Sending All Three Chiefs On Mutual Aid?

[HFD23 37]

My question based on a recent hospital fire seeing that 2 m/a Departments sent all 3 chiefs officers to this incident. Is do any departments have any rules on all 3 chief officers responding out of their district? I mean granted any one could just clear and respond from a further distance, but why would you want or allow all 3 Chiefs out of your district thus leaving less man power (due to a rig and man power with the rig and the chiefs out of town) and no Chief officer at home to protect your own 1st due should something arise.

This is in no way to insult any dept after all each has reasoning behind what is done. It is merely to examine an incident that may happen any where....

[Fex404 0]

I know in my department only one chief responds to mutual aid calls, and the way they figure out which one is by zones. Each chief is designated to certain mutual aid dept's. So whenever a dept calls us we know which chief will be responding. If that chief is out of town or unavailable to respond another chief will obviously take it in. In a situation like that - it is all about communication -- Hope this makes sense.........

[biglew 3]

You make a valid point HFD23. It looks like a classic case of two many chiefs and not enough Indians. 9 Chiefs and a County battalion chief for a job with 3 engines and 1 truck; am I missing something here.

My personal belief is that its Ok for the town with the job to have all its chiefs at the scene, I even feel that any mutual aid companies should have a chief from their dept respond if that is their depts protocol.

There is only one I/C, so unless its a job with exposure problems, or other unique circumstances, I believe 10 chiefs on this call was a little overboard. ONLY MY OPINION!!

I don't believe that out of town chiefs actually get dispatched to a job, they respond on their own if their dept is called in on Mutual Aid. Am I correct with this assumption?

The fact that this was a hospital call with potential for evacuation and the like, make the # of chiefs at the scene more palatable.

[x635 4,066]

I agree, and I've seen it as a big problem for years.

It's not only mutual aid calls, but I've seen all of a departments officers commit to an incident, such as a car fire, on a limited access interstate.

This comes back to covering your district. If an incident comes in, you can't just forget about everything else. The reason that chiefs are there are for supervision- I would guess some want to be in the action at every call.

As a chief, you primary role will ALWAYS be your jurisdiction. If you send a mutual aid company out, and this is only my opinion, then a Lieutenant, Captain, or Chief should suffice as supervison.

By having so many chiefs and officers in some departments, we are hurting ourselves by not letting any officer get experience as one. Too many hands in the pot.

Of course, there will be situations that will be the exception, but it's riduclous to commit an entire departments officers to an incident that's not even theirs, even if they can "respond back if needed".

[TimesUp 148]

I see this all to often. A Chief or some other ranked Supervisor will show up and their dept. is'nt even there on mutual aid. Sometimes it turns into a real buff event. It also leads to some confusion when they decide to get themselves involved in decision making.

All the white helmets all over the place makes the scene very confusing. I think they might forget about their obligation to their own dept. and the citizens of their town, city, or district. Or maybe they can't control themselves?

[x635 4,066]

It turns into a real buff event.

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Exactly. Nailed it right on the head there.

[Guest]

Buff fest is right. Why do you need 1 chief and 3 assistant chiefs for a M/A engine or tanker? Send 1 assistant chief to make contact and organize/direct his men per the IC. Everyone wants in on the action and simply doesn't use forethought. After a while all those white helmets amounts to just a bunch of guys watching fire burn...i mean besides the Chief of the dept. where the incident is, county batallion chief, what else is there to do leadership wise (except, of course, for 1 m/a chief/lt/captain to supervise his men) to do?

[Guest WCDES636]

Not to mention when you ask for 3 different things from 3 different departments, you have 9 chiefs on the radio calling enroute, on scene and then they have to command thier units on scene. Makes for a hell of a mess on the radio.

[EXDC203 38]

It really is stupid to send all 3 Chiefs out of town. If you dont have a plan in place, the first Chief to call in service should respond with the rig.

[Arrowxt 8]

I agree about all the Chiefs going to a Mutual call. In my district only one Chief usually goes and the rest assemble back at our house. The Capt and lue always go if available. It helps to better protect our district and is less confusing. If we get called for or again for manpower than more than one Chief will respond in, but for just an engine or tanker you will usually only get one Chief .

We also in some cases during the day have Chiefs from our surrounding districts respond to our station and ride rigs. (they either work here or live close by) When this happens they are there as Firefighters and do a heck of a job at it. They do the work and are great sources of information, but never try to command. We return the favor and it works well , when it happens.

Arrow

[IzzyEng4 427]

My department has 1 chief and 4 assistants, a total of 5. Unless we empty every single bay out (very, very rare) usually on one or two chiefs respond on mutual aid depending what is sent. The on-duty chief is first to respond and then a second assistant chief also responds to aid the duty chief or act as another sector officer if need be, or just stands by and waits for an assignment.

I can see no more that two chiefs coming from a mutual aid town but no more, one is ideal but also depending what that other town needs and requests. Having all your chiefs and officers for that matter is unnecessary. One or two chiefs and the line officers from that specific mutual aid company responding is enough.

[antiquefirelt 994]

This is a problem in our area too. Everyone wants to go to the fire and the chief officer's have less rules to live by. Our department will gererally send 2 of 4 chiefs on the M/A job. One is generally the C of D who interfaces with the IC and the second is generally used as a sector officer in the area our company(ies) are operating. The second chief is generally the duty officer of the day and it is his choice to respond or send a Lt. with the Company. Two of the A/C's always go, I go if the C of D is not iimmediately enroute or is out of town. We are the only career dept. in our area so we like to have senior officers interfacing with the volunteer chief's to help smooth any ripples. Most of the vol. chiefs wouldn't ask a Lt. for help tactically but will call another chief over upon arrival.

[Fex404 0]

As I had posted before -- my department has one chief respond on M/A calls. The towns around us are seperated between the chiefs and whichever dept calls us - then we know which chief will be going. Prior arrangements are made when one chief will be out of town or something of the sort. It works great for us.

ex: If M/A depts 1,2,3 call us then cheif xxx1 responds if 4,5,6 call us then xxx2 responds.....and so on ......

[Guest]

To me, it makes no sense for all 3 chiefs to respond M/A. All it accomplishes is making and already hectic fire scene even worse. At a fire scene there is 1 I/C, for that reason alone there is really no need for all those chiefs. Like Alpha said, 3 chiefs just for a M/A engine or tanker...totally unnecessary.

[TimesUp 148]

It sounds like however you put it that there will be alot of Chiefs at any given M/A fire. The primary dept will most likely have plenty of their own Chiefs there. Than for any mutual aid called more chiefs will soon follow.

Some of these incoming depts have SOP's as per their dutys at another dept's fire. I think this is where the overall command stucture on a fireground starts to break down. Where we go from having one IC to having several. All with good intentions probably. If the dept recieving mutual aid already has sector chiefs do incoming dept need to bring there own? If the incoming Engine,truck or tanker already has an officer, Is'nt it then his job to ensure the saftey of his Co.

It could be its a matter of communication, in which case having a member of your dept at the command post would be a great idea.

This might be a matter of self dispatching as well which has been covered on here before.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I'm going to spin this a little differently. Do you really need to send a chief at all? You have company level officers. M/A is often a single company call, is it a lack in faith of the officers, which means you need to fix a problem. How can officers advanced themselves if you need a chief for company level calls.

I've always wondered and marveled at this. FAST calls, you need a chief for that? How about when 2 or 3 respond to that. Wires down, single company call...you need a chief for that? Then again I've seen 3 respond. CO calls? AFA's? Even if there is a chief there do they let the junior officers run the call with their guidance to build confidence and gain an understanding of what needs to occur?

If you have policies that are enforced and SOP/SOG's you wouldn't. If you have a good system of of officer qualification and growth you wouldn't.

[AFD-PM 0]

Has anyone ever thought that maybe the information that is said on this board may be a little off. At the incident that HFD23 is talking about not all the M/A departments had all 3 chiefs there. I also think that it is crazy to have 3 cheifs responding to a M/A call. I know that in my department that only 1 cheif goes on the M/A.

[IzzyEng4 427]

ALS I do agree with you but at the same time, a single chief officer should respond as a representative for the mutual aid department and be at the command post since they are his / her personnel being utilized by another agency. Line officers (Cap'ns and Loo's) are going to be working depending on manpower the company sends. Chief officers do have access to vital information on their own personnel in case an injury or something worse happens. Also a single chief officer is also beneficial at the command post of XX town in case additional resources are needed from his / her town. If a chief officer is not available, the next highest rank from that mutual aid company should be at the command post.

In a career department, you know that a single company may only have 2, 3, or 4 persons on a truck (2 firefighters, officer and driver). If the manpower is needed the entire crew is going to work and the officer should be with the rest of the company. In a volunteer situation, you may get 7, 8, 9 members responding and the officers of that company need to work on span and control of their members and a chief officer in this situation would be a necessity to report to XX town's command post, or the company captain if the chief is not available.

This is just one way I look at it and I know this can be expanded on either way but I'm just looking at a mutual aid situation from my experience with the departments we respond with.

[HFD23 37]

Has anyone ever thought that maybe the information that is said on this board may be a little off.  At the incident that HFD23 is talking about not all the M/A departments had all 3 chiefs there.  I also think that it is crazy to have 3 cheifs responding to a M/A call.  I know that in my department that only 1 cheif goes on the M/A.

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Once again I stated that it meant no offense to any department... 2ndly this happens many times and many places so don't look to get defensive this is not the only incident where it has happened. (also I was not there I don't know who was there, but as the IA says maybe they were, maybe they were not at this incident, the bottom line is it happens, the point is not to pick on this incident its a general fact that does happen a lot of places) I have seen it happen and will continue

the bottom line is protect your citizens first don’t put them at risk for every one to run off to a fire, I know we all want to go but some one needs to stay back and protect the district.

Lastly I would like to see people not get defensive.. look at a topic that we all know does happen and try to learn from it... no one seeks to attack any department because hell we all have our short comings, but you can try to learn from facts to better us all

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Good post Izzy and its nice to see when different ideas are presented we all can discuss them amicably. I do see your reasoning, I just see them differently as in my eariler post.

If I am the IC of XYZ...I do not want additional persons hanging around my command post. I honestly believe that a Capt and lower ranks can handle operating on scene. You check in, find out what frequency, what your assignment/radio designation is and what level you fit into their chain of command as set up through ICS. The IC should be directing...not sending info through one more person. If we could get a coordinated effort on accountability that would not be an issue. But that is the way I see it and I understand and respect yours.

What do you do if you only have 1 of your Chief officers around? No deputy cheifs etc?

Your Captain, Lieutenant, Firefighters are going to have to handle one or the other.

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

You would think common sense would dictate that one would stay back. There is no reason to pull all 3 Chiefs out. Even if you have a Deputy available. It's just poor management. It's the same thing as sending an engine fully staffed, and then have 5 more people show up at the alarm in their cars. Who's watching the store at that point? no one.

I would have no problem sending additional manpower if required. Just as long as I have enough staffing back in my own quarters to handle jobs in my own district.

[helicopper 1,050]

I think this is where the overall command stucture on a fireground starts to break down.  Where we go from having one IC to having several.  All with good intentions probably.  If the dept recieving mutual aid already has sector chiefs do incoming dept need to bring there own?  If the incoming Engine,truck or tanker already has an officer,  Is'nt it then his job to ensure the saftey of his Co. 

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Actually, this is a common misconception! Though they are chiefs, when they respond to someone else's incident they are not an incident commander. If the XYZ fire chief is on the scene of an incident in XYZ, he/she is the IC. Fire chiefs from mutual aid departments become agency representatives (to use the ICS terminology) and should be at the ICP available to the IC so they can discuss limitations, equipment, training, etc. They may be reassigned to other ICS positions, Safety Officer, Operations Section Chief, Interior Division Supervisor, etc. also.

These mutual aid chiefs, PD or EMS supervisors, Con Ed supervisors, DPW/Water Department Supervisors all report to the Liaison Officer if one is appointed so as not to distract the IC from being the IC. If there isn't a liaison officer, having all these people showing up at the ICP should be a pretty good reminder to appoint one!

As for "Sector Chiefs", what exactly are you referring too because that is not a NIMS or ICS position?

Interesting side note - if you follow any of the higher alarm assignments in FDNY, they now assign a battalion chief to serve as the Resource Unit Leader and on third alarm or higher jobs a chief rides with NYPD Aviation as an air recon person. They've really embraced ICS and if you look at pictures of wildfires out west, don't be surprised to see someone wearing FDNY gear at the ICP - they're actually going out west to get checked out (red-carded) in ICS positions for the NWCG.

[IzzyEng4 427]

What do you do if you only have 1 of your Chief officers around?  No deputy cheifs etc? 

Your Captain, Lieutenant, Firefighters are going to have to handle one or the other.

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Very good point and great insight form the other side of the table. When I was a line officer in my department that is one thing that all the line officers agreed upon, the chiefs needed us to the run scenes more often rather than rely on them when they were not around, which happens from time to time. Also to that brings us back to an earlier topic of more responsibilities for captains, lieutenants and senior firefighters on a scene. How many times does the responsibility of lower ranks get taken away. Very good point.

Just like responding in your own town for certain call, like you said, and I agree, sometimes a chief officer is not needed with competent line officers on scene.

[TimesUp 148]

Actually, this is a common misconception!  Though they are chiefs, when they respond to someone else's incident they are not an incident commander.  If the XYZ fire chief is on the scene of an incident in XYZ, he/she is the IC.  Fire chiefs from mutual aid departments become agency representatives (to use the ICS terminology) and should be at the ICP available to the IC so they can discuss limitations, equipment, training, etc.  They may be reassigned to other ICS positions, Safety Officer, Operations Section Chief, Interior Division Supervisor, etc. also. 

These mutual aid chiefs, PD or EMS supervisors, Con Ed supervisors, DPW/Water Department Supervisors all report to the Liaison Officer if one is appointed so as not to distract the IC from being the IC.  If there isn't a liaison officer, having all these people showing up at the ICP should be a pretty good reminder to appoint one!

As for "Sector Chiefs", what exactly are you referring too because that is not a NIMS or ICS position?

Interesting side note - if you follow any of the higher alarm assignments in FDNY, they now assign a battalion chief to serve as the Resource Unit Leader and on third alarm or higher jobs a chief rides with NYPD Aviation as an air recon person.  They've really embraced ICS and if you look at pictures of wildfires out west, don't be surprised to see someone wearing FDNY gear at the ICP - they're actually going out west to get checked out (red-carded) in ICS positions for the NWCG.

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Chris, I think you missed the point. YES, there is only one IC. The break down comes when the other Chiefs arrive all adding there bit of statagy. This is where the breakdown happens, and yes it does happen. Stratagys change , tactics change all without the IC being aware. This is when things become dangerous.

As far as sector chiefs? This was a term used and some places still is. They for example would be responsible for instance the #3 exposure and any efforts that are being made back there. Although with nims this title might not exsist but the job wil still be assigned to someone. Most likely at a multi alarm fire this person will be a Chief.

[Guest DFFD227]

Being that I was at this fire, and I did post the IA, I stand corrected today, when I was informed that the cheif units were incorrect. I was officially told that there was one (1) chief from each department on scene.

[emt301 4]

Not to mention when you ask for 3 different things from 3 different departments, you have 9 chiefs on the radio calling enroute, on scene and then they have to command thier units on scene. Makes for a hell of a mess on the radio.

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The rule of thumb here is....."Have radio, must talk"...."Have fancy car with lights & siren, must respond"....whether they're actually needed on the scene or not !!!!

I agree with ALS....send your junior officers such as captains or lieutenants with the mutual aid equipment and leave the chiefs in their home fire district. If a captain or lieutenant can't be responsible for his/her crew on a mutual aid call, then maybe he/she shouldn't hold the position in the first place. If you absolutely need a chief to respond mutual aid, then make it 1 and only 1!!!

It's absolutely ridiculous for 2 or 3 chiefs in a department to respond mutual aid to a neighboring department's call...and certainly not in the best interest of their hometown taxpayers.

Edited January 29, 2007 by emt301

[antiquefirelt 994]

I must agree that the have radio must talk issue has become a huge factor. Everyone who is given a radio suddenly has a hieghtened level of self-importance. As for Chief's responding out of town: It is a trust issue as ALS pointed out. Our mistrust is ot with our personnel but rather some of the M/A chief's that insist on putting water in the vent hole, opposing hose streams, no EMS while crews are inside, and a general lack of true fireground experience. Are we perfect? Hell No!! but I know my personnel's limitations and would rather be the one to tell a chief he's crazy in some tactful manner than one of my Capts telling him to get bent we're not going up there if your going to deck gun the place. As IZZY stated our Chief's go to M/A fires to liasion with the IC or other sector officers and provide asssitance. Often we just stand back and watch. The Lt or Capt. will run the crew unless the A/C was the initial responding co. officer. Sadly being the only career dept. in the area we have ruffled feathers with some of the other depts. They think that because our guys are career they automatically think their better. This may have been the case a few years ago, but our guys now know to shut up no matter what, lest we not be invited to the dance again!!

As for RIT assignments: A Chief Officer should be present.First a true utilization of the RIT may be the most dangerous situation the crew has ever faced. Secondly, the dept. who has the members trapped will be faced with many emotional firefighters who are worried about their brothers so maintaining a fully composed staff will be difficult. A fresh chief with some command presence can be a big help.

[Fex404 0]

Being that I was at this fire, and I did post the IA, I stand corrected today, when I was informed that the cheif units were incorrect. I was officially told that there was one (1) chief from each department on scene.

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Dont even worry about that specific incident -- this is a good topic -- it is interesting how everyone does it differently.

[Guest]

Soo many Chiefs, and so few things they have to do but all go out of district to get their jollies off to see fire. This doesn't pertain to all you Chiefs out there. There are several departments which send out the appropriate amount of "Chiefs to Indians". Usually only 1 chiesf really is needed per department responding mutual aid.

I have seen many of times first hand where One engine company from one department responded mutual aid to a box, "led" by all 3 of it's Chiefs. That's overkill and a true abuse of one town's recources. Truth be told, only the 2nd A.C. was doing actual work. The other two were standing around, mingling.

Time to grow up a bit Chiefs.

[Guest ATIFD]

In previous threads comments are made that we have trouble staffing and responding to calls. Then when there is a legitimate call we question the number of people sent to the call? Which way do we want it, are we to be inept, incapable emergency responders or a well trained, highly motivated group? Especially with a call at a hospital, early in the morning when hospital staff might be at a minimum, shouldn't we dedicate as much manpower as possible until you get the situation under control?

Unlike departments in the north part of the county our districts are much smaller. You could be in Hastings (the southern most part of Battalion 14) and be able to get to Elmsford (the furthest northeastern portion) in less than 10 minutes (Greenburg ALS units do it all day long). I don't think the argument of leaving your own district vulnerable because a chief isn't in town a legitimate concern in the Greenburg area (as long as the extra chief hasn't committed him/herself).

Irvington had all 3 chiefs sign on for this particular call. Our protocol is, if 3 chief's are available, one goes directly to the scene to report to IC, one goes to the firehouse to lead incoming apparatus, the third trails, confirms that members are at HQ to staff additional equipment and if they respond to the scene make an effort to park away from the scene and will not commit to any operations. In this case, Dobbs Ferry Hospital is maybe 1/4 mile from our district line. Whether the extra chief went to the scene or went home back to sleep would not make any difference in response. But there are also plenty of occasions when the extra chief hasn’t responded and will remain in the district.

There were some valid concerns stated in prior comments but what about the benefits of having extra chiefs on scene? What about past threads posted about accountability, safety, ICS? How are these tasks supposed to be handled? Who is supposed to teach the younger lieutenants and captains when "real" calls are few and far between? If the local department doesn't have the staff necessary to handle these tasks Battalion 14 relies on incoming mutual aid chiefs. This arrangement has been setup in advance and trained on. I don't know if any other groups do this but Battalion 14 drills at WCDES training faculty as a group and here's what happens. The group, up to 80 firefighters not only train on the different simulators but the chiefs train together on each part of the operation. Yes, THE CHIEFS ARE TRAINING just for situations like this weekend. Each evolution a chief will take a turn at IC, operations, safety, accountability, staging, etc..etc.. So the extra chiefs aren't just showing up to scenes to buff and get their jollies off, but are expected to be active participants and be important part of the decision making process.

From experience as Incident Commander at large and small incidents in Battalion 14, I have found comfort in knowing that the chiefs that I know by first name and are confident in their abilities are coming to support our operations. I know calling for an engine from Tarrytown and truck from Dobbs will not only bring me the manpower needed to work but will also bring the supervisors needed for all the other parts of the operation.

Finally, I also find in very inappropriate for a very intelligent discussion to bring in the comments of "Buff fest". HFD23 asked a legitimate question based on info he read and heard. All too often, these other derogatory comments take these threads in the wrong direction. Every department operates differently; don’t call it stupid or buffy. Get educated about other departments policies and procedures and learn something new.