Westchester Fire/EMS Trunked System

[SteveOFD 176]

With the anniversary of the activation of the Fire/EMS Trunked UHF System this Wednesday, September 10, I am starting this thread to post comments regarding the system.

I am looking for comments on what is good, and what is bad about the system from people who have actually used the system. Let's keep this thread constructive, only the good and bad from actual users please.

Thanks

Steve

[Tanker 10eng 140]

We tried to use it for tanker operations at a structure fire in Yorktown, and it was not the best idea... Tanker ops, from the Pond site, to fill sites were spread over many hilly miles, and the 5 tankers, drafting engine and pond command had no communications...

[Bnechis 3,961]

Many of the career depts. (EFD, MVFD, NRFD, YFD, Others?) are not using the trunked system for incidents in there communities (because we have our own radio systems that work better for us). Last month when NRHS was on fire and we had LFD, GFD, EFD, SFD & WPFD in town responding to multiple calls (due to major storm), most have our radio and that worked great, 1 or 2 were trying to contact us on the trunked system, which was not in use.

EFD, NRFD & YFD set up there systems prior to the county system and in NR's case because we were told by the county that the trunked system would not do what we need a radio system to do.

On a more positive note, last spring we had a highrise fire requiring about 6 different MA EMS agencies. They used the trunked system and it worked perfect for coordinating that component.

[mikerabbit 2]

The agency I work for provides ALS for multiple ambulance corps. For the ones that use the radio it works out great. However some agencies still use thier own radio and not the trunked one so, I contact my dispatcher who telephones another dispatcher to relay a message. It is also nice for mutual aide, being able to dial in to where ever you are going. 60 Control Dispatchers have also been helpfull on the radio. The hospital comms are also crystal clear compared to the old HEAR radio!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Worked well for me when I needed some coordination and answers during a significant mutual aid incident in Putnam County several weeks ago.

As far as the tanker incident mentioned, I'd be interested in knowing the finer details like what channel, etc. was used and who used what type of radio...mobile versus portable. You can only learn and improve by reviewing and diessecting and then find a way to make it work. If not we tend to discard it as if it doesn't work.

The only problem that I have...is that I don't see more plans by agencies I deal with on when they would like to use it and how!

[SteveOFD 176]

als,

I would also like to know about the Tanker Ops problem described. The hilly terrain should not have played a key in the communications of this incident. Either you have access to the nearest Tower (repeater) or you don't. The way Tanker 10eng is describing it, it is as if they were trying to use the Fireground portable channels. If they were actually using the Trunked System, and there were these problems, then there is a form that can be filed to report such problems. Without feedback about such problems, the County cannot try to correct any issues with the System.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

That's what I was thinking also Steve but didn't want to speculate.

[xchief2x 79]

my thought as well may have been using the trunk radio but on the FG channels

[DaRock98 76]

My dept. uses the system for both our Fire and EMS and I have yet to find any draw backs about it except the fact they are in separate banks (Fire is on A and EMS is on It makes it a little difficult for the people who are no so familiar with the system to realize that they need to switch banks to contact the other rig and or IC.(mostly the older members who have been trained on it but just don't want to learn it). Other then that it works great for us and we have yet find any spots in our district that the system doesn't work. One last point is I don't like how you can't hear the chief call in or hear any updates over the pager while you are en route to the firehouse. Sometimes those updates can be very important and if they are the chief usually has 60 re dispatch the update but if no chief signs on we have to wait till the first rig calls in. But like I said other then those 2 minor defaults I think its a great system.

Edited September 10, 2008 by DaRock98

[OoO 24]

Are hospitals using the trunked system yet?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Are hospitals using the trunked system yet?

Some are yes and I like it much better.

Steve I have a question....if there is an agency within the county that adds to their inventory fleet, not just replaces a vehicle. Is the county giving them a radio for that vehicle also...or are they responsible to buy it. Which we both know where that will lead up to with some agencies when the $$ question pops up.

[xchief2x 79]

Tom

To the best of my recollection departments were told if they were purchasing a new vehicle (additonal) to let the county know before the funding was gone, so I am going to guess that a dept that adds a rig will probably have to purchase their own trunk radio.

[Goose 188]

It's alright i suppose. Coverage is spotty in some areas, esp with the portables. Other than that some dispatchers don't bother answering - i could care less but if you want me to use it at least answer me when I'm telling you where i am or going or my status. Dunno what the root of that problem is, we probably need more dispatchers (I'm all for that).

Edited September 10, 2008 by Goose

[SteveOFD 176]

Steve I have a question....if there is an agency within the county that adds to their inventory fleet, not just replaces a vehicle. Is the county giving them a radio for that vehicle also...or are they responsible to buy it.

als

I do not have an answer for you on that question. When the County provided the training and informational sessions on the System I was not asked to attend. The vast majority of the information I have provided here is from researching the web, and reading the few postings at Westchestergov.com. Some information regarding the radios can be found here. If you need this information I have asked and received answers from Chief Volk at 60 Control regarding the System.

Goose

The System was not designed for portable usage. It was designed for response and communications to Control (or FD HQ). The Fireground channels are what are meant for portable (on scene) operations.

[Guest WCDES636]

It's alright i suppose. Coverage is spotty in some areas, esp with the portables. Other than that some dispatchers don't bother answering - i could care less but if you want me to use it at least answer me when I'm telling you where i am or going or my status. Dunno what the root of that problem is, we probably need more dispatchers (I'm all for that).

Why do you assume that the disparchers don't bother answering? If you are not answered........ you were not heard!

[Remember585 815]

1. The system was NOT designed to support portable radio communications. It was designed for mobile radio use. If you are using the portables and hoping for coverage, you may get it, but don't hold your breath waiting on it.

2. The incident Tanker10Engr is talking about was a FIRE GROUND channel - not a TRUNKED CHANNEL. In this incident's case, they should of utilized an alternate low band channel, such as 46.42, or one of the Trunked TAC channels. The range was fine in that area and at that incident. People are too quick to blame the radio system when it is user error.

3. I've used the trunked system on both ends of the radio. From the dispatch side of it, I see little issues. On the end user side, there's some problems that may be attributed more to the radio in question and not the system. For example, when operating on our Marine unit, our transmissions, like others on the Hudson with us, are garbled. I think this is the mics and not the system, but who knows. It is a valuable tool, and like any other tool in the fire service it needs to be TRAINED WITH!!!!! It is a lot more then "Push to talk!"

4. As far as the south county paid departments - hasn't Fire 18 become a normality for those responding into Mount Vernon?

[Goose 188]

Why do you assume that the disparchers don't bother answering? If you are not answered........ you were not heard!

Maybe? If you hear that beep when you key the mic doesn't that ensure you have a clear connection to the repeater? I really have no idea - i assumed that they were busy with agencies they are the primary dispatch for, tried to raise them twice then gave up.

I know the system wasn't designed for portable use, but it seems every time im doing a job requiring the county radio and I'm away from my truck the portable is absolutely worthless b/c everything comes in broken. I can't be running back and forth from my patient and partner to the ambulance to get what i need (if that's the case) and i think its somewhat unfair/unacceptable that i would have to rely on my cellphone in some areas.

[Bnechis 3,961]

4. As far as the south county paid departments - hasn't Fire 18 become a normality for those responding into Mount Vernon?

Define "normality" ?

If the host is not active on it, then how much use is it to the MA units?

Not sure whats the norm to MV is, but when we had the storm last month and the NRHS 2nd alarm, I was running calls with Larchmont, Eastchester, Greenville and White Plains. I was being dispatched by 60 control on NR frequency as were EFD & GFD. I dont know about the others, but I never heard them on the radio.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

585...Fantastic post and I was fairly sure that the incident in question involved a LOS frequency. All too often when there are those that don't understand how things work it either is no good or the systems fault for it not working.

If there are those that don't get it or don't want to learn it..keep them off the units. Either they want to get with the system or not...this isn't always a democracy and its about public service. Put them on the shelf...let them whine and then see how dedicated they really are. Its a friggin radio...tell them to get over it.

In regard to the portable question....that's life. The system is set up as all systems should be that the IC is on a MOBILE radio. I understand there are circumstances in the EMS business where you have to multi task, but you have to take that into account just like every other incident input. If you need it that bad then you'll have to leave your partner, your patient...depends on their condition, if they are really that bad...I guess its going to have to wait until someone else arrives.

The beep doesn't ensure you have a "clear" connection to the repeater. It lets you know that you are on a channel and can proceed to talk. Busy signal means you've also hit the repeater but you don't have a channel and hence cannot talk. As far as having to use your cell...it might not be fair and I can even agree that it is pretty unacceptable. But we all know about the "its not fair" comment. And the bottom line comes down to the local agency if there really is that much of a problem and not soley on the county.

Finally, keep in mind that there are only so many telecommunicators on a given shift. If you called them twice and then gave up...the traffic must not have been that important. Far too many personnel out in the field forget that the radio isn't a phone line and that they aren't the only ones who have things going on. Be patient. If your traffic is critical to life and safety...there always is that word you can use...."urgent." Which going back to cell phone discussions....many of you with portables....stop calling in law enforcement issues through your portables for your municipalities! Use your cell phones, you know the direct number or 911 will take you right to them as they will be your PSAP.

[pjm1733 22]

Many of the career depts. (EFD, MVFD, NRFD, YFD, Others?) are not using the trunked system for incidents in there communities (because we have our own radio systems that work better for us). Last month when NRHS was on fire and we had LFD, GFD, EFD, SFD & WPFD in town responding to multiple calls (due to major storm), most have our radio and that worked great, 1 or 2 were trying to contact us on the trunked system, which was not in use.

EFD, NRFD & YFD set up there systems prior to the county system and in NR's case because we were told by the county that the trunked system would not do what we need a radio system to do.

On a more positive note, last spring we had a highrise fire requiring about 6 different MA EMS agencies. They used the trunked system and it worked perfect for coordinating that component.

Hey Captain,

Very interested in this incident, and how it worked out for you? I was off, as usual, and have some questions? From what I read from the original incident alert, you were very busy, and in the end it all worked out well. jc a tornado in the vern.

Who was dispatching the M/A units?

What channels were used?

If you were not using trunked system.

Why not?

And in the future could it be utilized better for incoming M/A units?

Were they using the same channel, as the incident working at the high school?

When M/A units where dispatched into Pelham

Who dispatched and how did the coordination go?

Phone line from Pelham Pd to 60, and then radio to responders?

I am quite sure all the Dispatch centers were swamped.

How was all the coordination between Dispatch centers?

Would a system like the police hot line or mars radio help communications between Dispatch/Call centers?

Especially for the urgent ones?

In know way is this bash, just looking for personnel info. And hope this generates good ideas for future incidents.

P.S Please no one talk about 1 county wide dispatch center.

Thank You in Advance

Stay Low Stay Safe

[Bnechis 3,961]

Hey Captain,Very interested in this incident, and how it worked out for you? I was off, as usual, and have some questions? From what I read from the original incident alert, you were very busy, and in the end it all worked out well. jc a tornado in the vern.

Yep we were. It started with the 2nd alarm at the high school (with units delayed do to other calls and flooded roads), We had 9 reported structure fires and about 20 reported floodings (including 3 or 4 with trapped occupants).

Who was dispatching the M/A units? What channels were used?

60 Control, NRFD F1 (for most, if not all)

If you were not using trunked system. Why not?

And in the future could it be utilized better for incoming M/A units?

4 years ago the county advised us that the trunk system (as planned) would not work in the southern 1/2 of our city and even if it did, it would not work as we needed it to. As has been mentioned before its a vehicle based system only, and that is what we had for the previous 20 years and we needed a vehicle and portable based system. So based on what the county advised, we developed our own system. It works great. It is basically the same set up that YFD, EFD, WPFD set up. and most of the career & combo depts are able to program it in there rigs. So when they come to us, if the switch to our frequence, everything works great.

How well would it work if we were on our ch. and they were on the trunked ones?

Were they using the same channel, as the incident working at the high school?

We have 4 channels. Dispatch on F1 (for all calls, NRHS and all others), but all units at NRHS were operating on fire ground 1(F2).

When M/A units where dispatched into Pelham

Who dispatched and how did the coordination go? Phone line from Pelham Pd to 60, and then radio to responders?

Have no idea, but 60 does dispatch for PFD.

I am quite sure all the Dispatch centers were swamped. How was all the coordination between Dispatch centers? Would a system like the police hot line or mars radio help communications between Dispatch/Call centers? Especially for the urgent ones?

Dont know, but it did not effect field units and it appeared to be well coordinated. 60 Control was able to get us the help we needed and every call was handled. Boy was I surprised when E66 and L32? arrived at an alarm with me on Union Ave. I was not sure till they arrived who they even were. I cant remember WPFD responding to calls in so. NR before.

[Raz 14]

I'll state that I know next to nothing in regards to trunked radios vs. the conventional kind, but communications seem so much clearer and more reliable whenever I use the trunking system. I don't know why department hasn't adopted it.

[Tickfighter 0]

I'll state that I know next to nothing in regards to trunked radios vs. the conventional kind, but communications seem so much clearer and more reliable whenever I use the trunking system. I don't know why department hasn't adopted it.

LOL. From what I hear they don't even have an understanding of the radio system they have been using for nearly 10 years now. Do you guys even know what a fireground channel is there? You have to understand how it works and its benefits before even thinking of the above. Remember if you don't know anything about it, then it must not work.

[pjm1733 22]

roads),

Dont know, but it did not effect field units and it appeared to be well coordinated. 60 Control was able to get us the help we needed and every call was handled. Boy was I surprised when E66 and L32? arrived at an alarm with me on Union Ave. I was not sure till they arrived who they even were. I cant remember WPFD responding to calls in so. NR before.

I can only speak for myself, But im sure the answer would be anytime.

Thanks for the reply.

[Shantz02 0]

To add to what BNechis was saying about their high rise fire and the EMS agencies being on the Trunked system:

I was on an ambulance coming in from Eastchester to that scene and as soon as we signed on, we were in constant contact with every other EMS crew. The EMS IC had every thing planned out and we knew where we were to park, check in, and stage all before we had gotten out of our district. It was well run from our stand point, however, I was not part of the fire side so I can not comment on their communications.

As far as the storm a few weeks ago, I do know that all agencies that ended up in Pelham to assist were on the Trunked System, using Fire 18. All the calls were being logged by 60 Control and as units freed up, they were given a new assignment. All units on Fire 18 had an idea of who was where and what was occuring and I feel it worked out very well.

[Bnechis 3,961]

The EMS IC had every thing planned out and we knew where we were to park, check in, and stage all before we had gotten out of our district. It was well run from our stand point, however, I was not part of the fire side so I can not comment on their communications.

I was in the CP, EMS Command was standing next to me and the EMS side worked perfect on the trunked system. The fire side was on NRFD radio system and it performed flawlessly.