Obama-Biden

[OnTheWheel 43]

I guess we won't be the super power anymore, only a matter of time before we get attacked on our own soil and have nothing to defend ourselves with.

Obame disarms America!

[FFPCogs 863]

No 20th century born American can possibly be THIS naive, and out of touch with the realities of the world today. I said it before I'll say it again. This kind of liberal, pacifist thinking has already been tried, and proven dangerous. Does he really think everyone plays nice in the sandbox..my God what a fool. This has to be some kind of political posturing..he just can't be that stupid.

Well if nothing else his foreign policy and defense experience is clearly evident now. Also what does this policy say about his running mate to allow Obama to make such ridiculous and potentially dangerous promises. Is this the advise we can expect from such an "experienced" Senator.

I don't own a gun, but I can see myself getting one if B O get elected. I will be an Army of one..we'll all have to be.

Cogs

[CPAGE 2]

Is is going to change the name of his party from The Democrats to the Taliban. This guy is a damn joke and what are they thinking. If he gets in the country is done.

Just my 2 cents after taxes.

Chris

No Obama 08

[LTNRFD 266]

I'm sure the former Soviet Union will work out a nice treaty with the U.S. Hey they're more of our friends then the rest of the screwed up world. It's not the former Soviet Union that I'm worried about. What's his plan with the unstable third world countries that have the big chemistry sets? Those guys that don't play fair or by the rules.

[ny10570 745]

You guys have got to be flipping kidding me. Everyone's favorite Republican President Regan first pushed nuclear disarmament with Russia which was continued by G.H.W. Bush and Clinton. Standing down ICBM's was begun under G.H.W. Bush and continued under Clinton. When Donald Rumsfeld was first selected by G.W. Bush as his Secretary of Defense he had two major goals. The first was restructuring the military to be able to respond quickly around the world to smaller conflicts and get away from cold war tactics and strategy. His second was to revamp the technology development arm of the military to cut bloated failing projects and refocus on technology based developments and force multipliers over brute strength weapons that had become the norm during the cold war. The only thing new here flushing the missile defense shield, a project that is so far behind schedule and been abandoned by so many people because the doesn't work. The entire thing is based on information gleaned from the patriot missile system. A system that wors so well Israel went out and built their own rather than rely on our freebies. Out tanks, helicopters, aircraft and navy are all good enough but even they knew the Patriot was a POS. So now I pose this, what has he said that will send us into a Mad Max like post-apocalyptic fantasy? I would like to hear an answer to LTNRFD's question from both sides. We can't ignore them and we can't kick down the door and take over every scumbag dictator under the sun.

[LTNRFD 266]

You guys have got to be flipping kidding me. Everyone's favorite Republican President Regan first pushed nuclear disarmament with Russia which was continued by G.H.W. Bush and Clinton. Standing down ICBM's was begun under G.H.W. Bush and continued under Clinton. When Donald Rumsfeld was first selected by G.W. Bush as his Secretary of Defense he had two major goals. The first was restructuring the military to be able to respond quickly around the world to smaller conflicts and get away from cold war tactics and strategy. His second was to revamp the technology development arm of the military to cut bloated failing projects and refocus on technology based developments and force multipliers over brute strength weapons that had become the norm during the cold war. The only thing new here flushing the missile defense shield, a project that is so far behind schedule and been abandoned by so many people because the doesn't work.

So if I understand you above statement, Obama really isn't bringing many new ideas to the table. He will only go with the flow that was already started by the Republicans. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[ny10570 745]

Yeah. Obama hasn't really suggested anything new. Some things have been dropped by the current administration that he is looking to bring back but Obama has yet to announce any ground breaking plans that weren't started by someone else. For that matter neither has McCain. That's why I don't get how either side can say that electing one or the other spells doom for the country. So far all I know is that Obama is Balck and doesn't wear a flag pin, Biden rides Amtrack, McCain is old and a veteran, and Palin is a woman with a pregnant 17 y/o. So unless you're voting along party lines this is all we have to really go on.

[Guest]

So if I understand you above statement, Obama really isn't bringing many new ideas to the table. He will only go with the flow that was already started by the Republicans. Correct me if I'm wrong.

like McCain picked a female VP because he's really an original guy...

...and yes, i am being sarcastic (an addendum for those whom may need it)

[FFPCogs 863]

The Strategic Arms Limitation Treaty date back to Nixon with SALT I. Over these 35+ years we have already reduced our nuclear forces considerably, as have the Russians. That's all well and good, but these reductions are with Russia only, not the Chinese, Indians, Pakistanis, or any other nuclear state. Lik it or not nuclear weapons ARE a deterrent to their use..you bomb us, we bomb you..we both lose. This has been the working stratedgy since 1949 when the Russians tested their first atomic bomb. Further reductions will limit our effective deterrence level plain and simple. If we cannot ensure an enemies destruction he may very well be tempted to use his weapons against us and take his losses. It is the fear of these weapons that keeps them from being used, reduce that fear, and you increase the potential of their use.

Missle defense systems, the money invested has had an impact. Just like SDI in the 80's which was a factor in the demise of the Soviet Union, today's missle defense systems forces any challengers to invest to defeat the intent of that system. Only the U.S. has the resources and ablility to do this, so as our potential enemies try to keep up, they suffer in other areas which in the end weakens them, not us. One must also remember that there is a high probability that there will be a few new countries in the nuclear club within the coming decade. Countries like Iran, North Korea and Syria all of whom have ballistic missles capable of reaching the U.S. or our allies (Japan, Israel, Taiwan, Turkey ect ect.).

Cut back Future Combat Systems, another mistake. Our ability to field troops and weapons on the cutting edge is the strength of a downsized military (thanks Bill Clinton). Taking away the weapons systems that will allow them to effectively do their jobs is akin to cutting a fire dept by 50 % and then equiping them with 30 year old equipment while expecting the same level of service.

Most important of all is the perceptions of our potential enemies. History has shown time and again that when a power is percieved to be weak or "soft" they invite trouble. In recent history, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor because they percieved Americans to be soft and unwilling to defend the Pacific. That erroneous perception was based in part on our defense spending at the time. Japan saw an America unwilling to invest in it's own security and struck. The same can be said of Korea, the Russians instigated the actions of North Korea because they perecieved us to be weak and unwilling to go to arms. An even greater tradgedy is the handling of Hitler. The European powers bent over backwards to appease him and reduce their militaries, as did we to some extent and look what that got the world.

To be percieved to be weakening our military and their options is to invite disaster. America is like the huge Bison on the savanna, constantly stalked by the hyenas. Any weaking will cause them to pounce. Only from a position strength can we hope to keep our enemies and potential enemies at bay.

My $.02

Cogs

ps I have stated my beliefs about Iraq in other threads so I'm sure all are aware of my position there.

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

FFCOGS. Don't under estimate the stupidity of youth!! Pride in America has gone by the way side. With calls for "world Government". It's a shame Civics class isn't really taught any longer in school. Kids might understand the fight this country and it's population has gone through. They might appreciate it a little more instead of giving it away. It almost goes hand in hand with society today. Look around. Few kids have part time jobs. They are handed everything, with little if nothing expected inreturn.

Just a though.

[Guest]

FFCOGS. Don't under estimate the stupidity of youth!! Pride in America has gone by the way side. With calls for "world Government". It's a shame Civics class isn't really taught any longer in school. Kids might understand the fight this country and it's population has gone through. They might appreciate it a little more instead of giving it away. It almost goes hand in hand with society today. Look around. Few kids have part time jobs. They are handed everything, with little if nothing expected inreturn.

Just a though.

i don't know if i would be considered a "youth" to you, but i am younger than you. although i do love my country, i know it's FAR from perfect. there are many countries out there that are far worse than ours, then again there are some countries that are on their way to be as great as America. f*** the world government idea - when i see that i hope the world will end.

you're right, in that maybe the people younger than you and kids younger than me don't and CANNOT see all this country has fought for...because right now, they ARE watching this country FIGHT....but for what??? You can't blame them for seeing our country hated by entire countries, political agencies trying and trying to have our "leader" arrested for war crimes - and i hope the higher heavens punish bush for what he has done on this earth and to (not for) this country - but arresting him for war crimes will make the country look WEAK to the world.

BUT, you can't blame the youth and their views - we (as a country) have created our own path and this (our lack of trust in government and laughable ecomony) is our own doing. we have entrusted our country's well being on a man (bush, and his father when he was pres) whom of which have their PERSONAL business ties with the Bin Laden family. In doing so, we indirectly invited a man who has personal financial gains in this "war" we are in, bc he has great shares in the tank and weapons building business.

i still have faith in the country, but i don't think either loser running for pres is good enough but generically i'm for ANY candidate that ISN'T for big business. i know there are more issues than just big business, but if the right things are done to properly control big businesses a beneficial trickle down effect will take place.

i met an old irishman last year and on the back of his old oldsmobile he had a bumper sticker that stated "I Love My Country, But I HATE My Government" and that bumper sticker says it all for me.

but again, don't blame people for ideas and views that exemplify the simple equation that 1 + 1 = 2

Edited September 3, 2008 by vacguy

[Jared1979 19]

This year I doubt I will voting for president. Obama polices are going to hurt people especially working class people

[ex-commish 490]

FFCOGS. Don't under estimate the stupidity of youth!! Pride in America has gone by the way side. With calls for "world Government". It's a shame Civics class isn't really taught any longer in school. Kids might understand the fight this country and it's population has gone through. They might appreciate it a little more instead of giving it away. It almost goes hand in hand with society today. Look around. Few kids have part time jobs. They are handed everything, with little if nothing expected inreturn.

Just a though.

While I do agree with this statement I wouldn't go as far as stupdity of youth. Our youth is reflective of how they are raised. Values begin in the home and not the classroom. It is up to us as parents to drill into our kids the value of freedom and not to take it for granted.

[pjreilly 6]

This year I doubt I will voting for president. Obama polices are going to hurt people especially working class people

By you not voting, you are casting a vote for the OBAMINATION of this country. Vote the lesser of two evils and the one who won't hurt us as much

[SageVigiles 1,194]

The idea of not voting as some sort of protest is, excuse me for my candid thoughts, stupid. If you don't vote, you should have no right to complain. You had a voice on election day and you chose not to speak.

[ny10570 745]

Coggs, I all ways look forward to your replies. Thought out and fact based. Thank you. I see Obama as an intelligent enough individual to not bury behind the eight ball in light of the very real threat foreign nuclear weapon development. A goal of organized mutual disarmament is something anyone would be hard pressed to fight against. To abandon your weapons in the hopes that others will follow is suicide. Hopefully any future changes mirror those of the past that recognize the tragic reality of nuclear war but maintain our ability to effectively deter aggression. In short reductions yes, elimination never.

Missile defense is something that needs to be actively addressed. Current technology just isn't there yet. Short and medium range missile defense systems are practical and should be invested in. The problem is Bush made an ICBM shield for America the crown jewel and priority. Israel focusing on short range systems have come a long way. Some American money and intellect added to the Israeli system or hell even a new ground up system could provide some protection now to our most vulnerable positions. We still don't have effective protection from missiles that nearly every threatening country has. My problem isn't with the idea, its the blind ambition where they commit to the creation of a product at any cost.

Clinton F-ed us with his plan to use Reserves and National guard as back-up while still being the worlds police force. There was a good book written , by I think Wesley Clark (could very well be wrong) where he explained Clinton's military plans and perceived lack of action. He was committed to not taking the lead in any protracted military conflict hoping to rely on a growing and more aggressive NATO. With his military cuts and lack of action from the UN and NATO (raise you're hand if any of you are surprised) he was informed he couldn't afford an all out war. Now with a lot of people screaming for us to stop trying to save the world and take care of ourselves first it looks like 'ol bubba's people had a good idea just crap execution. Don't sell your house before you have a new one. All ways seemed kind of simple to me.

Its a cheesy line from a horrible movie, but "power perceived is power achieved". I completely agree and Jimmy Carter is a great example of that. However our new enemy is not intimidated by power. He enjoys being the underdog. It allows him to justify his tactics and recruit from a disenfranchised minority. Being the baddest dog on the block challenging terrorists to come get us isn't the solution and neither is turning in on ourselves and licking our wounds. We're letting Europe take the lead in Georgia right now and its almost embarrassing the way Russia continues to tell them to go screw.

I hate the way people compare these past few years to the 1960 and the political unrest of the times, but damn comandchief your statement sounds like the same garbage that was spewed by older people back then too. "Every Generation needs a new revolution" is a simple yet pertinent quote from Thomas Jefferson. THe revolution may not work but its needed to breed new ideas and prevent stagnation. A globalized economy was once feared to ruin this country and while many have suffered and lost jobs the country as a whole has prospered and improved.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

One more reason for me to vote against Obama. "Something something change, something something new ideas, something something, yes we can." No Barrack, no we can't...

[FFPCogs 863]

NY10570, Thank you for the compliment, and I find your replies equally well thought out and well presented...actually I find everyone on here has valid points and usually present their opinions well. I find that while I may not agree, I almost always wind up thinking carefully about the information and ideas presented..so to all thank you.

The number one threat is terrorism right now, but as recent events have shown Russia has been flexing it's muscle again, Iran has no intention of halting it's nuclear programs, Pakistan is on the verge of implosion, North Korea is starving and becoming increasingly desperate, and China as it grows economically stronger needs resources more. Any one of these factors has historically been a cause for war in and of itself, combined that threat increases exponentially.

There is really very little more that can be done to prevent a terrorist attack, as was stated they thrive in the underdog role, and this helps their cause. The size and abilities of our military will never offer a 100% deterrent against commited fanatics who seek glory through death. Our military power can only influence terrorist activity by controlling or destroying the nation/states that support it. The post cold war phase of international relations is over, and the U.S. will again find itself confronted by adversaries on a national scale. We cannot become so totally focused on terrorism that we become incapable of meeting our obligations to our allies and by virtue of that, to our own security.

At times I have believed in isolationist policies, but the days of them being viable options for our country are over. Economically, militarily, politically and socially our nation is now linked to a majority of the worlds other nations, for better or for worse. Therefore our interests a scattered all over the globe and we must be in a position to continue to protect those interests. Downsizing any sector of the military, eliminating funding for further research into defense systems, and pulling out of military operations already in progress without a clear victory will have a negative and potentially dangerous effect in the long run. Again a simple look back shows this. In the 1970's after our withdrawl from Vietnam there were definite consequences. Soviet military expansion exploded, terrorism became international, our military suffered a huge drop in morale, and our government was paralyzed in dealing with international crisis. As the U.S. retreated into itself the world around us grew bolder in confronting us. Thankfully Ronald Reagan was elected in 1980 and addressed this decline, I believe successfully.

Another huge difference between the recent past and today is the fact that there is no longer a Soviet Union. We, the U.S. and the USSR effectively controlled the world back then. While always in a state of "cold war" we both kept our allies and satellites basically in check and prevented wider scale conflicts. That system of checks and balances no longer exists and much of the world is in free fall mode, with no "big brother" to reign them in. Russia now has regained it's confidence, but not it's control over it's former lackeys. It is these former lackeys that pose a growing threat, above and beyond Islamic militants. Retreat, reduction and refusal to see the world as it is will greatly contribute to our nations IN-security.

Obama's plans will put us on a collision course with the hostile nations of the world by sending the wrong message about American resolve and abilities. In the long run they will lead to more blood being shed by American service men and women.

For all the ills facing our nation, I am firmly convinced that national defense is the prime issue facing voters in this election, because inaction on this front will impact every other sector of American life, if not today then in the very near tomorrow.

Just another $.02

Cogs

[calhobs 110]

Got this email today. Check it out you may find it interesting

Your_vote_counts.doc

[calhobs 110]

vacguy, Please keep in mind I did not do the research myself, this came in an email to me, so please take it with a grain of salt. The person who sent it originally did the research. Perhaps I should of checked it before posting it but who ever likes the resources used are at the end of the paper.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Having nothing to do with Obama, but simply with party history, did anyone see the NY Times this sunday?

There was an article comparing the history of this country under Republican control vs. Democratic control. Under the democrats, the middle class has grown and the divide between the high income and the low income did nothing but get smaller. Under republicans the income gap grew NON-STOP!

Look, I just don't understand why the average blue collar voter (I very much am one) votes republican when that party has done NOTHING for them and give endless tax breaks to the rich?

I'm fairly sure I'll be voting democrat come November.

Side note, stop all the silly Obama propaganda. He's not muslim, he didn't go to an anti-american school in iraq. The list of rumors goes on forever.

He may not be perfect, but I'll take a change that's as different as can be from Bush.

[Guest]

Having nothing to do with Obama, but simply with party history, did anyone see the NY Times this sunday?

There was an article comparing the history of this country under Republican control vs. Democratic control. Under the democrats, the middle class has grown and the divide between the high income and the low income did nothing but get smaller. Under republicans the income gap grew NON-STOP!

Look, I just don't understand why the average blue collar voter (I very much am one) votes republican when that party has done NOTHING for them and give endless tax breaks to the rich?

I'm fairly sure I'll be voting democrat come November.

Side note, stop all the silly Obama propaganda. He's not muslim, he didn't go to an anti-american school in iraq. The list of rumors goes on forever.

He may not be perfect, but I'll take a change that's as different as can be from Bush.

agreed 100%

i don't understand it myself!

the R-Party views themselves as true patriots, but there not!

[FFPCogs 863]

Being computer incompetent I am unable to post a link here... :angry: .

I just watched a very interesting video about middle class woes that's worth a look. Go to www.reason.tv/video/show/61.html and have a look. It makes perfect sense to me.

Cogs

[JustSomeGuy 0]

Look, I just don't understand why the average blue collar voter (I very much am one) votes republican when that party has done NOTHING for them and give endless tax breaks to the rich?

I do not post often here but this I do know the answer to, Reaganomics. Promotes big business, makes the blue collar worker feel as if he is being benefited. when in reality it is just making the top 2% of the country extremely wealthier leaving us to fight over the scraps, and yes the workers receive a little more but lose so much more in potential social programs i.e. universal healthcare etc etc etc....

[antiquefirelt 994]

Being computer incompetent I am unable to post a link here... :angry: .

I just watched a very interesting video about middle class woes that's worth a look. Go to www.reason.tv/video/show/61.html and have a look. It makes perfect sense to me.

Cogs

I think that Drew's video doesn't quite address every part of the pie. While the middle class has much more than it did in the past, so do the lower class and the rich.

How is it the middle class don't feel the squeeze when the lower class is given free programs that we pay for as a percentage of our pay? Oh, but not the upper class who only have to pay up to a point, everything over said point gets a reduced percentage. When we get a 3% COLA but insurance prices increase and our contribution increase, while the liberals increase minimum wage at rates far exceeding the COLA, and raise taxes to cover the subsidy insurance programs. So the bottom moves up and the middle stays where it is. OK, in this case maybe the rich would pay more as they employ the minimum wage earners, so they increase the price of their products/services to cover their profit margin. Then we middle class persons go buy their products or use their services at the inflated rate.

I don't know how many times I've seen huge LCD TVs, tricked out cars, expensive clothes and the like in subsidized low income housing developments around our area but I know the "have not's" have more than I do and I work 60+ hrs a week and get nothing in subsidy. I'm even OK helping those less fortunate up and on their feet, but it's getting ridiculous.

[FFPCogs 863]

I know this is off topic here as this thread is about Obama's defense "plans" but since the middle class was brought up I posted the link. There is no partisanship involved.

To me the most telling and important statement made by the economist about the middle class was this.

"it's not the high cost of living that hurts, it's the cost of living high".

You can disagree but neither the Democratic or Republican party really stresses individual fiscal responsibility. The "squeeze" on the middle class is self induced. The vast majority of Americans live beyond their means, and then blame either Government action or inaction as the reason for their troubles. We Americans consume more of everything than the rest of the world combined, and have steadily become a buy now pay later society. Troubles ensue when it comes time to pay the piper.

There has always been and always will be the rich, the poor and the majority...the middle class. As pointed out in the video MOST Americans a richer materially now than ever before in our history, but with that materialism comes the debt that is the real "sqeezer".

Remember too that most of our elected officials in Washington, Dems and Republicans alike are a part of the top percentile of wealthy Americans..they are the rich getting richer and will NEVER jeapordize that status.

Cogs

[ex-commish 490]

the R-Party views themselves as true patriots, but there not!

So than what are we? You seem to be a political expert so why not enlighten us?

[Guest]

So than what are we? You seem to be a political expert so why not enlighten us?

oh, i am a political expert. i work for see-en-en.

republicans are positioned as true patriots, probably bc of their "free mason" history, Demo's are the other people. i hope you are all enlightened, i'll be charging you all 1,000 emtbravo points for this insider info...sarcasm?

[gamewell45 258]

agreed 100%

i don't understand it myself!

the R-Party views themselves as true patriots, but there not!

Political party enrollment doesn't necessarily mean your more of a patriot over another person; What about those of us who aren't enrolled in any political party? There are plenty of Independents in the US because they have no faith in either major political party. But it doesn't mean they can't be patriots.

Remember, its election year and all political parties are spewing their rhetoric. Look past the window dressing and vote your conscience.

[Guest]

Political party enrollment doesn't necessarily mean your more of a patriot over another person; What about those of us who aren't enrolled in any political party? There are plenty of Independents in the US because they have no faith in either major political party. But it doesn't mean they can't be patriots.

Remember, its election year and all political parties are spewing their rhetoric. Look past the window dressing and vote your conscience.

i am a member of the Independant Party - i read you lound and clear