Peoples lives put in danger due to fueding departments?

[Guest]

Okay before I begin. Let me just say I am not trying to start a conflict, just would like some answers. I have been noticing more and more while listening to the scanner that a certain fire department in the southern dutchess area has been calling mutual aid from another Department that makes absolutely no sense to call to the scene. For example, there is a chimney fire on xx road and they need a ladder truck. Now instead of calling the ladder truck (which is fully manned due to people being at the firehouse) that is literally a quarter mile down the road they call one that is about 7 to 10 miles away. Also there is another truck sationed about 1.5 miles away. I have heard this on numerous occasions and as a resident of the area I find this completely unacceptable. I would like to know that if there was an emergency at my home that help would be coming from the closest available place, not from wherever someones buddy or whatever othere reason it may happen. I would think that no matter what the Chief officer of a department would make decisions that are in the best interest of the community and not what might get him a new friend. I have also heard county dispatch the closer complany and then the chief gets on the radio and says they are not on the assignment please hold them and dispatch such and such company. I have also heard this happen with with another department in the same area. They have a possible structure fire and are calling a fast team to the scene. Instead of calling the company that once again is 1 mile away and has a fast team, they call a department that is about 8 miles away with their fast team. I dont get it, if there is some sort of fued going on between two fire companies it should not put the community in danger because of this. They should be putting their diffierences to the side once the bell rings and do their jobs like proffesionals instead of acting like junior high students. I am getting more info on these departments and I am seriously contimplating writing a letter to the editor so that other people in the community no that their lives are being put in danger so that someone else doesnt have to swallow their pride. Now mind you I am not affiliated with either of these departments, but I know many who are and they have flat out told me it is because they dont like this company or that company. I have told them my feelings on this issue and they understand completely where I am coming from but say their hands are tied because the higher ups are the ones with the problems and they make the decisions and dont want to here anyones concerns. Can anyone tell me why this happens or if they think there is a better way to go about telling these people that what they are doing is wrong and dangerous or should I just leave it be and wait for something bad to happen.

Now also keep in mind that the equipment that is closer is the exact same if not better then the one being dispatched from further away, so that cant be the excuse they use. I am sorry but I feel this is very immature and very dangerous. Once again no that I am not trying to start a fight. I just want some answers and someanswers from the many proffesionals on this forum that may be able to shed some light on this issue.

Thank you.

Edited October 27, 2007 by srs2308

[Future Fireman 4]

Okay before I begin. Let me just say I am not trying to start a conflict, just would like some answers.

Well, if you're looking to start a conflict, this has to be up there as a conflict starter, even if you didn't intend for it.

They have a possible structure fire and are calling a fast team to the scene. Instead of calling the company that once again is 1 mile away and has a fast team, they call a department that is about 8 miles away with their fast team. I dont get it, if there is some sort of fued going on between two fire companies it should not put the community in danger because of this. They should be putting their diffierences to the side once the bell rings and do their jobs like proffesionals instead of acting like junior high students.

This begs the question "Is the company that's 1 mile away trained in FAST? Or are do they just have 5, 10, members to make a "FAST Team"????

I think I've said enough, if I overstepped onto somebody toes here, Somebody PM me.

Mike

[Oswegowind 17]

I feel ya...this is what happens under "home rule" which is the way NYS is governed! It is not safe for the persons in need nor is it safe for the firefighters of the department needing the equipment...but if that is what the "Chief" says, that is what he says...even if he is an idiot and is putting the lives of his members and the constituents they are supposed to protect into further jeopardy. If this pertains to you, maybe you should re-think your ways and realize that friends will be there when you call them, even if you don't...

[Guest]

Yeah I see now that I am re-reading my original post that this may cause a conflict, but hopefully it will start a valid discussion on this issue. Now remember I am not a member of any of these companies involved. I am just a concerned citizen. As for your quesion on the fast team issue, from what I have been told they are an official Fast Team.

[Oswegowind 17]

OK, well if they are specifically requesting a FAS Team and the neighboring departments are unable to provide this specific service, than there is nothing wrong with going to the next available company with the specific type of equipment or service. However, better would be an automatic dispatch on such assignments that sound as though they may be needed, reducing the response/waiting time for that service to be in place.

At my job, if it sounds like a worker, the Battalion Chief will usually roll the next due Engine Co. for FAS Team coverage, so they are on the way already, and when the crews actually get to doing, they are there to help if needed. The crews usually are not left uncovered by this service and don't have to "wait" long for it to arrive. We all know that Cities are different than rural areas when "coverage" is brought into play. The next due company may be miles away and not just a few city blocks.

[Guest]

Alright, I guess I hit a touchy subject here and I have just received a pm that I would not like to discuss in this forum, but know that I think it is ridiculous what was just said to me. I will not snitch on the person it was from but. But I am asking the moderators to delete this post and I will just wait until something happens to someone in the community and then I will voice my concerns. Have a nice night and enjoy this site, since what I thought was a valid point and something should be discussed turned into a bash on me via PM. Huh just got another one, unreal. I am done with bravo after this. For those of you who thought this was a good subject and those who replied to it thank you. Talk to you all later.

[x129K 1,393]

I heard that call too.......

I've never met the guy myself, but it seems he is always on the radio questioning County's actions....

Whatever I guess...you do have to take care of number 1.

[PVFD233 68]

It seems to happen alot. Even ambulances that should be called 1st M/A get overlooked for something farther away. Someting to consider though is Mutal Aid Plans. Pre-Planned M/A. Even still you get people that abuse it.

[PVFD233 68]

Alright, I guess I hit a touchy subject here and I have just received a pm that I would not like to discuss in this forum, but know that I think it is ridiculous what was just said to me. I will not snitch on the person it was from but. But I am asking the moderators to delete this post and I will just wait until something happens to someone in the community and then I will voice my concerns. Have a nice night and enjoy this site, since what I thought was a valid point and something should be discussed turned into a bash on me via PM. Huh just got another one, unreal. I am done with bravo after this. For those of you who thought this was a good subject and those who replied to it thank you. Talk to you all later.

Who cares what they said? Do you really? You have a opinion and their is nothing wrong with that.

[Future Fireman 4]

Alright, I guess I hit a touchy subject here and I have just received a pm that I would not like to discuss in this forum, but know that I think it is ridiculous what was just said to me. I will not snitch on the person it was from but. But I am asking the moderators to delete this post and I will just wait until something happens to someone in the community and then I will voice my concerns. Have a nice night and enjoy this site, since what I thought was a valid point and something should be discussed turned into a bash on me via PM. Huh just got another one, unreal. I am done with bravo after this. For those of you who thought this was a good subject and those who replied to it thank you. Talk to you all later.

Forget their comment, just keep on using EMTBravo. I've had a bad comment PM'ed to me a few months back, and what do you know, I'm still posting! Just keep your head high so you can wade yourself out of that crap they sent you and you'll be fine.

Mike

[x129K 1,393]

Man Up Bro........don't let 'em bother ya! Then THEY win.......

[Oswegowind 17]

Jeez, Mike (future fireman), I didn't think calling you a Red Sox fan was that bad a comment when I sent it to you...but thinking about it more I guess it is messed up calling you that! You are welcome to be a Yankee fan anytime...LOL.

On the fact: This topic should not be deleted, it is a major concern and issue, and if change is to start, it should start here (sorry)... If someone PM's you they have something to hide...if they think this is a non issue, let them stand up and speak their piece and put out their opinion for discussion. They don't have to identify themselves as someone involved but maybe they can give us 1 good reason for skipping departments that is not obvious to the naked ear (sorry again).

Like I said before, to put theirself, their members, and their constinuents (people whom they serve) in jeopardy is cause for alarm. Safety first, right? However, if there is a reason, such as neighboring service is lacking a particular piece or equipment or service, I think that each and every one of us will understand and the discussion will be solved rather than impeded by egos.

On a side note, PM's should not be used to threaten anyone. If you don't like the discussion, ignore IT!

And as for questioning dispatch, I believe it should never be done over the air, there are a lot of ears listening and it sounds so unprofessional, if there is a problem, call the dispatch supervisor and deal with it, if you are not a supervisor to begin with, you should start by contacting your supervisor. Dispatchers are humans and they make mistakes, however proper dispatching is not a mistake and when someone feels the need to change the decision that was made based on policy and procedure they should be ready to be put in their place. Mutual aid plans should be pre plans that are adhered to, and not even the person on the scene should be able to change it on a whim...if they try they should be brought up on charges and removed from their position. These plans should be planned out properly to include all types of specialty service calls and kept on file for the dispatch agency to review when called for. Or, don't call mutual aid and try to do it yourself, get your own dispatcher, and leave the rest of us alone...and let us know how it turns out!

Edited October 27, 2007 by Oswegowind

[Guest]

I am back and I have not asked the moderators to get rid of this topic. I believe it is a valid concern and no longer care what anyone says. I do appreciate the support though.

[x129K 1,393]

Attaboy!

[Guest]

Attaboy!

So you heard the call too.When I heard it and felt that it needed to be brought up and see what others thought and if anyone that it was an issue.

[PVFD233 68]

So you heard the call too.When I heard it and felt that it needed to be brought up and see what others thought and if anyone that it was an issue.

Get my PM?

[Goose 188]

Bringing up the questions no one wants asked is not whats being done enough these days. You call someone out and they come down on top of you like white on rice, but if your concern is valid and well articulated you have nothing to fear.

Now, heres a question. Because i have only limited experience with DC911, if something is requested - like in this case a FAS Team or Truck Company - from a department farther away while a closer dept. has the resources, can they bypass this request and call the closest unit? What about the DC coordinators can they play a role in straitening this out?

[x129K 1,393]

I just kinda chuckled when I heard it....

But like I said...everyone wants things done differently....and if they are ruling the roost..so be it.

[Guest]

Bringing up the questions no one wants asked is not whats being done enough these days. You call someone out and they come down on top of you like white on rice, but if your concern is valid and well articulated you have nothing to fear.

Now, heres a question. Because i have only limited experience with DC911, if something is requested - like in this case a FAS Team or Truck Company - from a department farther away while a closer dept. has the resources, can they bypass this request and call the closest unit? What about the DC coordinators can they play a role in straitening this out?

I was just wondering the same

[Guest]

i especially HATE when certain FD chiefs are on scene and instead of telling 60 to get a BLS bus, they specify agencies because they don't want to deal w/ certain people.

those chiefs or other officers (but i have 1 cheif in mind), should no longer be chief. they are potentially putting lives in danger for politics.

for the idiots i have just mentioned, try to remember -

THE POLITICS STOP WHEN THE TONES GO OUT!!!!!!!!

Edited October 27, 2007 by vacguy

[x129K 1,393]

True...that is how is is supposed to go here in Dutchess as well...that is why we have highly trained dispatchers and a CAD system to rely on....

If you need a mutual aid request - the IC should only ask for it generically. Ie; I need a tower ladder to scene....

It is then up to the 911 Center to send the best available unit (not best as in shiniest trucks, coolest helmets, FDNY lookalikes, etc)...........

I personally think the IC has more iomportant things to worry about than if his buddy "Joe" from XYZ Dept. is gonna come hang out at the fire with him....

However, I also realize that there are times and incidents where you may need to be very specific in your requests....

Edited October 27, 2007 by x129K

[22 Truck 6]

i especially HATE when certain FD chiefs are on scene and instead of telling 60 to get a BLS bus, they specify agencies because they don't want to deal w/ certain people.

While I am also not a fan of this tactic, it reminds me of a call I was on several years ago: my Chief called a neighboring Rescue into a scene of a heavily involved taxpayer to fill bottles. Manpower of the said Rescue, and Chiefs of this dept. complained after a while b/c they weren't put to work, as sufficient manpower was fighting the fire, and continued to complain until we finally just sent them home. Finally, my Chief looked at me and said "Never again will I call them, they are distracting me from running this job." This dept. has done it several times since this fire to other dept.'s.

I ask you guys, what then? I hate skipping departments to call another, but bringing conflict to your fireground is nervewracking and uncalled for. Are there exceptions to this, or do we deal with it b/c they are closest? What do you guys think?

[ex-commish 490]

Alright, I guess I hit a touchy subject here and I have just received a pm that I would not like to discuss in this forum, but know that I think it is ridiculous what was just said to me. I will not snitch on the person it was from but. But I am asking the moderators to delete this post and I will just wait until something happens to someone in the community and then I will voice my concerns. Have a nice night and enjoy this site, since what I thought was a valid point and something should be discussed turned into a bash on me via PM. Huh just got another one, unreal. I am done with bravo after this. For those of you who thought this was a good subject and those who replied to it thank you. Talk to you all later.

This is a very good topic and warrants discussion. I am not aware of the incident that prompted you to present this but I believe it has been a problem here in the past. When I was a chief and I needed resources all I did was call 60-control and tell them what I needed. I usually didn't have time to worry about who to call. I left that up to the dispatcher.

[helicopper 1,050]

THE POLITICS STOP WHEN THE TONES GO OUT!!!!!!!!

Unfortunately they don't!

[PVFD233 68]

Unfortunately they don't!

And probaly never will.

[huzzie59 75]

While I am also not a fan of this tactic, it reminds me of a call I was on several years ago: my Chief called a neighboring Rescue into a scene of a heavily involved taxpayer to fill bottles. Manpower of the said Rescue, and Chiefs of this dept. complained after a while b/c they weren't put to work, as sufficient manpower was fighting the fire, and continued to complain until we finally just sent them home. Finally, my Chief looked at me and said "Never again will I call them, they are distracting me from running this job." This dept. has done it several times since this fire to other dept.'s.

I ask you guys, what then? I hate skipping departments to call another, but bringing conflict to your fireground is nervewracking and uncalled for. Are there exceptions to this, or do we deal with it b/c they are closest? What do you guys think?

What if there had been a past history between the Chiefs or departments wherein the mutual aid company didn't believe in incident command and started freelancing.

The home chief may be doing "the right thing".

Just a thought.

Only the department involved can answer.

[Guest partyrock]

I know nothing about whats going on, but are these depts being skipped truly equal. Ask most ff's down here, as a generalization they'll take a FDNY*EMS bus before a voluntary (there are some excellent voluntary units, this is a generalization). They are all trained to NYS EMT-B or EMT-P level and all carry a certain minimum of equipment but the quality is not the same across the board. Each dept up there has their own standards and requirements. I've noticed that there are some depts that seem to get called more than others, for example Croton's FAST. Is this because the surrounding communities are busy or is it the team they bring to the table? I really don't know. Is there someone familiar with these depts that can clear this up? Is there a problem like 22 truck brought up, is it an issue training and tactics, or is it just as was first suggested pure BS?

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Bringing up the questions no one wants asked is not whats being done enough these days. You call someone out and they come down on top of you like white on rice, but if your concern is valid and well articulated you have nothing to fear.

Now, heres a question. Because i have only limited experience with DC911, if something is requested - like in this case a FAS Team or Truck Company - from a department farther away while a closer dept. has the resources, can they bypass this request and call the closest unit? What about the DC coordinators can they play a role in straitening this out?

Well, a chief officer or county coordinator may specifically request a department for apparatus, whether or not this is the best thing to do, it gets done. Another thought is this.

Do we discuss stripping a small area of similar apparatus? Is it sometimes a better choice to call for apparatus a little farther away to prevent a concentrated area from being down similar apparatus? For example, your closest FASTeam gets called to a scene, and they get put to work. Now, do you call the next closest FASTeam to replace them, thus now taking 2 FASTeams right next to each other OOS?

I think it is a great idea to go out a little farther, in SOME CASES6. Does this thought process come in to play as a factor for these decisions, or is this an after thought used as a reason to back up a decision?? I would put money on the latter, IN MOST CASES! I can not say some people do not specifically think of these considerations, some people are very thoughtful as that goes, but in greater instances, someone is mad at another department because some old timer pissed in someone else's corn flakes when they were younger, and some conflict started, and everyone just generally accepts that fact because, classic to the fire service. "thats how its always been".

Half the time, no one knows why there is a conflict, they just go along with it, and things never get resolved.

This is more of an issue than just a few departments. There are quite a few departments in Dutchess County is like that, and, I'm sure a lot more in departments in this country are like this too, in some way, shape or form.

Edited October 27, 2007 by xfirefighter484x

[x134 46]

srs 2308 be carefull when posting things like this. Anyone from this area can figure out the departments that are involved. I heard it too, and was just leaving the Outback and said to myself hmmm. There are members of these departments on this board. DON'T GET YOURSELF JAMMED UP.Let it roll off and move on......

[Future Fireman 4]

srs 2308 be carefull when posting things like this. Anyone from this area can figure out the departments that are involved. I heard it too, and was just leaving the Outback and said to myself hmmm. There are members of these departments on this board. DON'T GET YOURSELF JAMMED UP.Let it roll off and move on......

So what, this is something that NEEDS to be addressed if Departments are skipping over others that CAN provide quality service, then they should put their freakin' egos (or politics) aside when there's a call and they need a hand.

xfirefighter484x, that's what Dispatch is for. Use other Depts., although not the whole dept, (maybe an engine or truck) to fill up station coverage.

My personal opinion only.

Mike