. If you are going to water source, that may be negotiable. Also depends on what type of apparatus you're being called for. Aerials and rescues require more crew than an engine, tanker, or brush.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

The County is offering most of the Fire Fighter I courses with FF survival.....maybe it is a change after all FF survival takes an extra 2 classes

http://www.westchestergov.com/emergserv/DEStrain/default.htm

Edited January 27, 2007 by bvfdjc316

[Arrowxt 8]

What about the towns and districts that border other counties or other states. It comes down to common sense. Most departments will not allow members who cannot fight fire in there district to go on a run or to a fire in a mutual aid district. I know what the mutual aid departments are going to send my district when we call for them and they know what we will send if called for. I have confidence in that.

Arrow

[mfc2257 464]

The fire service doesn't need a standard, we need common sense.  If you are being called mutual aid to the scene, you should have a full crew with 2+ interior firefighters AND an operator.  If you are going to water source, that may be negotiable.  Also depends on what type of apparatus you're being called for.  Aerials and rescues require more crew than an engine, tanker, or brush.

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Umm not sure which rig you were hinting towards with the 2+ interior AND an operator, BUT if you can't send a four (preferably five) man engine or a four (preferably six) man truck, then you might not be meeting the expectations of who is calling you.

As a former officer, if I called for additional apparatus and an engine or truck marks up on the air, I expect that there will be at least four ff's filling the assignment. If not, the correct thing to do is to include your staffing number when you sign on the air so that the dispatcher or the OIC have the opportunity to go next due.

"Engine 248 is responding with "three"..... "60 Control to Ossining be advised, you've got Millwood Engine 248 enroute with a light crew of three, I'll be alerting next due unless you direct otherwise"

I use my hometown department as an example, but it doesn't matter who it is, sometimes you respond with a full boat, other times not.... It is your responsibility to let the requesting department know if you are coming fully staffed or light. If they replace you on the box then you'll get a chance another time.

Just another example of how I think ego's have to be set aside.

[FFD941 20]

The fire service doesn't need a standard, we need common sense.  If you are being called mutual aid to the scene, you should have a full crew with 2+ interior firefighters AND an operator.  If you are going to water source, that may be negotiable.  Also depends on what type of apparatus you're being called for.  Aerials and rescues require more crew than an engine, tanker, or brush.

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This is the problem with this world today. Commom Sense Isn't So Common anymore. So, we need to spell out everything.

You have a great concept Sage, however, "What is an Interior Qualified Firefighter?"

[HFD23 37]

Umm not sure which rig you were hinting towards with the 2+ interior AND an operator, BUT if you can't send a four (preferably five) man engine or a four (preferably six) man truck, then you might not be meeting the expectations of who is calling you.

As a former officer, if I called for additional apparatus and an engine or truck marks up on the air, I expect that there will be at least four ff's filling the assignment.  If not, the correct thing to do is to include your staffing number when you sign on the air so that the dispatcher or the OIC have the opportunity to go next due.

"Engine 248 is responding with "three".....  "60 Control to Ossining be advised, you've got Millwood Engine 248 enroute with a light crew of three, I'll be alerting next due unless you direct otherwise"

I use my hometown department as an example, but it doesn't matter who it is, sometimes you respond with a full boat, other times not.... It is your responsibility to let the requesting department know if you are coming fully staffed or light.  If they replace you on the box then you'll get a chance another time.

Just another example of how I think ego's have to be set aside.

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good point, sounds like Prince George County MD..... they seam very far ahead when it comes to something so basic i usually hear Elmsford Fd do this but thats about it... it would be nice to see Westchester County have all rigs report their staffing when responding, this is so a understaffed unit can be supplimented by adding an additional engine or truck, due to the under staffed company just as they do down south... also only interior FF's should count as staffing every one else is just support...

[HFD23 37]

sorry please delete

Edited January 27, 2007 by HFD23

[robert benz 344]

The County is offering most of the Fire Fighter I courses with FF survival.....maybe it is a change after all FF survival takes an extra 2 classes

http://www.westchestergov.com/emergserv/DEStrain/default.htm

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firefighter survival is not part of ff-1 it is up to the instructor (if he is cert to teach the course) to ADD the extra 9 hours (3 classes) onto the FF-1 course. I think it s a great idea and should be part of FF-1 not an add on, maybe in the near future it will be.

I hope i am just reading into it wrong, but when you say you HAVE to take an extra 2 classes to get survival, you should be HAVING or better yet WANTING to take more classes before you step foot inside a structure fire.

ff-1 is the minimum req. to be considered by your dept to go interior. When I go to see a doctor I hope he has more than just the min qualifications.

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

While I dont' think there should really be a set minimum standard. I think it should be stressed that if your requesting a mutual aid piece of apparatus. It is with the understanding that it will be staffed with INTERIOR FF's. A good portion of the time your requesting the additional because you have enough "support" personnel on the scene.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

firefighter survival is not part of ff-1 it is up to the instructor (if he is cert to teach the course) to ADD  the extra 9 hours (3 classes) onto the FF-1 course. I think it s a great idea and should be part of FF-1  not an add on, maybe in the near future it will be.

I hope i am just reading into it wrong, but when you say you HAVE to take an extra 2 classes to get survival, you should be HAVING or better yet WANTING  to take more classes before you step foot inside a structure fire. 

ff-1 is the minimum req. to be considered by your dept to go interior. When I go to see a doctor I hope he has more than just the min qualifications.

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Im sorry if what I said confused you.....

What I was trying to say is that it looks like that DES is now reaching a point where they have a proclivity for FF1 w/ FF Survival

This is based on the fact that most of the FF1 courses are being offered in tandem with FF survival

I think this is a great idea because if you look at the training dates for FF survival it is an extra two days that with out a doubt save your life.

I Know when I take FF1 i want to take FF survival with it because it has a high potential of being capable of saving my life and what is an extra two classes really when ones life in on the line

[FFD941 20]

I may be wrong but, I don't believe that the original question was answered?

What is an Interior Qualified Firefighter?

In order to become an Interior Firefighter in Fairview (Dutchess) you must be competent and proficient in the material addressed in FF1, Firefighter Survival, and F.A.S.T. (Line Officers must attend even further training)

[firecapt32 282]

I dont believe the County can establish miniums for Departments the respond on mutual aid. I believe the County is only the vehicle in which a department recieves or gives mutual aid.

Having said that ther is nothing wrong with the Department requestion mutual aid to fully expect and ASK what the qualifications of the respopnders are.

As a Incident Commander of a operation you might be sending your mutual aid companies into the fire as back up or a search team, or as a RIT/FAST you as the IC are RESPONSIBLE for them and knowing who they are and what training they have is up to you.

Maybe the better way is for the Battalions in the County to make suggestions to the Departments and for the Battalions to train togeather more.

[Guest]

The fire service doesn't need a standard, we need common sense.  If you are being called mutual aid to the scene, you should have a full crew with 2+ interior firefighters AND an operator.  If you are going to water source, that may be negotiable.  Also depends on what type of apparatus you're being called for.  Aerials and rescues require more crew than an engine, tanker, or brush.

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Everyone needs standards...thats what the NFPA is all about, the DOT/a states DOH, and NPA are all for. Without standards the world would be a far different: a gallon of gas in port chester may not be a gallon of gas in yonkers, a dollar in NY may not be a dollar in CT, a HS diploma in Westchester may not fulfill a HS diploma in Putnam, a FF in NY may exceed what it means to be a FF in Cali, an EMT in NY may not fuilfill the requirements for an EMT in South Dakota, and a PO in NYC may not meet the requirements for a PO in Westchester. Without standards we would be absolutely nowhere! Just look back to the Articles of Confederation, you'll find that it failed because of its lack of standardization.

What is an interior firefighter?

The point was made that an "interior firefighter" varies from department to department. While i'm not a FF, having worked alongside a number of departments i can tell you this is a very valid and troubling truth. It cant be very reassuring to those in the fire house/apartment/building that you have someone that may not have the same training as you. What if - god forbid - something went wrong? How could you count on them?

Speaking from an EMS standpoint, its very reassuring to know that when i call for additional resources (IE: additional Medic unit or BLS unit) i know, more or less, what i'm getting. Personalities aside, i know that i will get a Paramedic trained according to the NYS DOH standard and well versed in Hudson Valley protocol - i also know that if i request or have additional EMTs o/s with me, we all have the same basic level of knowledge and if im in charge i can direct a partner to do something and it will get done according to that standard (im speaking in a perfect world, naturally we face varying levels of competency and experience in the field - but anyone with a card has met -i hope - a minimum standard).

Sage, not to bust balls, i would caution making blanket statements and over generalizations given your limited experience. We all have started from a clean slate, knowing nothing about our respective positions. As a younger member in your department its best to ask intuitive questions, sit quietly and listen to the more experienced, research, read, and practice. I think you'll find your life will be a lot easier this way.

Edited January 27, 2007 by 66Alpha1

[Guest alsfirefighter]

While I dont' think there should really be a set minimum standard.

Well there is a standard although very minimum. The OSHA fire brigade standard applies as well as NFPA 1001. The reason why I believe there should be a better minimum standard, is it gives a set goal that needs to be met and then you can bolster the standard and require more, but then you cannot dummy it down.

I think it should be stressed that if your requesting a mutual aid piece of apparatus.

Another reason why clear concise communication is so important. If you are requesting mutual aid due to needing a specific piece of apparatus for your operation say it. If you are requesting mutual aid for additional personnel make that clear also. "Main Street Command to dispatch....requesting 1 engine from xyz with additional personnel." For me when I mean personnel I mean certified trained firefighters at a state level. I do not believe IMO that uncertified personnel and exterior personnel should be allow outside their AHJ.

Another way to solve this issue is to have written mutual aid agreements as they are suppose to be. This will get rid of any questions and make it clear as to what you are expecting when you request assistance.

[JustSomeGuy 0]

Do you think it would be possible to have a westchester county fire department? Isn't this done in LA County? I have alwyas suggested this, but as I have stated before I don't think that career chiefs are ready to relinquish their power.

[weaselff 6]

Do you think it would be possible to have a westchester county fire department?  Isn't this done in LA County?  I have alwyas suggested this, but as I have stated before I don't think that career chiefs are ready to relinquish their power.

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Ideally a Westchester County FD would be the best option fiscally, and operationally, with paid, combo and volunteer companies depending on the population density and call volume of a given companies first due area. Unfortunately it will never come about, because the IAFF would have a caniption and the chances of every chief, commisoner and mayor giving up their little kingdom is slim to none. Also I think it may be illegal under NYS law since we have so many different municipality structures: villages, village-towns, townships and cities. In California they only have cities, if you don't live in a city you live in the unincorporated section of a county, but your mailing adress will be whatever city is closest to you. The only example of any kind of countywide department I can think of in NYS is the Nassau and Suffolk county police. They are the primary agency across many village and township lines on LI. I'm not sure how they have this authority, maybe there was an amendment passed in the state assembly? Actually now that I think about it, is this also the way Putnam County sheriffs work?

[ex-commish 490]

Do you think it would be possible to have a westchester county fire department?  Isn't this done in LA County?  I have alwyas suggested this, but as I have stated before I don't think that career chiefs are ready to relinquish their power.

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I dont think in our life time you will see it and it is not just as you say the career chiefs are against it. I have been and am still in favor of a town wide department in my town but that will never happen because you would have to convince 8 fire districts which equals 24 fire commissioners to relinquish and be willing to go with this and that is not going to happen, especially in the volunteer sector....let alone on a county level with 58 fire departments rangin from cities, towns, villages, and districts.

IMHO however, I do believe we need some sort of consilidation.

[JustSomeGuy 0]

Westchester county police department, is a county wide agency, it would be nice to have the same thing firematically. I know we will never see it in our lifetime, but it would be taking a step in the right direction, and progressing with the times. I understand why it will not happen soon. I know that the higher authorities "commissioners," chiefs, etc... are not willing to do this, but what if they were forced to?

After all the public are our bosses, wether career or volunteer. What if the government stepped in ordered a county wide merger of emergency services. This tech team, County Haz-Mat, county squads in lower westchester. This merger of resources is a step in the right direction.

As far as union wise: The union might be scared off at first but WHAT if and this is a big what if the union steps in and demands that wages be comparible to the current highest salaried department? Now the depts will be funded not only locally but as well as by the county and possibly the state.

The above was just some thoughts to discuss, I am not imposing this on anyone. Also this leads me to something I wanted to write for awhile now so here goes:

Believe me I am more then happy doing my job in my dept. I get a pay check to do something I love, I do not voice my opinions. I come in, I shut up I do as ordered and do it to the best of my ability. This is why I prefer to remain anonymous. I do not want my personal views and opinions to be known in my dept. Its not my place to make those decsions. If my officer tells me something to do something I do not think is the 100% right way to do something, as long as it is safe I do as ordered, and I think that this is a problem with the newer (my) generation of fire fighting. I was talking to a career cheif now ret. and he even told me that there is nothing funnier then a 5yr veteran thinking they know everything, and know the best way to do it, and gripe about how the dept is being run. Just shut up and do your job. This ret. chief freely admits he doesn't know everything, but he does his job to the best of his ability.