Transporting of Seeing Eye Dogs

[Remember585 815]

Recently, I was on an EMS call where the spouse of the patient wanted to come with us. Like always, we accomodated her and informed her she had to sit in the front seat with her seatbelt on.

BUT

The woman in question is blind. She depends on the services of her seeing eye dog. She asked if we could transport it. Being the senior member of the crew, I had to make a decision. I have been doing EMS for 15 years and this is the first time I ever had this come up. Since one of the EMTs and I are both allergic, because with the patient and wife we already had five people on board and because I am pretty sure there is a DOH rule on this, I declined.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

I would greatly appreciate any information anyone can provide me on this, it's been bothering me because I really don't know.

Thanks.

[Goose 188]

So, you transported her and not the dog? Or neither were transported?

As much as i would like to be accommodating, the fact remains that there is simply no room and its simply unsafe to transport a dog in any portion of an ambulance. I would probably pull the PO aside and see if he couldn't drive her and the dog to the ED. It would seem rather pointless to not transport the two together, seeing as the women in question depends on the dog when walking and the like.

As far as the DOH, i havent ever heard of anything on paper, but i'm pretty sure they would not be keen (to say the least) on the idea.

[CTFF 65]

NEW YORK

New York Statutes: Civil Rights Law, Article 4-B, Sections 47 through 47c, 1986; Transportation Law, Section 147 New York law guarantees a blind person the legal right to be accompanied by a dog guide in all public accommodations, in employment, and on public transportation. No extra charge can be levied because of the dog guide's presence, but the dog must be in harness and the dog guide user can be asked to produce an identification card. A blind person who possesses a dog guide is entitled to equal housing accommodations and cannot be charged a fee because of the dog guide. Public accommodations include resorts, theaters, restaurants, stores, hotels, places of recreation, and all other places to which the public is invited. (Sect. 47) Public transportation includes taxis, subways, trains, buses, boats, airplanes, and all other modes of conveyance offered for public use. (Sect. 47) Housing accommodations include public and private rental properties designed as sleeping quarters or residences. (Sect. 47) Employment includes state service or that of its political subdivisions and all other employment activity. Equal employment opportunity includes prohibition against discrimination based on blindness. (Sect. 47a) Violation: Any owner, manager, or employee who interferes with the above enumerated rights is subject to prosecution under several New York State statutes. (Sect. 47c)

[Goose 188]

Is an ambulance considered public transportation, because thats all that statute appears to refer to?

After a little research, i cant find anything that suggests ambulances are deemed public transportation or subject to that particular statute.

I'm stumped, i would stick to my gut, but i wouldn't want to inadvertently violate someone's civil rights. To me, its just a matter of safety...

Edited June 8, 2007 by Goose

[huzzie59 75]

What would be the hospital's policy on the other end of the call? Dog in the ED okay?

[CTFF 65]

is an ambulance considered public transportation?

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I'm not sure. I think you would have multiple laws/rules that would come into play in this situation, DOH and ADA for example.

I would think it would be best to make sure you explain that the crew is allergic to dogs and you will be happy to make sure she gets to the hosipital. She could be transported via, fly car, PD or another bus.

[wcr20 17]

doesnt directly answer the question, bit i found this...

http://www.nfbnet.org/pipermail/journalist...uly/000010.html

[Guest WCDES636]

I would have dispatched 2051 to care and transport the K9

[RWC130 594]

This was just brought up in my EMT refresher.

Yes, you can transport the PT w/ Dog.

[calhobs 110]

Something doesnt seem right, This women and her dog are allowed in emergency rooms, hosptials, nursing homes, and this is just to visit, but when the women needs an ambulance I think the dog should be transported with her. Then in the same thought if it is an true emergency (which calls for a stay in the hosptial) the women then again wont need the dog until she comes home. Interesting question maybe we should give our friends at REMAC a call and find out.

[calhobs 110]

This was just brought up in my EMT refresher.

Yes, you can transport the PT w/ Dog.

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got our answer

[Remember585 815]

I forgot to mention that it was a BLS run so our ALS run was already clear. Our PD really can't be running to the ER for that - only 2 cars on duty.

I took into consideration the ADA, and as a matter of safety for all of us on the rig I made the decision that I did.

I don't beleive an ambulance falls under public transportation, simply because it is an emergency vehicle. Any law dogs out there that can shed some light here?

As for 2051, he was working babe, I was on vacation.

[Guest]

Since you and the EMT were allergic I would say that you made the right call. You can not provide a high level of care when you are sneezing and your eyes are watering. If I were placed in the same position I would have taken the seeing eye dog. I am not allergic which is the only mitigating reason. The DOH is quite clear with regards to pets but in this particular case the animal was a guide dog. I am almost positive (99%) that there is no DOH regulation limiting guide dogs in ambulances or hospitals. I try to be as accommodating as I can be within reason. I always try to make the patient as comfortable as possible. In this case the patient would have been more comfortable if he was able to travel with his wife/seeing eye dog.

I disagree with you goose. Why do you say there is no safe way to transport a dog in the ambulance?

[helicopper 1,050]

This was just brought up in my EMT refresher.

Yes, you can transport the PT w/ Dog.

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Except in this scenario this is a family member - not the patient.

Ambulances are not public transportation - they are usually privately owned and used strictly for emergency medical services and transportation. As much as they may seem like taxis much of the time, they are not "public transportation". You can't flag one down and say take me to the train station.

I would check with the DOH EMS Bureau - I seem to remember a regulation from a while back that specifically prohibited transportation of animals in an ambulance - other than the two legged variety.

Difficult situation - I can understand your confusion about it!

[Remember585 815]

I sent an e-mail to DOH as well as WREMAC. I'll post my findings as soon as I get them. Thanks everyone!

[RWC130 594]

Chris192,

Ambulances are not public transportation - they are usually privately owned and used strictly for emergency medical services and transportation. As much as they may seem like taxis much of the time, they are not "public transportation". You can't flag one down and say take me to the train station.

If you have $20.00 for me you sure can! LOL

[Guest]

Seems like a bad idea to transport animals in the ambulance. What if you have to use your sirens and the dog goes crazy? When I took my EMT class the instructor said that if a person has a pet (especially a dog) ask them to lock it up and don't enter until they have (obviously this is situation dependent), because (paraphrasing here) "even a nice dog can become very agressive when they feel their owners are in danger." Leave the dog at home, and have the patient or the ER arrange for its transportation to the hospital if needed. Also a patient shouldn't need a guide dog as they should not be walking unescorted anyway (I know that wasn't the case here, I'm just saying). Just my opinion.

[Guest partyrock]

In this case you have the option. She wants to go with, but it isn't necessary. If the person w/ the dog is escourting a minor or is the pt you HAVE to make accomodations.

That does not mean securing the dog at home awaiting someone's return. The dog is to be transported to the hospital at the same time as the pt. If its in another vehicle thats fine, but if you can't get another ride the dog must come with you. Pets, you can tell 'em to lock up the dog. Seeing eye and other assistance dogs are to be considered one with the pt.

To those of you who are worried about being allergic to the dog, if you survived the home and the pt being covered with alergens the dog isn't going to be that big of a difference. Just make sure you wash your hands, don't touch your face and wipe down the bus...sounds like rules we should be following anyway.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

As much as i would like to be accommodating, the fact remains that there is simply no room and its simply unsafe to transport a dog in any portion of an ambulance.

To me this isn't about being accommodating, this is about customer service and also assisting a blind person with their for a lack of a better term "equipment." If the patient was confined to a specialized wheelchair or needed some other piece of equipment that is directly weighted to their care and/or survival because it is specials needs do you not transport them with that? If I can fit a wheelchair in a bus I can fit a dog. There is a spot in most buses no matter what type right between the seats. Then again where I work is a major area that trains seeing eye dogs and they go through very rigorous evaluation, I'd have it sit next to me so I could pet it. (yeah believe it or not ALS is a dog lover)

I'm not so sure about what is so "unsafe" about transporting a dog, particulary a seeing eye dog much for the reasons stated about about the evaluation process they go through. I often deal with or transport patients that are more animals than any dog.

Seems like a bad idea to transport animals in the ambulance. What if you have to use your sirens and the dog goes crazy?

Something tells me that if the patient was in a condition where you had to use your lights and sirens, you woudn't be having much time to discuss options about transporting a dog. Again I want to also point out that we are not just talking about run of the mill dogs, I have yet to see a dog, ones that are even going through training freak out as any emergency vehicle has gone by with lights and sirens going. If anyone thinks its that much of a problem....don't use them. You'll still get to the hospital anyway and percentage wise with less chance of having an accident.

Bottom line is this....and I applaud 585 for bringing up a good discussion topic.... I'm transporting the person and the dog. I'd clean the ambulance as normal. And I'm sure for some of us we often treat conditions where the dog is probably cleaner. If someone doesn't like it...I'll pay my pentance. Sometimes its better to do and ask for forgiveness then ask and not get to do.

[INIT915 1,119]

Check out : DOJ ADA Information

There is a ton of information, and as I clicked thru it, I found several references, while not specifically mentioning EMS/Ambulances, makes it fairly clear to me, that you would be violating the ADA if you refused transport.

References are made to private property, businesses, and even private taxis, all required to accommodate.

Honestly, this was my opinion before I searched this site, but now I am confidante. I believe if I was 642 in his position, I would have accommodated.

Also, if you read thru the DOJ website, ADA trumps State and Local Laws. So, even if NYS DOH or WREMAC issued an opinion against accommodating such patients (which I could not see them doing anyway), you would be violating federal civil rights statutes by ignoring ADA guidelines, opening yourself and your agency to significant penalties.

Basically, in 642's example: If you would have allowed ANY OTHER civilian to ride in that front seat on that particular EMS call, you could not justify banning this particular civilian or her service dog.

[RWC130 594]

[attachmentid=2885]

I don't like Remember585 anyway or his smelly Ambulance!

[Oswegowind 17]

Call her a cab and put it on your tab...your rich ain't ya?

[Remember585 815]

I appreciate all the help, and I wish I was right in this case. I think I will drop by the house this week and apologize, sighting the fact I have never had any real education on this type of situation.

I was, for the record, considering that if the call went ALS, I would of put Rover in the Fly Car. But it was B(L)S and we released the Medic. And, since it wasn't a life-threatening emergency, no lights or sirens were used, per usual.

I love dogs too - but I really wasn't willing to bring him along because the one EMT is REALLY allergic and started sneezing and getting teary-eyed at the house.

Again, I truly appreciate the input. As soon as I get the word from WREMAC I will share it with everyone just to see what the "official" word is.

[Guest mediconpatrol]

In this type of scenerio we keep saying the "dog" but most of the writings are in regards to pets. This is considered different, seeing eye dogs are exempt from the "NO PETS" law. They are definately allowed in the hospital, restaurants and everywhere else. Though it may not make for the most optimal of circumstances, I would definately have transported the guide dog with the patients wife.

[ckroll 101]

In Putnam Valley we used to have a prearrangement with Animal Control to do emergency pick up for animals. Animals are often unrestrained passengers in PIAAs and suffer as much, or more, than their human companions in rollovers. As with rescues and evacuations, owners are often unwilling to leave furry family without care. Peekskill Animal Hospital is right next to HVHC, so PVVAC and animal control did package deals where the family could go to HVHC and the pet would get delivered next door.

More than once I've done an extrication where pets were involved. It wasn't a problem. You do need a pre-plan, however. Use a pillow case to bag cats and rip a sheet for whatever dog control device you may need. Letting injured owners and especially children know that EVERY member of the family is getting attention can be an important part of patient care. That said, don't pick up what you can't put down. There has to be a way to shelter a pet at point of delivery, so the animal has to go somewhere it will be welcome.

If I have to, I'll transport extended family [if I have a plan for what will happen on the other end], hope I don't get caught and take the whipping if I do. I'm with ALSfirefighter, people can be dirtier and smell worse. If crew is allergic and there are no good options, I'd put pup in the front seat on a sheet, with a halo harness made out of a sheet tied into the shoulder harness, and close the door to the box. ... and keep some milk bones in the glove box. Again, pre-plan so it isn't necessary. It's someone else's emergency; it's our job.

Then there was the time I took a live snake to HVHC because I refused to kill it for purposes of identification.....

[Remember585 815]

Then there was the time I took a live snake to HVHC because I refused to kill it for purposes of identification.....

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It's not in the fly-car still I hope...

WREMAC replied to my e-mail. Basically, the DOH has no set protocol for this kind of thing, and they are working on it. Basically, in accordance to ADA regulations, I was in the wrong, but since it is a gray area for the most part, I can keep being an EMT another day.... (yay?!)

[Goose 188]

How can/would you secure the dog in the ambulance? Is sitting between the cap and box acceptable or should you try to use a seatbelt?

[Guest partyrock]

Seeing eye dogs wear a harnes that can be used to secure the dog. The creative part is how do you secure the dog. A sheet or spare strap tied around the chair would work. You may even be able to run the seatbelt through the harness. However the dogs are obediant enough to just sit for the duration of the ride. Best bet is ask the patient.

[Guest]

If the patient is the one that's blind (but not in your case), the dog must go. Unless some expediant brainstorming can be done to ensure the timely transport of the canine to the ER where the patient is. Same goes for certified therapy dogs. They accompany the patient WHEREVER they go. It is up to us to accomidate them.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

I would almost be certain that most animals have been cleaner than some patients you or I have taken up to the hospital before, no? I have seen quite a few "grungy" (to be nice) patients.

Also yes, seeing-eye dogs go through all sorts of training so as to not become distracted by loud noises, but to be aware of them. Seeing-eye dogs in NYC deal with tons of commotions, horns, sirens, airhorns, large crowds; so I do not see them being in an ambulance as a terrible thing.

In YOUR case Remember585, with yourself/partner being highly allergic, if you were the only ambulance available for the transport, how can you effectively treat someone when you yourself become physically incapacitated to treat a patient, red, watery eyes, sneezing, coughing, etc.....

In this case, you did what you had to do, to effectively treat that patient.

Once you get to the hospital, yes, no patient should be wandering around unaccompanied, and although a person may be used to their helper animal, there would have to be a human to lead them around anyways.

I do, however, think that your decision to stop by and chat with this unfortunate patient of yours, and explain the situation would be most commendable. I would hate terribly for someone to feel angry/upset for a decision made such as that. That decision was in the best interest of everyones. One can only be so accommodating, until their own needs supersede those of the person they wish to administer aid to.

Edited June 13, 2007 by xfirefighter484x