Why are we so special?

[abaduck 123]

Just for s**** and giggles, with no really serious intent on my part, I recently started looking at what it takes to get hired as a career guy these days... and was gob smacked by what I found.

Let's play 'let's pretend'. Let's pretend I've been a career guy for... say 15 years. In... let's say Chicago. I've risen the ranks, I'm captain of a rescue company, and everyone who's ever bossed me or worked for me says I'm the best. I'm God's gift to firefighting.

So my wife gets the kind of job offer you can't refuse, and I hand in my papers and we move to New York. So obviously I want to get hired as a firefighter again. What do I find? FDNY - sorry, you're too old. Yonkers are testing soon... sorry, too old. OK OK, let's work down... maybe the County test for the towns and villages? No dice, they don't test again until... 2011?

What the <beep> is this all about? Whose brilliant idea was this? 2011??? If the candidate is good, test him/her immediately and consider them for any appropriate position that opens up, on merit.

I honestly don't understand what this is trying to achieve... in any other profession, people would be falling over themselves to hire an experienced guy with an outstanding track record. Why are we so special? Or have I got it totally wrong? Do these age limits and testing requirements only apply to rookies with no previous fire service experience? And even for rookies, what's the point?

Mike

Edited April 21, 2008 by moosecfd368

[DFD801 0]

Getting on the job is extremely competitive no matter where you go and it usually takes most of us years of testing and waiting. Hiring is done through civil service testing... thats the law and thats the fairest way to do it. Plus each department can set their own standards like age limits and such because thats the type of recruit they want to bring in. They are going to spend a lot of time and money to train a new firefighter and they want him to put in a full career. Honestly bro, your scenario is unrealistic. I highly doubt a 15 year veteran, rescue company captain is going to leave his job. Once you earn a position, you keep it, period. But if such a scenario did happen, that captain would know that there's a slim to none chance he'll get on the job again, regardless of his past.

Just for s**** and giggles, with no really serious intent on my part, I recently started looking at what it takes to get hired as a career guy these days... and was gobsmacked by what I found.

Let's play 'let's pretend'. Let's pretend I've been a career guy for... say 15 years. In... let's say Chicago. I've risen the ranks, I'm captain of a rescue company, and everyone who's ever bossed me or worked for me says I'm the best. I'm God's gift to firefighting.

So my wife gets the kind of job offer you can't refuse, and I hand in my papers and we move to New York. So obviously I want to get hired as a firefighter again. What do I find? FDNY - sorry, you're too old. Yonkers are testing soon... sorry, too old. OK OK, let's work down... maybe the County test for the towns and villages? No dice, they don't test again until... 2011?

What the <beep> is this all about? Whose brilliant idea was this? 2011??? If the candidate is good, test him/her immediately and consider them for any appropriate position that opens up, on merit.

I honestly don't understand what this is trying to achieve... in any other profession, people would be falling over themselves to hire an experienced guy with an outstanding track record. Why are we so special? Or have I got it totally wrong? Do these age limits and testing requirements only apply to rookies with no previous fire service experience? And even for rookies, what's the point?

Mike

Edited April 21, 2008 by moosecfd368

[jcoppola 52]

2 words...CIVIL SERVICE.

It makes no difference who you are or where you came from. You earn the job and come in as a probie. You show your abilities through job performance and the members will show trust in you and respect to you. You know what I say to the captain who comes from Chicago or anywhere else? Here is your riding position, here is your mop and here is the list of deli's that we use for lunch, you do the job of a probie if you are new to us, just like everyone else did before you. It is an insult to the dedication of all probies who did all the crap work until they put some time in and showed they deserve the respect of the crew.

Getting in FDNY or anywhere else without following the usual process is a joke. Don't leave your original job if you don't want to start over again!

Joe

[abaduck 123]

Think I should probably have put on my flameproof pants before starting this one... guys, I hear what you're saying. Of course entry is competitive - it's the same in many parts of the world, FF is seen as a 'good job'. And I kinda see where you're coming from. I just don't understand why it has to be this way. I was recently reading the blog of the chief of a large British 'department' (what we call a department, they call a brigade). He was writing about the selection process he used when hiring a senior officer... the position was advertised, and any firefighter with the requisite rank and experience could apply, from *anywhere in the country*. Final selection was based on interviews and various simulated scenarios. The best man who applied got the job, as it bloody well should be, and he moved his family 400 miles to take it. This is absolutely routine and normal in the UK, I understand; guys transfer from one department to another during their careers - because they want to go for a promotion, or they want to move.

Don't you consider it to be showing disrespect to our hypothetical Brother in Chicago to say he's finished if he leaves that job? If FDNY have an opening for a captain rank, why shouldn't his application be considered along with everyone else's?

It's not a common scenario, but it can happen - my wife earns ten times what I earned, if I was a career guy I would damn well follow the money and go where her job took her. Families sometimes HAVE to move for any number of reasons, but from your replies there seems to be a strong mindset, intentional or otherwise, against career firefighters being able to transfer from one department to another, and I'm struggling to understand why that should be. What end does it serve?

Edited April 18, 2008 by abaduck

[SageVigiles 1,194]

However, that Rescue Captain from Chicago could have a good shot at becoming a paid fire chief in a town in CT where they have competitive Chief's exams...

[LTNRFD 266]

There are departments in other parts of the country that you could walk in to the personnel office and have a job in less then a month. Florida was like that back in the 80's. If you had the training, you had a job. Most people that wanted to get on the job in Florida took their firefighters training on their own. They would give you a civil service test on the spot, just for you, if they had openings that needed to be filled.

I was looking for a job in Florida back in the early 80's because it was hard to get on up here in N.Y. If you took the training at the community colleges on your own, you could then go to a fire district and if your timing was right walk away with a job.

After I completed my training and became a Florida certified firefighter I was notified that I was very high on the City of New Rochelle's list. So I decided not to continue looking in Florida. Over the next 2-3 months, after deciding not to look further in Florida, I was contacted by West Palm Beach fire dept, Del Trail fire dist., and a department in the Gainsville area that were in need to fill positions A.S.A.P. and wanted me to interview. These departments contacted me, I had not previously had any contact with them. They must have gotten my name from the state of Florida.

These are all civil service positions

There are also departments that will hire you as a department exec officer, which is a non civil service position.

Every area in the country has different rules for what can and can not be done in the hiring process. Are they fair? I guess it depends on what your situation is. The pretend captain from the windy city might not have any problems getting a job in Florida, but I don't see much happening in New york.

[jcoppola 52]

Don't you consider it to be showing disrespect to our hypothetical Brother in Chicago to say he's finished if he leaves that job? If FDNY have an opening for a captain rank, why shouldn't his application be considered along with everyone else's?

Outright ridiculous. And, an insult to the many brothers who have broke their ass studying for a promotion and spent their entire career gaining respect of their peers. To have someone come in off the street with an equal rank and give them a job in that rank is absolutely the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard. Who in their right mind would trust them? Our job is built on reliance on your brothers and your officer to be each others keeper and we all know how long that takes to establish. Most departments have a requirement that you serve in a certain rank for a certain time before you can take a promotional exam for the next level on the ladder. Guys wait years and study for years to be able to compete. Again, totally absurd.

And, for the record, my wife has earning potential that I will never have. A few years ago she was offered her job in Cincinnatti, since thats where her company was moving. You know what? It was not even entertained, because we both know how lucky I am an how hard it would be for me to find the same deal in another state. We have no regrets.

[lad12derff 283]

Why is any one still talking about this stupid topic? It never ceases to amaze me of the stupitity that goes on with this web site. Maybe that is the reason I keep coming back.

THIS IS A MODERATOR WARNING.

This type of post is what is called "Not Constructive" and it seems there is a need to educate the members of this site in what is constructive and what is not. THIS, is not constructive in any way and is a pointless bash at the topic starter. He has a right to discuss whatever he wants to discuss, as do you as long as its clean and respectful. You dont like the topic than ignore it, there is no need for posts like this one.

Edited April 21, 2008 by moosecfd368
Non Constructive Post

[abaduck 123]

Outright ridiculous. And, an insult to the many brothers who have broke their a** studying for a promotion and spent their entire career gaining respect of their peers. To have someone come in off the street with an equal rank and give them a job in that rank is absolutely the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard. Who in their right mind would trust them? Our job is built on reliance on your brothers and your officer to be each others keeper and we all know how long that takes to establish. Most departments have a requirement that you serve in a certain rank for a certain time before you can take a promotional exam for the next level on the ladder. Guys wait years and study for years to be able to compete. Again, totally absurd.

Ya know, reading your reply and the reply from LTNRFD, I have to wonder are we talking about the same profession? You see how a guy could get confused!

I take your point entirely, JC - you don't seem to have taken mine at all. Our hypothetical rescue captain from Chicago sweated blood and waited on line to get on the job, did his time as a probie, broke his a** studying for promotion, and basically did the whole deal you describe - in Chicago. You seem to feel that should all count for nothing in NY, and I'm still no nearer understanding why. You speak of trust, well sure any new guy coming on any job has to earn trust and respect, that goes without saying. But coming in with a really solid rep. from their previous job should give them a big head start? It seems you don't have a lot of trust for any firefighters outside NY, you don't feel their ability and accomplishment is worth a brass washer when it comes to NY.

Then I read LTNRFDs post about the hiring situation he encountered in Florida, and I just can't square that away with the attitude you describe.

Aren't we ALL supposed to be brothers?

(lad12derff - yes it may be a stupid topic, but sometimes you have to ask apparently stupid questions. Or as I once read, sometimes the only way to get pertinent information is to ask impertinent questions )

Mike

Edited April 19, 2008 by abaduck

[Guest MVFD334]

DFD801 stated

"Hiring is done through civil service testing... thats the law and thats the fairest way to do it."

That is a joke if i have ever heard one... Anytime you get placed higher on a job list because of your race, sex, or watever, that is completely unfair.. They need to do away with all the EOE, affirmative action BS and hire the best QUALIFIED people for the job. Its not just a Fire or police either, its in every job out there.

[jcoppola 52]

Ya know, reading your reply and the reply from LTNRFD, I have to wonder are we talking about the same profession? You see how a guy could get confused!

I take your point entirely, JC - you don't seem to have taken mine at all. Our hypothetical rescue captain from Chicago sweated blood and waited on line to get on the job, did his time as a probie, broke his a** studying for promotion, and basically did the whole deal you describe - in Chicago. You seem to feel that should all count for nothing in NY, and I'm still no nearer understanding why. You speak of trust, well sure any new guy coming on any job has to earn trust and respect, that goes without saying. But coming in with a really solid rep. from their previous job should give them a big head start? It seems you don't have a lot of trust for any firefighters outside NY, you don't feel their ability and accomplishment is worth a brass washer when it comes to NY.

Then I read LTNRFDs post about the hiring situation he encountered in Florida, and I just can't square that away with the attitude you describe.

Aren't we ALL supposed to be brothers?

(lad12derff - yes it may be a stupid topic, but sometimes you have to ask apparently stupid questions. Or as I once read, sometimes the only way to get pertinent information is to ask impertinent questions )

Mike

I see your point of view, respect it, but I feel that it is 100% wrong. I take nothing away from the guy who transfers with a great rep, but, take the test that we all took, study the booklist that we all study and start at square 1 like the rest of us. If he did not want to try to get on a different department, why did he leave in the first place??? We all covet our jobs and you have to spend a great deal of time in "captivity" in the firehouse to properly understand why. Taking nothing away from vollies, you have to be a career firefighter to understand this. I don't think that there is anything I can say short of what I already did to make it any clearer to you. Now, I need to get back to studying for a promotion that I waited for for over ten years for in the Norwalk Fire Dept, where I started as a pee-on (with 3 years previous paid experience and 10 volunteer) and currently work as a Lieutenant, and have strived to earn the respect and trust of my peers since I started here...get it now?

By the way, have a good night...I am NOT mad or up-in-arms as my post may appear.

JC

PS: I don't think this is stupid topic either, so at least we agree on some level.

[DFD801 0]

abaduck, I'm going to try and help you understand... lets see if this works. Your rescue captain earned respect, trust and a good rep during his 15 years on the job in Chicago. Now he's the man. Understand this, all that is only good in Chicago. It's non-transferable. You said any new guy on the job has to earn respect... well, he's the new guy. He has to earn the respect of a whole new crew. Noone cares what his resume says. Now he could definitely go for another job aroung here after 15 years.... I know a few who have. But he'd start all over as a probie, never as a Captain and Joe C explained why. Obviously down in Florida, if a guy can walk in and get a job, there must not be the demand to get on like it is around here. But he's not going to get on as a Captain. He still has to start as a probie and earn the trust and respect. Did I help you at all?

[abaduck 123]

We all covet our jobs and you have to spend a great deal of time in "captivity" in the firehouse to properly understand why. Taking nothing away from vollies, you have to be a career firefighter to understand this.

And there I think you hit the nail on the head. And I appreciate the way you put it! I work with career guys in my dept., we encounter career guys from other depts. on mutual aid, I guess for me trying to understand some of these things is part of being a good vollie.

I'm trying to understand it, I see where you're coming from, as we've discovered things are obviously different elsewhere in the USA and overseas, so it doesn't seem as ridiculous to me as it does to you, but unless anyone has anything else to say on the matter I'll leave it at that. Good luck with your promotion, I'm sure you've earned it!

Mike

[jcoppola 52]

Another discussion ending in a peaceful way. We are making huge strides here people. Keep up the good work.

Joe C.

[DFD801 0]

DFD801 stated

"Hiring is done through civil service testing... thats the law and thats the fairest way to do it."

That is a joke if i have ever heard one... Anytime you get placed higher on a job list because of your race, sex, or watever, that is completely unfair.. They need to do away with all the EOE, affirmative action BS and hire the best QUALIFIED people for the job. Its not just a Fire or police either, its in every job out there.

I definitely agree that the civil service process has it's problems... My career would've started years earlier in another city if the process worked the way it's supposed to work. I have to say Im glad it happened because I love my job in Danbury, but I'm sure it happened to other high scoring guys that didnt get as lucky.

But if the system worked the way it's supposed to with out the BS, how else could you take thousands of applicants and break them down to a few positions? Is there a better way?

[abaduck 123]

abaduck, I'm going to try and help you understand... lets see if this works. Your rescue captain earned respect, trust and a good rep during his 15 years on the job in Chicago. Now he's the man. Understand this, all that is only good in Chicago. It's non-transferable. You said any new guy on the job has to earn respect... well, he's the new guy. He has to earn the respect of a whole new crew. Noone cares what his resume says. Now he could definitely go for another job aroung here after 15 years.... I know a few who have. But he'd start all over as a probie, never as a Captain and Joe C explained why. Obviously down in Florida, if a guy can walk in and get a job, there must not be the demand to get on like it is around here. But he's not going to get on as a Captain. He still has to start as a probie and earn the trust and respect. Did I help you at all?

I was going to leave it, but I clearly owe you the courtesy of a reply... yes it helps to a degree, I just can't fully get my head round the 'non-transferable' bit. Since I KNOW that it doesn't work that way in other places. As I pointed out in an earlier post, I know for a fact that firefighters in the UK transfer from one end of the country to the other as a matter of routine.

Thinking this over, I think traditition plays a part, but also perhaps uniform standards? For example, in the UK, the fire service is organised throughout at the County level, there are no local town/village/city departments the way we have them here. And the rank structure, training, and promotion standards are basically entirely... standardised! So when the 'new guy' from outside comes in, there's a very high level of confidence immediately from his/her new colleagues that this new guy has been trained and assessed to perform to the required standard, so the earning of respect, while it still has to happen, is not such an issue. And there's no resentment at an 'outsider' taking a promotion spot, because everything works both ways... when one of the more junior ranks comes up ready for promotion, they're free to apply for any spot that comes open - in their own town, in the town next door, or anywhere in the country. Whereas here, with the great diversity of departments, the lack of transferability as you put it becomes a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Our hero from Chicago would come in running to a degree, in terms of basic firefighting skills & experience as a leader of firefighters, but he would have a LOT of catch-up to do in terms of getting up to speed on distinctly New York SOPs, department structure, codes & laws etc. etc. - quite apart from the issue of gaining respect which you mentioned.

Am I kinda making sense?

Mike

[Guest MVFD334]

I definitely agree that the civil service process has it's problems... My career would've started years earlier in another city if the process worked the way it's supposed to work. I have to say Im glad it happened because I love my job in Danbury, but I'm sure it happened to other high scoring guys that didnt get as lucky.

But if the system worked the way it's supposed to with out the BS, how else could you take thousands of applicants and break them down to a few positions? Is there a better way?

I wouldnt even know where to begin without breakin everything down and starting from the beginning. But that aint gonna happen. Glad to hear it worked out for you, just upsetting to see others let down because they didnt meet the requirement due to the lapse in time.

[mfkap 0]

I definitely agree that the civil service process has it's problems... My career would've started years earlier in another city if the process worked the way it's supposed to work. I have to say Im glad it happened because I love my job in Danbury, but I'm sure it happened to other high scoring guys that didnt get as lucky.

But if the system worked the way it's supposed to with out the BS, how else could you take thousands of applicants and break them down to a few positions? Is there a better way?

I particularly like the system of testing every 3 years. It is apparently put in place to ensure that less qualified people can get hired too. I have heard the argument that if they didn't wait that long, only the top scorers on the test would ever be hired. And that would be unfair to the people who are less qualified (lower scorers). And then the promotion system is in place to ensure that the unqualified people can eventually become unqualified bosses, and eventually be an unqualified leader. The entire system is ludicrous if you look at it from a distance. Doing your time and being a "bro" counts for more than intelligence and skill. Any job that has a process in place to ensure that under-qualified candidates are hired and promoted out of fairness, has problems at the core. When a big corporation needs to replace an "officer", they very often do national searches to find the best candidate. The fire service is one of the very few places where having the best qualified leadership is secondary to having done your time.

[antiquefirelt 994]

A few things to add:

One, the UK fire service is nationalized. They all have the same training and work under the same work rules country wide, not the case in the US.

Two, while Chicago may be one of the largest FD's in the US and may operate 'similarly' to FDNY they don't operate the same way. The FDNY guys go through extensive training on their operations. A Capt. from Chicago would not have nearly the operational awareness that a 5 year FF in FDNY does, based on how they do things. Ask the CFD Capt. where the second due FDNY ladder OV man is 10 minutes after arriving onscene? He probably has no clue, but everyone in FDNY will be able to tell you based on the building where that FF is supposed to be. The building and operational awareness that FDNY instills in their personnel is amazing and anyone from outside would be hard pressed to even come close.

Third, firefighting is a vertical advancement career. Allowing lateral transfers would stifle promotions from within. And anyone from outside would be just that an "outsider". In some smaller FD's I've heard of promotions being opened to outsiders if no qualified candidates from within are testing. This could be "new" FDs or those opening new companies with too few experienced firefighters.

Now the above being said, there are those FD's that allow lateral transfers (mostly out west it seems) but then try and match the camaraderie and brotherhood. I think you'll find that starting from probie and moving up forms a much tighter bunch.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I particularly like the system of testing every 3 years. It is apparently put in place to ensure that less qualified people can get hired too. I have heard the argument that if they didn't wait that long, only the top scorers on the test would ever be hired. And that would be unfair to the people who are less qualified (lower scorers).

I actually had to reread this to understand it. And it is completely WRONG.

Its not set up to hire tose less qualified, its set up to keep them out.

If you score an 80 on the test in 2000 and you are #25 on the list and we hire 5 per year. You die #10 on the list and the 15 who scored higher are not taking the next test, but there are a few who are better who missed the last test and a few new people who were not eligable the last time.

So in 2003 you study harder and score an 86 and your 18 on the list, but again we only hired 15. out of luck.

In 2006 you finally scored a 95, but it was an easy test and 30 scored higher. THe must be more qualified, so how is this unfair to the less qualified?

The reason the list is a four (4) year list is at least in NR case it cost us over $70,000 everytime we run a test.

Could the system be better...yes. Is it massively flawed...no.

The Civil service system was set up to be fair and hire the most deserving. Without it, the chief would hire the brother of the councilman and the kid whose dad gave the most to the mayors reelection or his kid who would be in Sing Sing if the chief did not play hiring games with the pd chief kid.

And then the promotion system is in place to ensure that the unqualified people can eventually become unqualified bosses, and eventually be an unqualified leader.

Since your hiring concept is wrong........so is this. Promotional tests are done on a 2 year cycle so its even harder to get promoted than hired. And the # of openings is so small that in most cases if you do not score in the top 3, you dont stand a chance. In my case I scored #1 or #2 on 4 test before I got promoted to LT and #1 or #2 on 3 tests before Capt. If there are no openings it does not matter how you score.

The entire system is ludicrous if you look at it from a distance.

Thats why I'm explaining it from up close and personal.

Doing your time and being a "bro" counts for more than intelligence and skill. Any job that has a process in place to ensure that under-qualified candidates are hired and promoted out of fairness, has problems at the core.

Not here. But in other places...i.e. in Detroit (I've been told) they do not do promotion tests, just seniority lists. If you out live everyone you get promoted.

[Bnechis 3,961]

One, the UK fire service is nationalized. They all have the same training and work under the same work rules country wide, not the case in the US.

In 1999 I spent some time at Morton-On-March the Fire College for the UK. They were running what we would call 1st line supervisors. They had about 30 newly promoted 1st time career officers going thru training. I followed a group of 6 who were assigned to a pump (engine co). They were given 6 scenarios and at each on everyone rotated officer, mpo, nozzle, etc.

Now these 6 officers had never met before, they were from 6 different depts. in 3 different countries (England, Scotland, & Wales). They worked like they had been stationed togeter for years. The SOP's are the same, the equipment is the same and the rigs are the same, right down to each compartment i.e. comp. #4 has the same equipment in it in London and in Inverness (No. Scotland).

Makes it very easy to switch depts. when the main difference is the name on the door.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Spent a few days in Inverness two years ago while on 10 day vacation in Scotland. Nice place, I'd go back in a heartbeat. We stayed mostly in B&B's and found that Scotland (probably all of the UK) really takes fire safety seriously. Didn't have much time to talk to any Scottish firemen as it was my girlfriend's "family heritage" trip. But I noticed all emergency vehicles looked the same all over Scotland and in Dublin IR as well.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Our Ex Chief of PD moved to Fla. After some time collecting his pension he decided to get a job with the local PD. He had to go back to the Police Academy and do the same BS that he started long ago.

So I say to all of you. You aren't that special. I don't care what or who you know. Stay the extra 5 years in Chi town while your wife and family move to NY. You can see each other a couple times a year and when you retire you can move and enjoy your pension. If not, get divorced keep working as a FF and stay in CHI TOWN.

[abaduck 123]

Spent a few days in Inverness two years ago while on 10 day vacation in Scotland. Nice place, I'd go back in a heartbeat. We stayed mostly in B&B's and found that Scotland (probably all of the UK) really takes fire safety seriously. Didn't have much time to talk to any Scottish firemen as it was my girlfriend's "family heritage" trip. But I noticed all emergency vehicles looked the same all over Scotland and in Dublin IR as well.

Glad you liked it - I was born and raised 15 miles from Inverness! Whilst I love America, I'll never stop going back to Scotland.

The fire service really is a different scene over there; they don't do EMS calls at all, ever; most of the houses are masonary, not wood frame, so many fires are tackled with glorified high-pressure hosereels, like oversized booster reels, with just the water in the tank. And certainly for the smaller pieces, the Highlands fire service actually build quite a lot of their own apparatus in the workshops in Inverness.

Very few volunteers also - only in the tiny, remote, scattered communties. Everywhere else it's full-time career guys in cities and large towns, and 'retained' guys pretty much everywhere else: they have other jobs, but are paid an annual retainer fee to be on-call firefighters, in addition to being paid for calls and training time. They're considered professional firefighters and can & do join the union (although yes, there is occasionally tension between the retained & full-time guys).

Mike

[x134 46]

I can honestly say that if you tried to come to my job and tried to by pass anyone for a promotion to Captain or Lieutenant and I WAS IN LINE FOR THAT JOB, myself and 80 other guys would be pissed. How can you think just because you were on the job somewhere else you have a right to another one with out going through the process? Firefighters not officers can just transfer most of the time, In New York .You can most of the time if retirement is the same. F.D.N.Y. AND Yonkers are different ,I don't think you can transfer from a different department. If you were able to you have to go through there acadamy. Already being a boss in said department it is very hard to transfer out to another as an officer , or next to impossible to do. Has anyone ever heard of this happening?

Edited April 19, 2008 by x134

[firemoose827 324]

First, I definitely see what Joe and the others are saying when it comes to earning the respect of the crew and starting all over again. But I just have an interesting question to throw out to you all, JUST SOMETHING to ponder and not start a riot because like Mr. Coppola mentioned this has been an excellent topic with minimal tension.

So, here it goes...

You all mention that a fire Captain from one dept must earn the respect of the crews in another dept before being considered for promotional consideration and go through all the same stuff the home crews must...Thats understandable to a point. But here is my question. Does this mean that if you, a career dept, goes mutual aid to another career dept to a huge fire you would not respect the orders of the other officers on scene? Because in my eyes its the same thing we are talking about. If your an Engine Lieutenant and you and your 4 man crew are assigned to report to a Deputy Chief from your neighboring dept, do you respect that Deputy Chiefs Knowledge and orders? Of course you would because its the Incident Command system and you follow orders. Wouldnt this be the same? I mean the Officer transferring from one dept to the other.

Respect is earned, I agree, as I see these issues on a daily basis myself, but couldnt the officer have a chance to earn the respect of the crews? Just something to think about, or be considered my Meager contribution to the discussion.

Joe, Good luck on your promotion brother!!

[jcoppola 52]

Joe, Good luck on your promotion brother!!

Thanks for the well wishes, the promotional opportunity is a year away, but the book list takes at least that long to "wrap your brain around", so I always start reading early.

As far as taking orders from the volunteer fire officer, as long as the order is in line with the safety of my crew, I have no problem. In my city, we work within many volunteer and combination systems and seldom, if ever, there is an issue with this. Every once in a while, one may come in contact with a volunteer fire officer who happens to dislike paid people, and it will show in how they deal with the paid officer, but, as we who have experience know, this is easily thwarted and dealt with.

Ask any of the Stamford guys what happens when an over-zealous Chief takes matters into his own hands.

JVC

[firemoose827 324]

You all mention that a fire Captain from one dept must earn the respect of the crews in another dept before being considered for promotional consideration and go through all the same stuff the home crews must...Thats understandable to a point. But here is my question. Does this mean that if you, a career dept, goes mutual aid to another career dept to a huge fire you would not respect the orders of the other officers on scene? Because in my eyes its the same thing we are talking about. If your an Engine Lieutenant and you and your 4 man crew are assigned to report to a Deputy Chief from your neighboring dept, do you respect that Deputy Chiefs Knowledge and orders? Of course you would because its the Incident Command system and you follow orders. Wouldnt this be the same? I mean the Officer transferring from one dept to the other.

Thanks for the well wishes, the promotional opportunity is a year away, but the book list takes at least that long to "wrap your brain around", so I always start reading early.

As far as taking orders from the volunteer fire officer, as long as the order is in line with the safety of my crew, I have no problem. In my city, we work within many volunteer and combination systems and seldom, if ever, there is an issue with this. Every once in a while, one may come in contact with a volunteer fire officer who happens to dislike paid people, and it will show in how they deal with the paid officer, but, as we who have experience know, this is easily thwarted and dealt with.

Ask any of the Stamford guys what happens when an over-zealous Chief takes matters into his own hands.

JVC

Joe...

Just wanted to point out something before its taken WAY outa context here!!! I never mentioned volunteer. I mentioned one career dept responding MA to another career dept and the significance of taking orders from another officer in that other dept. Just a curious question of mine I developed after reading this topic.

Just wanted to prevent the inevitable from happening!!!!

Stay Safe all.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Does this mean that if you, a career dept, goes mutual aid to another career dept to a huge fire you would not respect the orders of the other officers on scene? Because in my eyes its the same thing we are talking about. If your an Engine Lieutenant and you and your 4 man crew are assigned to report to a Deputy Chief from your neighboring dept, do you respect that Deputy Chiefs Knowledge and orders? Of course you would because its the Incident Command system and you follow orders. Wouldnt this be the same? I mean the Officer transferring from one dept to the other.

I see your point, but I do think it's a different situation. First, in our area on M/A calls the crew still operates as a company and the CO maintain direct control over them so they wouldn't be functioning under another FD's company officers. But of course we operate and cooperate fully with whomever the officer is paid, vollie, whatever. But similarly, all of us know what we know and it's easy to have respect and follow orders when things are being done within our comfort zone. As soon as things get outside our comfort zone we tend to question things. This is where you really have to have a lot of faith in someone you don't know. If your given an order to do something you think is not safe for your crew by a M/A officer, you're in a real pickle. Follow through at the risk of your crews safety or find a way to tactfully deny the assignment. You'd better be right either way!

There is more to being a company officer than fireground operations. We probably all know guys that are good on the fireground but are terrible at the day to day routine. A company officer should know the in and out of the dept, the daily routine, the rules and regs, the SOGs and the tactics employed on the fireground. It's hard to imagine anyone from outside knowing these things as well as a fireman from within. It's "possible" but unlikely. Like I said before, some FD's do allow these "laterals" but they're usually smaller FD's who need experienced officers due to the personnel's lack of fireground experience.

[jcoppola 52]

Joe...

Just wanted to point out something before its taken WAY outa context here!!! I never mentioned volunteer. I mentioned one career dept responding MA to another career dept and the significance of taking orders from another officer in that other dept. Just a curious question of mine I developed after reading this topic.

My bad, I also mentioned combination systems too, so I was not singling out vollies. It just so happens that there are instances where a career officer who tested and earned a promotion may be a bit hesitant to take orders from a 24 year old who was voted into a rank by his pals at the firehouse. I can speak frankly and neutrally, because I was one of those 22 year old kids who was a volunteer LT who was voted in by my buddies at the FD, but frankly, I always knew my place and would always defer to the more experienced fire officer, paid or volunteer.