Upstate Volunteer FD considering hiring FF's

[Monty 35]

Came across this story at http://rochesterhomepage.net/content/fulltext/?cid=34691

There was a lot of concern at a public hearing Tuesday night over a proposal for the department to hire four paid firefighters. The fire chief said his department needs to hire four paid staff members, because as the numbers of calls has gone up, the number of volunteers has gone down.

They have 26 volunteers covering more than 26 square miles. The Chief reckons if they get 10 more volunteers, they'll be OK.

Not sure that I agree with the quote below ...

The former deputy chief is concerned that hiring a few now will lead to more later.

"Volunteers will stop going to the false alarms, because someone else is handling it," said Todd Allen, the former Fishers Fire deputy chief. "Therefore they now need to hire more paid people because one person can't handle it all. It's a slippery slope."

The article goes on to say that the cost would be around $200,000 / year and that no decisions were made at the meeting (there's a surprise!).

It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the months to come.

[Goose 188]

do it.

[FirNaTine 370]

No doubt they should do it. In fact if I was one of the 26 Volunteers protecting the 26 miles I'd encourage it and want to take the test myself, so I could get paid for something I love doing in my home town. Especially if I was personally suffering as a result of the weak economy. Once again though tradition prevails and many are afraid of change, even for the better.

Edited September 24, 2008 by FirNaTine

[gamewell45 258]

They might try to go ahead and do it. But given the financial climate existing right now, the if a referendum is conducted the taxpayers might nix it like they did a few years ago here in Dutchess county when one of the towns wanted to hire a few paid firefighters.

[firecapt32 282]

Somehow i don't think $200,000.00 will be enough with pay and benefits.

[ja3kfd 34]

Does it have to go to a public vote?

I have been researching some of the NYS laws on fire districts, fire departments, fire departments with contracts to towns and so far I have not read that it needed to come to a vote.

I am sure I have not read everything yet so that is why I am asking.

[FFPCogs 863]

I'm all for putting paid FFs on when they are needed..and it appears they are, but as also mentioned 10 more volunteers would also help the situation. Maybe an concerted recruitment drive or redefinition of membership requirements may help fill those volunteer slots. My advice would be to pursue both avenues aggressively..even if the positions are filled with paid personnel...10 or more active volunteers surely wouldn't hurt either.

My $.02

Cogs

[Guest alsfirefighter]

One key thing I pick up on a couple of comments that stands out to me.

1.

10 more volunteers would also help the situation.

Would? or Will? The next comment could be we "should" have hired professional staff. Hiring career staff "WILL" help the situation right now. Why not hire them and try to get 10 quality volunteers through recruitment. Which in most experiences means you will have to recruit 30 to find 10. When things come down to it, I'd rather know something is responsding instead of hoping that the 10 I thought would fix the problem will respond or not.

2. The public referendum. I didn't say much about it when it came up in another topic...however with comments like:

"Volunteers will stop going to the false alarms, because someone else is handling it," said Todd Allen, the former Fishers Fire deputy chief. "Therefore they now need to hire more paid people because one person can't handle it all. It's a slippery slope."

I wonder why the public goes against them. Lets face fact..some aren't necessarily into the lobbying for career staff no matter how much its needed. Pride for some reason and mental blocks have a lot to do with it and I'll leave it at that. Nice leadership on public safety their DC. That's a great reason why you shouldn't look into bettering and stabilizing your response with career personnel.

[FFPCogs 863]

"Volunteers will stop going to the false alarms, because someone else is handling it," said Todd Allen, the former Fishers Fire deputy chief. "Therefore they now need to hire more paid people because one person can't handle it all. It's a slippery slope.

"

It has and does happen that once career staff is in place, the need for more paid people increases over time. I'm not saying that paid personnel aren't needed, and without exception I DO NOT advocate refusing to hire personnel when they are needed simply to remain "all" volunteer. Public safety should ALWAYS be the paramount concern...anyone who doesn't think so needs to find somewhere else to hang their helmet.

What I am saying is that IF volunteers can meet the needs of the community than there is no need hire firefighters and incur the associated costs. You may not agree with the former DCs thinking, but his concerns are valid from a volunteer point of view, and this is a volunteer fire dept we're talking about. Like I said his point has been known to occur and has to some extent influenced volunteer concerns about hiring FFs. Career personnel sometimes seem to forget that in situations like this they are employees of a volunteer fire dept, and the needs and concerns of those volunteers may take precedence. There are very different factors involved between paid firefighters in an all career dept vs those in a volunteer or combination system which those employees have to recognize and accept. And like it or not...right or wrong the concerns, emotions and opinions of volunteers potentially affected by this change will have an impact, and must be addressed along with the needs of the community. Unfortunately there are plenty of times when FFs have been hired into a volunteer FD and the career vs volunteer issue eventually rears it's ugly head.

As is obvious by many of my other posts on this site I consider the hiring of FFs to be a last resort for a volunteer FD..but never...Never...NEVER at the expense of public safety.

Another $.02

Cogs

[Tickfighter 0]

The heck with that pink elephant in the middle of the room! God forbid municipalities do something to better its people, they might step on someones toes or hurt their pride! Better hope the call for the automatic alarm that noone shows up to isn't a worker and a home is lost or worse someones life, because they can't change what happened- but they could have done something to prevent it. You can't go on the premise that "they will come if its a fire", its just ignorant.

[BFD1054 1,552]

Wow, alot of thoughts came to mind when i read this article. First was that i was impressed that a small town dept. is even thinking of hiring career FF's (nice to see), second was that this was a small article and id like to hear more in depth information.

I have said in many of my posts that i am pro-career (although im a vollie), so i'd love to see this dept. hire some career staff. Egos and pride MUST be set aside ladies and gentlemen! After all, we are here to provide a vital service to the communities that we serve and if we feel that we can no longer adequately provide those services, than we must look to new resources (i.e. career FF's). To the Deputy Chief who says hiring 4 career FF's will lead to hiring more down the line...AND YOUR POINT??? We can see where this guys thoughts are, about 50 years in the past!

FirNaTine...couldnt have said it better myself! If i were a member of this Dept., id make sure to take the next County Civil Service FF exam and to kick a$$ on it so i could be one of those hires lol!

Firecapt32...I was thinking the same thing Captain. I highly doubt they could pull off having (4) career FF's w/decent salaries & benefits for $200K a year.

It should be interesting to see how this story plays out and how this dept. makes out.

[firefighter36 52]

Is this 4 career firefighters to work 1 at a time 24/7, or 4 firefighters for daytime coverage? We've said it before and we've said it again NO ONE should have to work on their own,or even respond on their own.

[BFD1054 1,552]

Just looked up the depts website. It lists a "job opportunity" for a maintenance person (this was from 2007).

Also, their website states that they answered 430 or so calls. They must really be hurting for volunteers to consider hiring career FF's with a call volume like that.

http://www.fishersfd.org/job_opportunity.htm

[FFPCogs 863]

One FACT we all seem to be miising in all this is that apparently not the chief of said dept., nor I or anyone else here will make the choice. It's up to the taxpayers..the ones who will have to foot the bill be it the unlikely $200,000 or whatever, to choose. If those taxpayers choose not to fund 4 firefighters than it is they (and by default the VFD) who will have to live with that consequences. So while many here may believe that ONLY paid FFs are the solution, it may better serve the Chief, and the community involved (and any depts here in the same boat) to offer up alternative other than that of simply hiring FFs.

As has been repeatedly pointed on this thread public safety is king..so if the money isn't forthcoming than what?

Based on what little I know so far here's a few:

1) aggressive recruiting to fill out the magical 10 that according to the story will help relieve the situation (including incentives)

2) open up membership to neighboring districts/communities

3) recruit and train current town or county employees to respond during regular working hours on an on-call basis (with the attendant minimal compensation)

4) Reevaluate and redefine mutual aid agreements

Anyone else?

Cogs

[22 Truck 6]

Is this 4 career firefighters to work 1 at a time 24/7, or 4 firefighters for daytime coverage? We've said it before and we've said it again NO ONE should have to work on their own,or even respond on their own.

While this is just in the beginning stages, not much has been released about how they would staff.

I can tell you that Fishers Fire District is not a volunteer fire department, they are combination. That posting from 2007 was used to hire 2 career "firefighters", ahem, administrators. These two work the weekday shift together for most of the shift; I think its like one is on from 7a-6p and the other is on 10a-3p at the same time, then they switch the rotation each month; not positive on those exact hours.

The Fishers Fire District is unique. While they may only do 430 runs a year, they have a huge amount of responsibility. They cover a MAJOR shopping area, including a very large mall. They get a lot of good crashes on their back roads. It is a very wealthy community, covering large homes, and they also are first due to a good portion of the NYS thruway as Exit 45 is in their first due. That's a lot of responsibility, and to put that all on the shoulders of the 26 active volunteers can be taxing, but doable.

As for the neighboring districts to Fishers, I know a couple (VERY solid departments) aren't exactly thrilled with FFD's manpower situation.

IMO, additional career staff in this growing community seems like the best course of action. They do have some dedicated volunteers and my hat is off to them, but they could use a hand. All too often, Fishers' rigs are getting out with only a few guys. They are fortunate to have Bushnell's Basin FD and Victor FD nearby to assist in their time of need. Fishers' is growing daily, both commercial and residential; their call volume is only going to go up.

[firefighter36 52]

Cogs,

I'll bite.

Based on what little I know so far here's a few:

1) aggressive recruiting to fill out the magical 10 that according to the story will help relieve the situation (including incentives)

We see how "incentives" aren't helping the recruiting situations, or aren't recruiting the right people (look at the benefits post and problems statewide with LOSAP.) I think that is more controversy than it's worth.

2) open up membership to neighboring districts/communities

I'll give you this one. If someone works in their district, but lives close, why not.

3) recruit and train current town or county employees to respond during regular working hours on an on-call basis (with the attendant minimal compensation)

This idea sounds like an idea straight out of Rural-Metro, and seeing as though they have lost alot of contract firefighting ventures, I'll take that as it didn't work all too well.If I was working for the highway department or DPW, I'm sure civil service would not be happy to find out that firefighting was part of my allowed work duties. Additionally, people who do this and get injured can end up in a hell of a situation with worker's comp. I also wonder why departments hire "janitors, administrators, & mechanics" If you're doing the work of a firefighter, or being paid for the other job to go on calls, you should be paid as a firefighter, and covered and compensated as such. It's an insult to all parties involved, and again, if civil service knew, I'm sure they'd tell you that it's against the law.

4) Reevaluate and redefine mutual aid agreements

I think Capt. Nechis put it best some time ago. Any department who cannot handle their own first alarm fire needs to seriously re-evaluate their situation.

While your suggestion to muster up a group of volunteers is noble, is it pheasable, will it work out long term? Or is it just another band aid to cover some bruised pride? I'm all for saving tax money, and it seems ludacris to have a paid department for a 400 call per year department in theory, but remember that we are in the business of what might happen, not what has or will happen. If they can't provide properly trained and certified volunteers to do the job, then they have to look at other avenues.

Edited September 25, 2008 by mbendel36

[FFPCogs 863]

but remember that we are in the business of what might happen, not what has or will happen. If they can't provide properly trained and certified volunteers to do the job, then they have to look at other avenues.

Absolutely,

But what other avenues are there if there is NO money (or tax payer willingness) to pay for firefighters? This department is not alone in this situation, and not every community can simply hire personnel, for a variety of reasons right or wrong, to solve the problem....so what to do?

I have no problem with any suggestion I may put forward being thoroughly scrutinized, and proven unfeasible, improper, or even simply ridiculous...but those residents and that (and similar) departments are still at risk.

I have found this site to be full of experienced, knowledgebale and commited firefighters, and it was my hope that others would not only scutinize my ideas but actually put forth some of their own. This issue is widespeard to differing degrees throughout the volunteer sector and as a firefighting website some come here looking for insight in dealing with it. Unfortunately hiring firefighters is not always a practical "band aid" for it either, no matter how much they are needed. So again...what to do?

Cogs

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Cogs:

I understand completely what your saying and I want to clarify that I don't necessarily disagree with the DC's comment. Just think that there is a better way to put it and some things are better left said behind closed doors in meetings. Perhaps he commented further that it is what it is and said that is a risk but we don't know that. All I know is that his comment is also a slippery slope if the people of that town don't understand the consequences if they don't have response.

Career personnel sometimes seem to forget that in situations like this they are employees of a volunteer fire dept, and the needs and concerns of those volunteers may take precedence.

As far as this comment...I have to digress. What generally happens is that volunteer personnel fail to remember that you have career personnel who are employees of a "fire department." Once you have career staff there is no such thing as a "volunteer fire department." Just as many VAC's in this area seem to lose grip with. The needs and concerns of everyone take precedence and again for some reason people feel that the needs and concerns of the volunteer staff should trump the health, safety and working conditions of the career staff that they are entitled to under labor laws, etc. I've never forgotten where I came from...but boy can I tell you that quite a few have on the other side of the fence. Whether you like it or not, when you are in a management position in a combination department you have to manage all of your "employees" in the same manner.

As far as the $200,000. I felt it was a little on the low side to, but without all of the considerations and what they may put on the table in regards to benefits who knows.

[firefighter36 52]

Admission is the first of the 12 steps, I digress, but I can picture a Fire Chief Standing up in a Fire Dept. Anonymous meeting saying "I'm Chief XXX, and My Dept. Has a problem responding."

I think informing and educating the decision makers (politicians) and the public on the gravity of the situation is the first big step. Tell the public that their lives are in danger, get their attention. Extreme? A bit, but we are in the business of life safety, and if we can't properly do our jobs, lives are in danger. The idea is to get everyone on the same page. (Easier said than done.) If people truly understand what is going on, then they can either step up and volunteer, or if they are as affluent as they were made out to be, loosen their purse strings and foot the bill. I remain steadfast that NO standards should be lowered (training, etc.) to attract membership, though I am sure there are ways to ensure recruitment and retention of competent personnel.

[Raz 14]

Career personnel sometimes seem to forget that in situations like this they are employees of a volunteer fire dept, and the needs and concerns of those volunteers may take precedence.

Yes, we all tend to forget things that aren't true. Career firefighters are by no means employees of a volunteer fire dept. That would be the very definition of a contradiction. They might be employees of the municipality that they work in, they might be employees of a district, but at no time do they work for the volunteer organization, although...wait for it, volunteers seem to sometimes forget that.

It has and does happen that once career staff is in place, the need for more paid people increases over time.

You're absolutely right, but it's not due to the "paid guys beget more paid guys" argument that you're trying to make. It happens because the issues that convinced that municipality to hire a paid staff in the first place are ongoing and cumulative. If the population is growing while the number of volunteers is stagnant, causing a town to hire personnel, what happens 10 years after that? Barring some unforeseen circumstance, the town doesn't magically stop growing. Now you have an even larger population, with even less volunteers as some of the guys who came around 10 years ago have moved on due to age, family, or relocation. It's not due to the paid staff taking over, it's because the natural progression of that municipality warrants an increase in staffing.

Everytime I hear somebody say "They just need to get more volunteers" I shake my head. That's like when John Madden says "To win right here, they just need to score more points than the other team." I'm sure that every town would love to snap it's fingers and create 100 more volunteers. That doesn't happen, and hope isn't a plan of action.

I'm with 22 Truck on this one, adding paid personnel seems like the way to go. With such a small call volume, the career FF's can run EMS. I'm sure that if the fire service is wanting for volunteers, the ambulance service must be in even worse shape. If we're trying to come up with ways to fix it without hiring, why don't they lean on some of the reportedly solid districts surrounding them, and cut their district into duel response zones?

[abaduck 123]

On a point of order, is the 'retained' system used at all in the USA? I've never heard of it being used in NY, but presumably it must work in some places?

By 'retained', I mean the type of system widely-used in the UK. A retained firefighter is paid an annual retainer - around $5,000-6,000 for newly-qualified FFs, I seem to recall - and paid an hourly rate when working or training. They're free to have second jobs outside the fire service, but must live and/or work in district, and must commit a certain number of hours per week - a minimum of 60 I think - during which they are obliged to respond to all calls. They're considered professional part-time firefighters and join the union. More than paid-per-call, less than full-time career. For the community, it gives a reliable guaranteed minimum response where the cost of maintaining a full-time career staff can't be justified.

It seems to me that this kind of system might be helpful in some communities - what do people here think? Would this work in the USA?

Mike

[ny10570 745]

I guess the closest to that would be part time ff's that I've heard about out west for some commercial fd or paid per call volleys.

[FFPCogs 863]

Career firefighters are by no means employees of a volunteer fire dept. That would be the very definition of a contradiction.

It so happens that I was a member of a (semantics aside) volunteer fire dept. which did have paid personnel paid by checks with that departments name on them.....if the VFD is paying them then they are indeed employees of that VFD. Those paid personnel were answerable to the volunteer Chief and officers of that dept. not the municipality. It was the volunteer Chief who hired them, negotiated contracts with them ect ect. Sounds to me like they worked FOR the VFD. BTW there are depts who have similar set-ups out there.

You're absolutely right, but it's not due to the "paid guys beget more paid guys" argument that you're trying to make. It happens because the issues that convinced that municipality to hire a paid staff in the first place are ongoing and cumulative. If the population is growing while the number of volunteers is stagnant, causing a town to hire personnel, what happens 10 years after that? Barring some unforeseen circumstance, the town doesn't magically stop growing. Now you have an even larger population, with even less volunteers as some of the guys who came around 10 years ago have moved on due to age, family, or relocation. It's not due to the paid staff taking over, it's because the natural progression of that municipality warrants an increase in staffing.

It is not always as simple as just community growth either...it has been known to happen that once paid firefighters are hired the volunteer ranks shrink..now I'm not saying this is right, just that it does happen. Nor should the potential loss of volunteers be an excuse to put public safety at risk by not hiring firefighters if they can be afforded.

Everytime I hear somebody say "They just need to get more volunteers" I shake my head. That's like when John Madden says "To win right here, they just need to score more points than the other team." I'm sure that every town would love to snap it's fingers and create 100 more volunteers. That doesn't happen, and hope isn't a plan of action.

Hope is not a plan of action regarding hiring people either..we can hope all we want that to cover any shortfalls or response issues a department will just get the money or voter approval (if required) to do so. I must confess that at times I find myself shaking my head as well when the only solution offered is to just "hire career firefighters" regardless of whether that's feasible, practical or affordable. And in all honesty I am not one that is fimly convinced that career fire protection is automatically better....more reliable yes, but not necessarily a better quaility of service.

I'm with 22 Truck on this one, adding paid personnel seems like the way to go. With such a small call volume, the career FF's can run EMS. I'm sure that if the fire service is wanting for volunteers, the ambulance service must be in even worse shape. If we're trying to come up with ways to fix it without hiring, why don't they lean on some of the reportedly solid districts surrounding them, and cut their district into duel response zones?

And after all of the above I too find myself clearly thinking that as it stands hiring paid fireifhgters is the way to go in this instance. The fact remains though that if for whatever reason that is not possible other viable, and positive alternatives should be expressed and thoroughly explored to best serve the community.

For me let me just say thanks for throwing out an alternative Raz.

Abaduck that is an interesting alternative as well and for all the talk of public safety being the overriding concern I sure there are some who would find fault with it.

Cogs

[firefighter36 52]

Let's hope that whatever path any municipality takes, they are not jumping over dollar bills to save nickels. I think the moral of the story here is that a bit more money to do things right the first time can save a whole lot of time, money and resources down the road with band-aid type solutions.

Edited September 25, 2008 by mbendel36

[gamewell45 258]

If people truly understand what is going on, then they can either step up and volunteer, or if they are as affluent as they were made out to be, loosen their purse strings and foot the bill.

Fat chance on getting them to loosen up their purse strings. The reason they have all that money is because they don't spend it. They want something for nothing and most of the time won't step forward to volunteer their time.

[Guest clamtown fd]

Cogs:

i have to add my 2 cents about alsff"s comments what we all need to remember is weither you are a member of the volunteer side or the career side of a combination debt we are all one debt.... we ALL NEED TO WORK TOGETHER not one side snobeling about mistakes made by the other but helping each other out... if you are inside a working fire and your other the members one the side you wish were more of or busy dont you want to know the others will be there for you....

I understand completely what your saying and I want to clarify that I don't necessarily disagree with the DC's comment. Just think that there is a better way to put it and some things are better left said behind closed doors in meetings. Perhaps he commented further that it is what it is and said that is a risk but we don't know that. All I know is that his comment is also a slippery slope if the people of that town don't understand the consequences if they don't have response.

As far as this comment...I have to digress. What generally happens is that volunteer personnel fail to remember that you have career personnel who are employees of a "fire department." Once you have career staff there is no such thing as a "volunteer fire department." Just as many VAC's in this area seem to lose grip with. The needs and concerns of everyone take precedence and again for some reason people feel that the needs and concerns of the volunteer staff should trump the health, safety and working conditions of the career staff that they are entitled to under labor laws, etc. I've never forgotten where I came from...but boy can I tell you that quite a few have on the other side of the fence. Whether you like it or not, when you are in a management position in a combination department you have to manage all of your "employees" in the same manner.

As far as the $200,000. I felt it was a little on the low side to, but without all of the considerations and what they may put on the table in regards to benefits who knows.

[x134 46]

Back in 2001 Pleasant Valley hired Career staff from 07:30 hrs to 15:30 hrs Monday to Friday, and back then it was $50,000.00 per man per year and they hired 3. Starting pay was $28,500.00 benefits included. With the increase in health insurance and depending what the pay scale is that number seems low to me also.

The guys are there during the day time because of Volunteers working. The volunteers cover the calls nights and weekends.

[OLDGUY19 6]

Put a Boss and 3 Firefigthers on ONE RIG 24/7 so they can respond in a safe and proficent manner. so atleast you have your first reponse covered.Then you work on all other avenues to get more volunteers. So then nobody is put in harms way the Public or the Firefighter.

[firecapt32 282]

What a concept OLDGUY--wish it was that easy 4 men 24/7 has to equate to at least 12 firefighters plus 4 bosses plus vacation coverage/and other time off ie sick time holidays comp time. There a lot that has to go into it.not saying that its impossible just difficult