Concerns Over Lack of FDNY Helicopter

[LineCapt 134]

Concerns Over Lack of FDNY Helicopter

11-27-2007

JIM HOFFER

Courtesy of WABC-TV

When there's a high-rise fire, the FDNY must rely on the police department 's chopper to get a bird's-eye-view.

It's an arrangement that, as the Eyewitness News Investigators have discovered, could be slowing down the fire department's aerial response time.

FULL STORY: http://cms.firehouse.com/web/online/News/C...r/46$57247

[sr71 1]

I think that they should get one. even though the fdny and the nypd air units are working fine (as i see it) i still think that a department of this size, with its amount of high-rise buildings and the amount of fire should have at least one helicopter for air recon and search and rescue.

[JBE 328]

There's been plenty of times that NYPD can't, or won't take a chief to a scene for recon. On the flipside of this, there's budgets to look at, and the inevitable bellyaching from NYPD about FDNY having a helicopter as a duplication of services. 22 minutes from Canarsie to Floyd Bennett isn't to big of a stretch, even with lights and sirens. It's waiting for the helo to warm up that's a problem.

I'm all for the FDNY having its own chopper, actually, two. I just don't think with the current mayor, and a commissioner who is his patsy, that this idea, pardon the pun,will fly.

Edited November 28, 2007 by JBE

[sr71 1]

the fdny woud not be using the helicopter to repel a esu team onto a building would they?......lol this is just like when they get accidents in the city who runs the pin jobs and whose right is it....i think the city can get one donated if they try

[Guest]

i think the city can get one donated if they try

There are many other costs associated with aircraft usage than just the initial purchase price. Insurance, a 24/7 maintenance crew, 24/7 flight crew, time-restricted parts that need to be replaced, hanger space rent, fuel, etc etc.

NYPD already operates several helicopters, including the Air/Sea rescue bird which can do hoist operations, and I honestly think that FDNY could work out a better deal with NYPD over helicopter usage rather than just operating their own fleet.

[rfdu39 89]

The FDNY should get there own helicopter for use at fires and at large brush fires.

[JBE 328]

Once again, it is a duplication of services. NYPD has a bambi bucket.

[helicopper 1,050]

The FDNY should get there own helicopter for use at fires and at large brush fires.

I think that they should get one. even though the fdny and the nypd air units are working fine (as i see it) i still think that a department of this size, with its amount of high-rise buildings and the amount of fire should have at least one helicopter for air recon and search and rescue.

There's been plenty of times that NYPD can't, or won't take a chief to a scene for recon. On the flipside of this, there's budgets to look at, and the inevitable bellyaching from NYPD about FDNY having a helicopter as a duplication of services. 22 minutes from Canarsie to Floyd Bennett isn't to big of a stretch, even with lights and sirens. It's waiting for the helo to warm up that's a problem.

I'm all for the FDNY having its own chopper, actually, two. I just don't think with the current mayor, and a commissioner who is his patsy, that this idea, pardon the pun,will fly.

While I'm all for the establishment of more jobs for pilots - I need something to do when I grow up after all - I'm uncertain that the benefits outweigh the risk and expense.

FACT: NYC has SEVEN helicopters including three that are equipped for search and rescue and firefighting (eight if you count the NYC DEP helicopter based at Stewart). Just because it says PD on the side is not enough of a reason to spend millions on more aircraft and the requisite costs to equip, train, maintain proficiency, and staff it/them. I defy you to find anyone who will donate a 12 MILLION dollar helicopter to the FD (or PD for that matter) of any city.

FACT: The FD helicopters won't be able to fly in bad weather any more than the PD ships will. Instrument weather is instrument weather.

FACT: If the city wants the FD to have better access to the aircraft (or a more expeditious response time) all the mayor has to do is issue an Executive Order as has been done in the past to hammer out interagency rivalries.

FACT: Search and rescue flying is a science - it is not something you just pick up and do. The NYPD has been providing this service to the NYC area for years and has developed pilots, divers, and crew chiefs with extensive experience and skill. This is not something that can just be duplicated overnight. Sure, you can put a helicopter in a hangar, but the reality is the crew completes the mission.

QUESTION: How many times does the FDNY have a 3 alarm (or greater) fire where an air recon battalion is requested/required? 3-4 times a month?

QUESTION: How many "large brush fires" does the FDNY respond to a year? 6? Not all brush fires are conducive to air suppression - if there's no water nearby or if the area is too densely populated, it is too hazardous to perform bambi-bucket operations. Nobody is going to hang a ton of water off the bottom of an aircraft and fly over people to get to a fire - there are safety guidelines about this issue.

QUESTION: How many times has the NYPD actually turned down a request from the FD for a recon flight? They NYPD isn't turning the FD down for SAR flights because that is their mission already.

So, we have maybe three-four calls per month where an FD helicopter would be utilized? At a cost of at least 12 million to purchase and at least 2.5 million a year to staff and fly, you're talking about a lot of money for MAYBE 3-4 calls per month.

It's not that the service ISN'T being provided. It's that the asset doesn't belong to the FD - to that I say WHO CARES??? NYC can improve the response times and coordination for a lot less than the expense of a new aviation unit.

In closing, I say if the SOMERS FD can use the NYPD for a firefighting operation, I think the FDNY can use them a whole lot more easily!!!

[SageVigiles 1,194]

What about creating a small FDNY detail of trained personnel who can assist in air recon that will be stationed at Floyd? One guy per shift?

OR, how about relocating the nearest Battallion Chief's office to a station CLOSER to Floyd Bennett Field? There has to be a firehouse closer than 22 minutes from the airfield...

[helicopper 1,050]

What about creating a small FDNY detail of trained personnel who can assist in air recon that will be stationed at Floyd? One guy per shift?

OR, how about relocating the nearest Battallion Chief's office to a station CLOSER to Floyd Bennett Field? There has to be a firehouse closer than 22 minutes from the airfield...

There you go making sense! Don't you see - the FDNY wants to buy a toy that they don't have. (Before everyone jumps on me for that statement read this: SARCASM and maybe a little cynicism!!!)

If response times and air recon are so critical, first of all they would have started doing it before 2002 and they would have embedded someone at aviation to respond immediately. Second of all, the fire is being fought without the aid of the "recon battallion". How urgent is their response in the first place? If the weather prohibits flight - they're not going to stop the fight, they're just going to do it without the air component.

For that matter, why does a Battallion Chief have to be the recon officer? Assign an officer (Captain or Lt.) to the Aviation Unit and voila, you're done.

And one more thing since I'm properly caffeinated and on a roll... I don't buy the "waiting for the helicopter to warm up" statement. It only takes a couple minutes to go through the start-up procedure and the NYPD is one of the few jobs that I've seen that actually makes their guys hustle to get in the air for a call.

Edited November 28, 2007 by Chris192

[JBE 328]

There are at least three battalions trained for Air Recon. the 33,43,and 58. The 33 is the closest, and even that is a bit of a ride to Floyd Bennett. If one isn't available, then the other goes, and vice versa. It gets rotated everyday. All of them are adjacent to the Belt Parkway. Although I said 22 minutes from Canarsie to Floyd Bennett isn't too big of a stretch, it depends on where they were when they got the ticket. To answer SR71's question, the closest firehouse to Floyd Bennett on the Brooklyn side of the Marine Parkway Bridge is E-309/TL-159, and there is barely enough room in the firehouse to fit the engine and truck.

[STAT213 332]

I think Chris is right on. NYC Emergency Services. If you look at the other cities with Fire Air Assets, what do they use them for? Mostly brush and transport. FDNY needs air assets for neither. So, what do they truly need them for? Aerial recon? Form a partnership with NYPD, or if you want be rogue about it...how 'bout Liberty Helicopters? As for using them for high rise firefighting...the logistics of trying to land an a/c on top of a burning building are HUGE. A You'd be lucky to be able to do it a company at a time, even with a light fuel load in the 412s.

It is an opportunity for the NYPD and FDNY to work together for sure. Question is: Will they and can they?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Interagency cooperation? I'll have none of it...

The brass of the FD and PD need to sit down and work out a plan that will work for everyone. Chris, I also thought about the assigning someone lower than a B/C to do air recon. A specially trained Captain, Lieutenant, or even an experienced firefighter could easily do reconaissance for the brothers on the ground. Other than that, I can't really come up with a tactical use for the "FDNY Aviation Unit."

[dadbo46 50]

Great discussion. P.O. Chris is absolutely correct.

The days of "I gotta have that toy...and lots of them" are over. Interoperability, sharing of services, coordination, consolidation and IMPROVING the capability to fulfill our sworn oath to protect life and property are the tools of good managers in the 21st century.

I suspect that the one example given in the news report was was an exception to the usual response.

Perhaps decentralize the NYPD aviation unit and create an additional "airport" for a couple of their helos or when building a new firehouse(s), take into consideration the location of the aircraft;

More is not necessarily better. Tactful and efficient use of available resoures is the smart way for managers to administer their departments.

Edited November 29, 2007 by dadbo46

[RWC130 594]

Executive Order

WCPD Helicopter will respond to all

FDNY 3rd Alarms or Special Calls.

[x635 4,066]

Excellent post, Chris!

Moral of the story is, if we can all learn to play nicely together, we could potentially have more resources at our disposal and possibly save more lives....plus save millions that could be spent on other things, such as staffing.

[Oswegowind 17]

Chris is right once again...cause he actually uses that pea size brain he has! Sometimes when we think about things without a presumed or to-be achieved outcome we are able to come up with the Correct Solution.

Although, I believe in the helicopters as being an important tool in both firefighting and policing, as well as EMSing (lol), I do not think there are more needed. Here in Westchester, 1 police and 1 medevac get the job done! In NYC they probably need more than 1 chopper in the air on occasion and with 7 available units that is more than enough!

Trust me, no other agency in Westchester needs a helo, especially not Harrison as was discussed years ago by some flim flam mayor guy! Even with the workload they are getting out of Yonkers on normal patrol, it ain't enough to keep em happy!