Proposed Amendment to State GML on fire district amendments

[Monty 35]

I received an interesting letter template from FASNY recently to oppose S6806/A9806 Part U. I've tried finding this online but can find no mention of it other than this document.

It seems that this proposal would make it easier for Town boards to ammend fire districts. Currently consolidation issues require alarge number of taxpayers to file a petition. This change would require a petition of at least 10% of taxpayers. (Who defines the present 'large' number is it 5 thousand? Or 99%? or what?)

The other part is about shifting control of local volunteer companies to Town boards - what this really means I don't know - and can't find any specifics online. the template then goes on to say that volunteers in NY save taxpayers roughly $7 billion per year.

To me the first option seems progressive - especially as we keep discussing consolidation and regionalization. As for the second issue I feel that I don't have enough information to make up my mind.

As mentioned before, FASNY is against both of these proposals

Curious whether anyone else has any more details or information on this?

Monty.

[lad12derff 283]

- the template then goes on to say that volunteers in NY save taxpayers roughly $7 billion per year.

Monty.

What did it cost taxpayers with lower ISO ratings and higher insurance?

Edited March 22, 2008 by lad12derff

[Bnechis 3,961]

I received an interesting letter template from FASNY recently............. the template then goes on to say that volunteers in NY save taxpayers roughly $7 billion per year.

Its amazing to me that FASNY continues to publish its $7 billion lie.

The FASNY estimated that volunteer fire departments in NYS provide annual cost savings of $7.1 billion, was comprised of $2.8 billion in annual operating costs of paid departments to replace volunteers and $4.3 billion in the total cost for structures and equipment.

a) FASNY assumes that the $4.3 billion for apparatus and stations will need total replacement. In other words all of the vol. rigs and stations would sit empty and all new stations and rigs would be purchased and built to replace them. This is beyond logic.

So instead of $7 Billion. We are now talking $2.8 billion (wow I just saved the taxpayers of NYS $4.2 Billion)

The annual cost savings of $2.8 billion is driven largely by the wages and benefits presumed to be paid to what FASNY estimates is an additional 38,537 career firefighters. This amount is only as accurate as the estimate of the number of additional paid firefighters that would be required to replace volunteers.

FASNY's study admits that if the "Delaware Approach" were applied to NYS, the result would be an additional 20,900 paid firefighters needed in NYS in areas currently covered by volunteers. The "Delaware Approach" is over $1 billion less then FASNY's original estimate. If the "Pennsylvania Approach" were applied to NYS an additional 17,050 career firefighters would be needed. This approach reduces FASNY's annual $2.2 billion estimate to $973 million.

So FASNY's $7 Billion is actually $973 million.

The $973 million is based on 17,050 additional career ff's. But ISO calculations require only 1 career for every 3 volunteers so the number may actually be 12,846.

This figure does not take into account that the volunteer fire service has a budget that would be used to cover some of this cost. It assumes that what ever money is currently spent for volunteer benefits including 2% funds would not be available to reduce the $973 million. An additional cost thatis not considered is the salary that is paid to "housemen" (1,800 housemen just on Long Island) this money could go toward reducing the $973 million.

Currently $319 million in tax money is spent supporting the volunteer depts on Long Island alone.

FASNY's study admits that its study does not consider that current tax dollars are used to support many if not most VFD's in NYS.

FASNY also does not take into account that ISO ratings would improve in many parts of the state thus saving property owners $100's of millions.

FASNY's proudly states VFD's save NYS taxpayers $7 Billion, when its under $654 million (reduce this number by the 2% funds and the Fire Tax in NYS north of NYC). Then add the property insurance savings and it maybe more expensive to have VFD's than a series of multi county career based fire depts.

Note: I am not suggesting getting rid of VFD's................just that FASNY needs to stop the argument that VFD's save $$.

Edited March 23, 2008 by DOC22

[lad12derff 283]

So basically what Barry is saying is that vollies cost more to have than career firefighters. I find that very interesting. THIS IS NOT A VOLLIE BASH SO PLEASE DON"T SEND ME IM'S

[SteveOFD 176]

Monty,

We got that memo for the Firehouse also, although I really did not look at it. The Bill numbers you have listed reference a budget bill. I looked them up at New York State Legislature - Bills.

I did a word search at the above link for "Fire" and came across an interesting proposed bill. Bill numbers A6547/S9105 would amend the Insurance Law to provide five percent of the fire insurance premium taxes (two percent fund?) to be paid to the treasurer of the NYS Professional Firefighters Association. The amount paid to FASNY for the support of the Firemen's Home in Hudson, NY would decrease to five percent from the current ten percent.

[John Meeker Jr 0]

there are many volunteer fire departments that own their own equipment and bill their services annually to the town. These departments will keep their equipment and buildings and will either have to bid for the work or sell of their posessions, but there will be a cost to replace both the equipment and buildings if they are to be replaced.

Example: Somers Fire District owns and operates all the grounds and buildings for the people of Somers. Should the town disband the district the town retains the buildings and equipment. This could then be used to estalish paid fire houses owned by the town.

Carmel Fire Department on the other hand personally owns its building and most of the equipment and contracts with the Carmel Fire District to provide a service. If the town could do away with the Fire District, the Carmel Fire Department still owns the property and the equipment but now must solicit the town for funding if it wants to keep doing the job.

[JFLYNN 681]

there are many volunteer fire departments that own their own equipment and bill their services annually to the town. These departments will keep their equipment and buildings and will either have to bid for the work or sell of their posessions, but there will be a cost to replace both the equipment and buildings if they are to be replaced.

Example: Somers Fire District owns and operates all the grounds and buildings for the people of Somers. Should the town disband the district the town retains the buildings and equipment. This could then be used to estalish paid fire houses owned by the town.

Carmel Fire Department on the other hand personally owns its building and most of the equipment and contracts with the Carmel Fire District to provide a service. If the town could do away with the Fire District, the Carmel Fire Department still owns the property and the equipment but now must solicit the town for funding if it wants to keep doing the job.

But of course if the town ever did do away with the Fire District, the volunteer department which technically owns the buildings and equipment would donate it back to the residents from whom came the funds to buy the building and equipment in the first place...right?

After all, the volunteers only want to SERVE their residents, they are not volunteering in order to receive any personal gain or possession...right?

[ex-commish 490]

Do towns want to take over fire districts? Do they want the added responsiblity? Another line in the budget when they like all other levels of government are looking to downsize? Just wondering.

[Bnechis 3,961]

way to turn this into a career / volly thread...congrats

Do any of the contracted companies that use local taxes have career ff's? Most, if any do not have career ff's.

If the state disolves them all the equipment and stations which was bought with taxmoney or public donations will sit idol unless they donate them back to the public that paid for it in the 1st place. THis would also result in increased tax to duplicate equipment that already exists but is sitting idol.

So for the most part since fire protection districts do not have career ff's you stated this is now a career volly thread, when for this example its a private company with vol vs. the best interest of the taxpayers, regardless of weather they continue to use vol. ff's.

Actually what turns it into a career / volly thread is this:

"I did a word search at the above link for "Fire" and came across an interesting proposed bill. Bill numbers A6547/S9105 would amend the Insurance Law to provide five percent of the fire insurance premium taxes (two percent fund?) to be paid to the treasurer of the NYS Professional Firefighters Association. The amount paid to FASNY for the support of the Firemen's Home in Hudson, NY would decrease to five percent from the current ten percent."

The NYSPFFA has been fighting FASNY for years on this. The law requires "all members who provide fire protection recieve equal benefits" but FASNY has been getting millions ($7 million last year) towards the "home" and NYSPFFA has recieved $0.

What happened to "equal benefits"?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Do towns want to take over fire districts? Do they want the added responsiblity? Another line in the budget when they like all other levels of government are looking to downsize? Just wondering.

In general no.

The state wants to eliminate as many levels of government as it can. One way to do it is to get rid of "districts" (fire, school, sewer, water, etc.).

It may still cause downsizing, (particularly in towns with multiple districts, ie. 4 fire districts in a town that each have a tower ladder may only need 2 if its 1 dept., saving $2M in replacement cost).

Other downsizing/savings is if town has an in-house attorney (corp. counsel) and each district also retains one, maybe they inhouse can double up and reduce the cost. Same for maintenance, IT, accounting, and other services.

[ja3kfd 34]

Well that would effect all the Districts in westchester both paid and volunteer correct? Are there any paid Depts that do not have Commisioners? I know there are some Volunteer that have Commisioners but they are not the funding agent still the town Board does.

Westcheter 2000 called for some of this did it not?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Well that would effect all the Districts in westchester both paid and volunteer correct?

Yep

Are there any paid Depts that do not have Commisioners?

The 4 city's have an appointed (not elected board) "commissioner" they use the term, but they serve in a diffent role. Mt. Vernon, New Rochelle, White Plains, Yonkers. But as cities they are not affected by this law.

Also Larchmont, Scarsdale and the Pelham's dont they answer to the village board

I know there are some Volunteer that have Commisioners but they are not the funding agent still the town Board does.

Westcheter 2000 called for some of this did it not?

Basically. This is much broader than Westchester 2000.

In Great Britton they had over 500 depts prior to WWII. They consolidated for the war. And stayed that way. Now they run about 50 depts to cover England, Scotland & Wales.

Wow we should have done this under Westchester 1945 and then we would not have to deal with it now.

[SteveOFD 176]

Do towns want to take over fire districts? Do they want the added responsiblity? Another line in the budget when they like all other levels of government are looking to downsize? Just wondering.

In order for Towns to take over Fire Districts would take an amendment to the NYS Town Law. When I took Intro to Fire Officer & Fire Officer 1 last year, the instructor pointed out to us that the NY State Town Law does not have a provision for Towns in NY State to form their own municipal Fire Departments. Villages can form their own municipal Fire Departments, but Towns can only form Fire Districts.

[Bnechis 3,961]

In order for Towns to take over Fire Districts would take an amendment to the NYS Town Law. When I took Intro to Fire Officer & Fire Officer 1 last year, the instructor pointed out to us that the NY State Town Law does not have a provision for Towns in NY State to form their own municipal Fire Departments. Villages can form their own municipal Fire Departments, but Towns can only form Fire Districts.

This is what the State is proposing. To change the law.

Its not the 1st Time and it wont be the last unless it passes.

The state is also interested in a Calf. version of proposition 13 or Mass prop 2 1/2. As a way to "control" property tax increases. The public thinks this will solve the high property taxes.

If you look at both CA & MA you will see it has forced merging depts in CA (Lots of County "Authorities") and 1 & 2 man rigs in MA. When that goes thru in NY (and it will go thru maybe nt this year, but its coming) it will hurt every FD that does not reorganize. New Rochelle was the only municipality in NYS to experience this (mandated by the state for 14 years) and every year we saw cuts in city services and delays in capital projects (new rigs, repairing stations, etc.)

[mdm911 5]

I agree 100% with passing this law. I was researching earlier today if the Town of Poughkeepsie could have a fire department. Currently there are three separate fire districts that serve the 42,000+ people. I found in the State of New York Local Town Law, that fire protection is not the responsibility of a town and a town cannot provide this service. The service must be provided by a separate fire district. The town is responsible to provide police protection, why not fire protection?

I am also in support of a Town of Poughkeepsie Fire Department, by merging the Fairview Fire District, Arlington Fire District and New Hamburgh Fire District, into one large combination department. Are people from the area/departments for this or against this?

[Bnechis 3,961]

I am also in support of a Town of Poughkeepsie Fire Department, by merging the Fairview Fire District, Arlington Fire District and New Hamburgh Fire District, into one large combination department. Are people from the area/departments for this or against this?

I am for merging if it provides better fire protection and/or can save $$$ without reducing the level of protection.

I am against being forced into it by Albany. If the town does not want it, it may be worst than what we have now. Depts need to do this because it is the best way to proceed.

[firemoose827 324]

This figure does not take into account that the volunteer fire service has a budget that would be used to cover some of this cost. It assumes that what ever money is currently spent for volunteer benefits including 2% funds would not be available to reduce the $973 million. An additional cost thatis not considered is the salary that is paid to "housemen" (1,800 housemen just on Long Island) this money could go toward reducing the $973 million.

Just a quick question for you sir ( please, Im using Sir here in a respectful way because I respect you and your opinions here and learn a lot from them!!! , that and you are an officer which I respect also.)

In my old dept in Long Island, we had a houseman, but he was paid as a Village Highway Dept employee. He was expected to clean the firehouse daily, answer the phones and dispatch the dept to calls but received no money from the dept itself. Is this still considered as a dept cost? Im just curious to know, because you brought up great points.

Thanks!

Moose

[helicopper 1,050]

Do towns want to take over fire districts? Do they want the added responsiblity? Another line in the budget when they like all other levels of government are looking to downsize? Just wondering.

Some may want to, some may want nothing at all to do with it. That's the point - Villages/Cities can do it, why not towns? This gives towns the option. If they can do it more efficiently or cost-effectively, shouldn't they have the authority to do so? [opinion] This does nothing but level the playing field and give towns the same authority that villages and cities already have. [/opinion]

As for the pricetag, it is typical manipulation of statistics to scare people into believing what they want. Sure, there may be costs associated with such a change but there is no requirement to create full-time paid personnel in the legislation. The town could choose to simply administer the same type of department that has always exists but under their control and responsibility.

I'd be interested in seeing an objective/unbiased accounting of what the actual costs might be.

Ironically, the "Section U" that is referred to is "intentionally omitted" from the legislative search engine. Go figure!

[ex-commish 490]

Perhaps someone can confirm this but I recieved an e-mail today telling me that the consolidation bill was shot down by both the house and senate.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Just a quick question for you sir ( please, Im using Sir here in a respectful way because I respect you and your opinions here and learn a lot from them!!! , that and you are an officer which I respect also.)

In my old dept in Long Island, we had a houseman, but he was paid as a Village Highway Dept employee. He was expected to clean the firehouse daily, answer the phones and dispatch the dept to calls but received no money from the dept itself. Is this still considered as a dept cost? Im just curious to know, because you brought up great points. Thanks! Moose

Thank You

Before I can answer I need more info. Is this dept a municipal village dept., a fire protection district (ind. company that contracts with the village) or a fire district?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Perhaps someone can confirm this but I recieved an e-mail today telling me that the consolidation bill was shot down by both the house and senate.

Well the bill is the state budget bill. So it would not be a suprise if the state decided not to have a budget this year....

Only 8 days till the state deadline....................and counting

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Perhaps someone can confirm this but I recieved an e-mail today telling me that the consolidation bill was shot down by both the house and senate.

Yes it is out for this year.

[Monty 35]

Perhaps someone can confirm this but I recieved an e-mail today telling me that the consolidation bill was shot down by both the house and senate.

I just saw a link from the NYS Association of Fire Chiefs.

In it, is this interesting quote attributed to the Senate's budget resolution

“the Senate rejects the Executive’s proposal to enact the recommendations of the Commission on Local Government Efficiency and

Competitiveness and alternatively defers acceptance and/or rejection of the initial recommendations until the Commission has issued its final report on April 15,2008.”

The document from NYSAFC also states the assembly have dropped it from their budget bills. It goes on to say that if you contacted your legislator to oppose this - then contact them to keep up the pressure as it could come back in the negotiations.

It will be interesting to see what the Commission presents in their final report and if it is just another case of lots of money being spent on a report that just gets put on the shelf ....

Monty.