Update on Stamford Merger

[eckyphats 0]

obviously this shows that LRFD & TORFD can no longer provide adequate staffing for calls

engine arriving driver only to fires, taking utility vehicle to medicals when it used to be an engine, some of this situation is their own fault, some of it is not.

the writing is on the wall now, your not providing the service you once were to the citizens, do whats best for the public........

Edited October 8, 2008 by eckyphats

[sr71 1]

obviously the volunteer departments can no longer provide adequate staffing for calls

engine arriving driver only to fires, taking utility vehicle to medicals when it used to be an engine, some of this situation is their own fault, some of it is not.

the writing is on the wall now, your not providing the service you once were to the citizens, do whats best for the public........

I think that taking utilities for ems is not a bad idea, its like a B.L.S fly car, and if you have the proper equipment and the man power to deal with the call at hand.

[jcoppola 52]

I think that taking utilities for ems is not a bad idea, its like a B.L.S fly car, and if you have the proper equipment and the man power to deal with the call at hand.

Totally off the point. Adds nothing to the discussion.

[jcoppola 52]

This Long Ridge thing is just another horrible example of how badly things are going in Stamford. When will it end?

If 5 percent of what I am reading is accurate, where is the public outcry? Especially considering a home and property in the Long Ridge section of the city is worth millions and with no pricetag on lives in danger...

[kpelley 0]

This Long Ridge thing is just another horrible example of how badly things are going in Stamford. When will it end?

If 5 percent of what I am reading is accurate, where is the public outcry? Especially considering a home and property in the Long Ridge section of the city is worth millions and with no pricetag on lives in danger...

Joe, you know better the public could care less what goes on with the fire service.

[pjreilly 6]

This fire happened at 9 PM while the homeowners were all awake. What would have happened if it were a few hours later while people were asleep? 3 firefighters? Are you kidding me? Could effective search and rescue be performed? Don't think so. The writing has been on the wall for some time, but with the total loss of a home and a miserable response by LRFD, someone should be held accountable.

[Geppetto 31]

Fire at St. Cecilia school prompts an evacuation

Stamford Advocate 10/08/08

Jeff Morganteen

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/ci_10664736

Considering the "actual" resources in the current system, does anyone know if any city units responded?

[Guest REDDDOGG]

Fire at St. Cecilia school prompts an evacuation

Stamford Advocate 10/08/08

Jeff Morganteen

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/ci_10664736

Considering the "actual" resources in the current system, does anyone know if any city units responded?

Of course Stamford Fire and Rescue units responded but just like his buddy in Long Ridge, Springdale fire Chief Fahan refused to even mention Stamford units. E-7, E-8, and T-1 responded with unit 4.

Edited October 8, 2008 by REDDDOGG

[FD828 77]

I truely believe that the public is clueless most of the time. They see a big red truck show up to their call and that's all they see. Public education is what is needed. No more B.S. from the volunteers showing false staffing numbers and touting how "great and devoted" they all are. Public SAFETY is at stake here. It is time for the truth to come out, who is the one resposible to do that..... the city, the union? I just hope that the poor unfortunate home owners who watched their house burn and only saw 3 guys, have a great lawyer.

[FFPCogs 863]

The public is indeed clueless about most issues relating to the fire service. They call we show up. It is our job to educate them to ALL the facts...objectively....to move forward towards a reliable, long term solution that is in THEIR overall best interest.

That the initial manpower available for the Mill Spring fire was abysmal has given the VFDs of Stamford their one and only wake up call. I couldn't agree more that public safety is the absolute priority and as such a good hard reevaluation of the state of affairs is in order. As I've often stated, for continued volunteer coverage to be a viable or even acceptable alternative to career personnel then it is time for them to collectively to step up and devise a sound, practical and safe plan to ensure the necessary coverage...period. This time the VFDs by the grace of God and good fortune came upon a fire in which the occupants were safe....they absolutely CANNOT count on that being the norm.

If staffing or responding personnel numbers are being falsified it has to stop NOW!!!! The first step in solving a problem is admitting there is one. If one house is short the others must try to contribute to keep staffing levels to at least the bare minimum or by somehow redefining mutual aid agreements and responses to provide the necessary resources in personnel and equipment.

This morass just seems to get deeper and deeper, and the warning signs it seems are being ignored. The 5 VFD Chiefs need to sit down, burn the midnight oil and do whatever it takes to make sure this type of "lapse" does not occur again. You can rest assured "Big 5" Chiefs that if it does and God forbid there are civilian deaths/injuries you will all suffer the consequences and the volunteers of Stamford will be finished.

Cogs

[Geppetto 31]

The SAFER grant given to TOR would be better spent supporting a "STAMFORD" (citywide) Volunteer Division/Department rather than feathering their own district's nest.

Edited October 8, 2008 by Geppetto

[jcoppola 52]

The public is indeed clueless about most issues relating to the fire service. They call we show up. It is our job to educate them to ALL the facts...objectively....to move forward towards a reliable, long term solution that is in THEIR overall best interest.

That the initial manpower available for the Mill Spring fire was abysmal has given the VFDs of Stamford their one and only wake up call. I couldn't agree more that public safety is the absolute priority and as such a good hard reevaluation of the state of affairs is in order. As I've often stated, for continued volunteer coverage to be a viable or even acceptable alternative to career personnel then it is time for them to collectively to step up and devise a sound, practical and safe plan to ensure the necessary coverage...period. This time the VFDs by the grace of God and good fortune came upon a fire in which the occupants were safe....they absolutely CANNOT count on that being the norm.

If staffing or responding personnel numbers are being falsified it has to stop NOW!!!! The first step in solving a problem is admitting there is one. If one house is short the others must try to contribute to keep staffing levels to at least the bare minimum or by somehow redefining mutual aid agreements and responses to provide the necessary resources in personnel and equipment.

This morass just seems to get deeper and deeper, and the warning signs it seems are being ignored. The 5 VFD Chiefs need to sit down, burn the midnight oil and do whatever it takes to make sure this type of "lapse" does not occur again. You can rest assured "Big 5" Chiefs that if it does and God forbid there are civilian deaths/injuries you will all suffer the consequences and the volunteers of Stamford will be finished.

Cogs

Like a meeting of the "5 families"???

Not likely.

[sbvfd596 2]

Something needs to be done, before anything else happens. It doesn't make sense to me why they wouldn't just give it all up and let SFRD take over it's a little too late for "plan b".

PCFD

Didn't rural metro have a house fire about 10 years ago, that Greenwich had to go in for mutual aide? Also were there any similarities between the current situation in Stamford and the one that went on between rye brook and port chester?

[jcoppola 52]

Something needs to be done, before anything else happens. It doesn't make sense to me why they wouldn't just give it all up and let SFRD take over it's a little too late for "plan b".

PCFD

Didn't rural metro have a house fire about 10 years ago, that Greenwich had to go in for mutual aide? Also were there any similarities between the current situation in Stamford and the one that went on between rye brook and port chester?

I doubt there are any similarities with the Stamford situation and ANY department in the region. I truly believe there is no solution. Stamford Fire will have to live with the fact that there are many vollie members who are "dug-in" and have no plan for stepping aside. Most of it is now pride over anything else, including delivery of adequate services. The volunteers need to learn to live with the fact that they are not the same as the paid department who has a ton of human and equipment resources and they will not falter, the tax base says so at the very least. These departments have enough capital resources to keep their doors open and their bills paid for many years, albeit in a very limited, skeleton-crew capacity. They will continue to be a thorn in Mayor Malloy's side for as long as they can. My opinion on this has remained consistent...if the volunteers cannot do it, then they need to rely upon those in the city who can and like it or not, that is the SFRD, represented by, again, like it or not, Local 786. It is appearing that there is a resounding theme that it cannot be done in many cases. Sorry, thats just a fact.

[FD828 77]

Something needs to be done, before anything else happens. It doesn't make sense to me why they wouldn't just give it all up and let SFRD take over it's a little too late for "plan b".

PCFD

Didn't rural metro have a house fire about 10 years ago, that Greenwich had to go in for mutual aide? Also were there any similarities between the current situation in Stamford and the one that went on between rye brook and port chester?

Not for nothing.... You had the PC Volunteers who had nothing good to say about their own paid guys, teaming up against the Rual Metro FD. Greenwich had to come to that fire if I am not mistaken because a lot of departments REFUSED to go mutual aid. PC vollies went to that fire to stand on the sidelines and watch! Talk about putting lives at steak because of feelings! Public safety should have been the first priority then deal with the fact that Rual Metro was understaffed and a bunch of what did the vollies call them?.... oh yeah "scabs".

[junior215 0]

Maybe someone can correct me, but didn't E6 go to Long Ridge back in the 1990's because of a manpower "emergency." Would it be any easier to declare an emergency today with the recent events?

I just fear that the city will act too quickly again and more firefighters will be living in trailers "temporarily" because the vollies won't budge!!

Maybe we could build a temporary firehouse on the burnt out ruins of the house that just burnt down as a symbolic gesture. :angry:

[Guest REDDDOGG]

Maybe someone can correct me, but didn't E6 go to Long Ridge back in the 1990's because of a manpower "emergency." Would it be any easier to declare an emergency today with the recent events?

I just fear that the city will act too quickly again and more firefighters will be living in trailers "temporarily" because the vollies won't budge!!

Maybe we could build a temporary firehouse on the burnt out ruins of the house that just burnt down as a symbolic gesture. :angry:

Back then the "emergency" was not declared by the Mayor but by the then Chief of Long Ridge which gave the situation less power behind it because the Mayor never declared an "emergency situation" which he has the power to do in the charter that gets thrown into this subject so often.

After this recent fiasco should he declare an emergency..I think so and if the people in that district "REALLY KNEW' what their fire response was and still is they would say yes too.

And as far as housing there is an unused firehouse sitting on Roxbury RD that can be of use but we know how that is panning out...NOT GOOD!!! So instead of housing one or two fully manned fire companies in TOR 2 and having all there fun and running out of TOR 1 as a volunteer house they closed up shop, packed it with storage and let the tumbleweeds roll on by.

What a waste of taxpayers money....YES it was taxpayers money and donations that purchased the property so take note.

Makes you wonder....

Edited October 9, 2008 by REDDDOGG

[TSull 33]

I don't know if this means anything, but I have read this thread with interest for awhile now. I don't have a dog in the fight anymore but I have a more then a passing interest. I know it is not a perfect system, but has anyone ever looked at how Danbury FD is run? There is a city with 6 career engines (officer/2 FFs on each), a career truck ( officer/3 ffs), and a chief on duty. The city is divided into 12 districts, with each district having a volunteer company in it. At one point there were 17 engines in the city(5 career/12volunteer). When there is an alarm, 2-3 career engines, the career truck, the chief, and the volunteer company which district it is in is dispatched (sometimes 2 volunteer companies are dispatched). The volunteers respond as a company (engine, tanker, or lighting/air) and fall under the I.C. Some of the volunteers have specialized (water source or lighting/air) to make themselves more of an asset to operations. The volunteers receive some funding from the city budget but rely on different fundraisers to augment what they receive. The volunteers also have to meet the training requirements set forth by the Danbury FD and administered by the career training officer. I am not saying it is a perfect system but it seems to make a little sense. I am sure some will say that without the volunteers the career dept. in Danbury would be larger and some will say that the volunteers should be used more. All I am wondering is if the Danbury system has ever been examined and if it could be applied to what is going on in Stamford.

[jcoppola 52]

Tim, I appreciate your comments and they are good, but don't kid yourself, there is no love affair going on between the Danbury career and volunteer staffs. I think in thier case, the career chief is trying really hard to make them an assett because there are so many of them. In fact, they are being trained by the career staff training division. Would the Stamford volunteers accept training from the SFRD? I think not, in that most of them are now considered rival organizations. I have said it once and I will continue to say it...career and volunteer in Stamford will NEVER peacefully co-exist. In the case of Stamford, there are apparently not that many volunteers anymore, and the response to Long Ridge shows a case in point.

I am sure many of these comments are going to peeve some people, but they are correct and I would not post them if I did not believe them.

[FD828 77]

"The volunteers respond as a company (engine, tanker, or lighting/air) and fall under the I.C."

Here is the problem, there are too many Chiefs and nobody is going to give up "control".

[Guest Sqd47]

Tim, I appreciate your comments and they are good, but don't kid yourself, there is no love affair going on between the Danbury career and volunteer staffs. I think in thier case, the career chief is trying really hard to make them an assett because there are so many of them. In fact, they are being trained by the career staff training division. Would the Stamford volunteers accept training from the SFRD? I think not, in that most of them are now considered rival organizations. I have said it once and I will continue to say it...career and volunteer in Stamford will NEVER peacefully co-exist. In the case of Stamford, there are apparently not that many volunteers anymore, and the response to Long Ridge shows a case in point.

I am sure many of these comments are going to peeve some people, but they are correct and I would not post them if I did not believe them.

Joe, take a minute and think *why* they are considered rival organizations. Where was this "rival organizations" language first used, and by whom?

Now, don't take my comment the wrong way because I am all for volunteers and career firefighters being able to work together harmoniously.

Would I accept training from SFRD? Certainly! I like learning. I like training. I like training HARD, and have always been a proponent for this. We have trained with SFRD before, and I for one would like to see us doing it again. I think we could both benefit and learn from each other. Training together makes us work better together when we are at an incident.

One last thing. Call it what you want, but please stop grouping all the volunteers in Stamford together under one big umbrella. There are 5 distinct departments, with very different characterisitics and circumstances.

Pat Kilbride

The opinions expressed here are mine, and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect the views of any other person, department, or entity.

[Geppetto 31]

I would think that IF the powers that be, Chiefs, Directors, Mayors, etc made it clear that SFRD was mandated to train the volunteers, (through whatever resolution, contract or whatever it took), then it would be done; regardless of the union's position. The union personnel are firefighter's first, and they have to take orders just like everybody else. Would they want something for it? I'm sure they would and ... (I'm sure some incentives could be given to them as well.)

The term "rival organization" comes from the IAFF By-Laws, and it is my understanding that several of the Stamford volunteer companies committed acts which the union did not find in their interests. (Lawsuits, forced layoffs etc.) This then "forced the hand" and caused them to be labelled with that title. It is also my understanding the the city adminstration has never labelled any firefighting unit as rival, probably because there is no one agency responsible for fire protection throughout the city.

Unfortunately, as each incident unfolds, it is becoming apparent that there is going to be less and less volunteers to train. I can not see the union losing through attrition.

[pjreilly 6]

I can tell you that it is a FACT that the Glenbrook volunteers have and still train with members of SFRD. Joe I believe you have hit the nail on the head when you said the volunteers are dug in due to PRIDE. In my humble opinion, which may mean nothing, I believe it is time to swallow the pride, and do whats RIGHT. TSULL good to see you bro.

[Guest Sqd47]

I would think that IF the powers that be, Chiefs, Directors, Mayors, etc made it clear that SFRD was mandated to train the volunteers, (through whatever resolution, contract or whatever it took), then it would be done; regardless of the union's position. The union personnel are firefighter's first, and they have to take orders just like everybody else. Would they want something for it? I'm sure they would and ... (I'm sure some incentives could be given to them as well.)

I would be happy to see volunteers and SFRD members training together. I think it is important, especially for those members working in the companies that are most frequently dispatched as mutual aid units, to become familiar with each other and our rigs and equipment. Let's face it, sooner or later there is going to be a working fire and we will all be better off having trained together before hand. Now let me say that I am not advocating turning all our training over to SFRD, that is a real increase in workload for the SFRD training division, and there are some very well qualified instructors in the volunteer ranks.

The term "rival organization" comes from the IAFF By-Laws, and it is my understanding that several of the Stamford volunteer companies committed acts which the union did not find in their interests. (Lawsuits, forced layoffs etc.) This then "forced the hand" and caused them to be labelled with that title. It is also my understanding the the city adminstration has never labelled any firefighting unit as rival, probably because there is no one agency responsible for fire protection throughout the city.

To be fair here, I think that there have been acts committed that several of the Stamford volunteer companies did not find in *their* best interests. It's a two-way street here.

[jcoppola 52]

Joe, take a minute and think *why* they are considered rival organizations. Where was this "rival organizations" language first used, and by whom?

Now, don't take my comment the wrong way because I am all for volunteers and career firefighters being able to work together harmoniously.

Would I accept training from SFRD? Certainly! I like learning. I like training. I like training HARD, and have always been a proponent for this. We have trained with SFRD before, and I for one would like to see us doing it again. I think we could both benefit and learn from each other. Training together makes us work better together when we are at an incident.

One last thing. Call it what you want, but please stop grouping all the volunteers in Stamford together under one big umbrella. There are 5 distinct departments, with very different characterisitics and circumstances.

Pat Kilbride

The opinions expressed here are mine, and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect the views of any other person, department, or entity.

No problem Pat, but keep in mind that you are all a similar resource (volunteers) and like it or not, your actions reflect on one another and preception is going to be based on those actions.

You speak for yourself in the comments about training and I know them to be true based on what I know about you. But that is not a general consenus among all the services and you know it.

Joe

[FFPCogs 863]

Due to the fact I'm "in transit" moving back to Stamford I haven't had steady internet for a couple of weeks..seems I've been missing the show .

There is STILL time to have a "Big 5" sit down (yeah Joe "family style" like the Cosa Nostra ) and work out an INTERIM program to ensure volunteer coverage with the current SFRD response. But this is a TEMPORARY solution at best. For long term stability and success there must be a willingness to look beyond what is in place now and develop and implement programs and policies that will ensure the necessary staffing and resources are ALWAYS available. Now if the VFDs can't meet that need, than there is no other choice....firefighting in Stamford will be the sole domain of the SFRD. Volunteers may remain, but under the direction and control of the SFRD. On the other hand, if the VFDs can work through their petty differences and more importantly their operational, administrative and financial divisions, there is NO reason why a more effective and reliable firefighting force wouldn't emerge.

I just have to say once again...fingerpointing and Monday morning quaterbacking does ABSOLUTELY nothing to help. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to identify the problems. What IS required is professional "advice" on the part of those who post here and a desire to compromise to achieve an outcome in EVERYONE'S best interest.

I am staunchly in favor of a Stamford Volunteer Fire Dept comprised of the current Big 5, that is capable of fulfilling the needs of the residents of their districts. I have offered up ideas to that effect and sincerely hope to see such an outcome. But I am no fool (believe it or not) and realize that there are many other avenues yet to be explored which may or may not be the right "fit". The past is just that...the past..all we can do is LEARN from yesterday, we can't change it..so why not put eyes forward for the citizens of Stamford?

Cogs

[Geppetto 31]

There has been some recent interesting correspondence between the City and the volunteer fire companies. I am not sure if all of it has to do with the "still memory-fresh" Long Ridge fire, but it seems that that may have been the catalyst.

http://www.boardofreps.org/content/92031/92034/default.aspx

Edited October 16, 2008 by Geppetto

[FFPCogs 863]

Geppetto,

Thank you for the link, some very interesting reading there.

All:

It appears that toes are being stepped on, and there are times when no definitive protocols are either in place or more likely being followed regarding incident command where SFRD and VFD personnel are working together. Working together is a two way street, and to my mind a paycheck does not in and of itself automatically guarantee incident command to Stamford's "professional" fire officers when they respond into what are still independent jurisdictions. The OIC should be the highest ranking officer of that jurisdiction, until such time as command is relinquished or no VFD officers are on scene. It appears from the letters that this is not always the case...at least from the point of view of some. But the SFRD officers are not the sole cause of these breakdowns of the ICS...like I stated earlier, working together is a two way street. The VFDs should transfer command when the situation requires it..such as when a 3 or 4 year member who is 2nd LT is the IC and you have a more seasoned and experienced SFRD officer on scene or some such similar situation. This is common sense..which I must say has become the most glaring casualty of this whole mess.

Like it or not as it now stands (to my understanding), the VFDs and the SFRD are going to be working alongside each other regularly. To ensure that "things" move along smoothly the parameters stipulated and agreed to by each must be respected and more importantly followed. I truly hope that all have moved beyond the fourth grade and can act as the professionals they claim to be.

As for Mr. Bs letter,

Well he has explained quite well the shortcomings of that incident as he understood them. All FFs in Stamford should look at these shortcomings and work to correct them in whatever capacity they can.....under the conditions that NOW exist. Here again as I stated in an earlier posting, identifying problems (real, percieved or potential) is a great first step...but just that... a FIRST STEP. The important thing is what steps follow. As FFs in Stamford paid or volunteer you are all your brothers keeper on scene...the less friction and miscommunication the better for ALL your sakes.

Lose the attitudes and gain the respect you all deserve for what you do in this community.

Cogs

[jcoppola 52]

There has been some recent interesting correspondence between the City and the volunteer fire companies. I am not sure if all of it has to do with the "still memory-fresh" Long Ridge fire, but it seems that that may have been the catalyst.

http://www.boardofreps.org/content/92031/92034/default.aspx

Great reading, thanks for posting the links. I do not intend to sound sarcastic, but I think this is more paid vs. volunteer and who is more capable ideology. I think we have learned the hard way what needs to be done in North Stamford. This continues to be a never-ending pissing match with the true loser being the taxpaying public.

Sending a chief away from a mutual aid department stinks of "turf-war"!!! Who in their right mind would turn away the experience of a staff of chiefs from a quite capable mutual aid department? And furthermore, if they have personnel on scene and operating, I think they have plenty of jurisdiction weather the volunteer chief likes it or not. It seems that the situation in North Stamford is pretty desperate, and if I and a crew were operating there, I would want one of my bosses to be there looking over matters as well.

Again, one word..UNBELIEVABLE...that the mayor would tolerate this breach of public safety.

Joe

[Geppetto 31]

House fire ignites debate

By Jeff Morganteen Staff Writer - Stamford Advocate

10/17/2008

STAMFORD - Earlier this month, Tom Molen hosted a dinner party for about 15 friends at his Mill Spring Lane home, a large modern house with gray wood siding on a North Stamford cul-de-sac. ...

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/ci_10743567