Houston, we have a problem!

[helicopper 1,050]

Enough is enough! How many more condolence threads are we going to have to sign? How many more threads about horrible apparatus or training accidents are we going to have to read? When will we stop posting "what was he thinking" videos? Only we can solve this problem!

In 2005, the helicopter industry got together and said just that, "enough is enough"! They formed an alliance to reduce helicopter accidents by 80% during the next 10 years. Why? Because there were entirely too many preventable accidents. You know what, there are still accidents but they’re finally on the decline and everyone in the industry is more aware of the issue.

Today in the emergency services there are entirely too many preventable accidents in apparatus and on the scene. Are there accidents that can not be prevented? Sure, but they are few and far between. If we don't change our culture and hold ourselves and our peers accountable, then this problem will never go away.

What does this mean? We have to be proactive and either develop policies and procedures to limit behavior that is conducive to these accidents or we have to start enforcing the existing policies that are being ignored. I’m sure that there are rules requiring personnel to wear appropriate PPE on a scene. I’m sure that there are rules governing the operation of emergency vehicles. I’m sure that there are guidelines or rules dictating what is safe and effective reality based training and what is not.

Despite this we all see the videos of someone doing something boneheaded! Instead of videotaping an emergency vehicle blasting through a red traffic light, perhaps the buff should put down the camera and tell the driver to “SLOW DOWN”!

Officers or supervisors have to stop worrying about popularity and do the job they’re entrusted with. If someone is doing something that is potentially harmful, stop them! If you get complaints about someone’s driving, fix it! Provide them with remedial training, counsel them, or if all else fails prevent them from driving anymore!

We can no longer afford to condone behavior that exposes all of us to the risk of unnecessary injury. The video of a firefighter walking into a burning structure only to come out a few minutes later essentially on fire is mind boggling! Where was the chief? If that was the chief, where was the safety or training officer? If the chief is the one ignoring safety guidelines and recommendations for live fire training, should he be the chief? It is time for the majority who do it safely and properly to start holding the minority who skirt the line or outright do it wrong accountable.

If you’re an instructor (in any field) and another instructor is doing it wrong or unsafely, it is time for an instructor conference to fix the problem. We can’t just ignore it say that’s the way so-and-so does it.

We can also start holding the training bar higher! If 70% is passing, why do we strive for just 70%? Why don’t we strive for 100% and accept 70% when someone has an off day? Do we really think doing it wrong 30% of the time is acceptable?

When was the last time you honestly asked yourself if you’re fit (physically and mentally) to do the job that you’re being called for? When was the last time you qualified on your firearm, went through a mask confidence course, performed a difficult intubation, etc.? Could you train more? Could you work out for an hour to make sure you’re physically able to perform the task?

If our new president’s (like him or not) buzzword is "change" and his slogan is "change can happen", we can embrace the concept and take advantage of the opportunity to start changing so the numbers of accidents, injuries, and fatalities is lower in 2009.

It has to start somewhere so why not here?

[markmets415 524]

Excellent post Chris, you nailed it dead on.

[vtach39680 23]

Excellent post Chris, you nailed it dead on.

Thank you for hitting it on the head. we need to change the culture of what we do.

[frenchie477 2]

Great post. I completely agree. It seems the general attitude towards many of these issues has become so lax. Seems so many of our first responders have let their guard down quite a bit in all aspects and don't take it as seriously anymore. We're seeing the effects all around. We all need to be held to a higher standard.

Edited November 24, 2008 by frenchie477

[Guest pentax02839]

great point made.It seems like change only happens after someone or group are very seriously injuried or even killed.

[FFPCogs 863]

Not to be sarcastic but:

welcome to the fire service, 200 years of tradition unimpeded by progress.

excellent post Chris, couldn't agree more.

Cogs

[Guest pentax02839]

change never comes easy.

[tdc202 0]

Good Post Chris but maybe it's me and we've been down this road before. I agree with everything you've said but what happens in a couple of weeks when it's something else that preoccupies everyone's mind? I don't have the answers and I know it's up to the officers to train their people and keep on training them. Yes you hold them accountable . I knpw it has to stop somewhere.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Finally someone said something......

Chris....I could not agree with you more

[EJS1810 7]

Maybe accountibility is the key. There is another thread on here where a member stated his opinion that the persons responsible for a MVA should be held acountable and he was gang tackled and mugged. The accident appears to be lsimilar to the St Louis accident last month, 2 apparatus approaching the same intersection from different roads and it appears one failed to yield the right of way.

Stop blasting people who say someone should be responsible. Someone is responsible for each incident and if their actions or inactions caused the incident, they need to be held responsible.

[helicopper 1,050]

Maybe accountibility is the key. There is another thread on here where a member stated his opinion that the persons responsible for a MVA should be held acountable and he was gang tackled and mugged. The accident appears to be lsimilar to the St Louis accident last month, 2 apparatus approaching the same intersection from different roads and it appears one failed to yield the right of way.

Stop blasting people who say someone should be responsible. Someone is responsible for each incident and if their actions or inactions caused the incident, they need to be held responsible.

One perspective on all these apparatus accidents (the one's where two collided) is that if they BOTH stopped at the intersection, there wouldn't have been a collision.

The aviation industry doesn't look so much at the blame or fault but rather the chain of events that contributed to the accident. Take one link out of the chain and the accident is prevented. All we need are emergency responders to start looking at things the same way. What can I do to make this operation safer? Am I doing something unsafe/stupid/etc.?

If we start behaving this way, we'll slowly but surely start changing those 200 years of impeded progress!

[steve shryock 0]

One perspective on all these apparatus accidents (the one's where two collided) is that if they BOTH stopped at the intersection, there wouldn't have been a collision.

The aviation industry doesn't look so much at the blame or fault but rather the chain of events that contributed to the accident. Take one link out of the chain and the accident is prevented. All we need are emergency responders to start looking at things the same way. What can I do to make this operation safer? Am I doing something unsafe/stupid/etc.?

If we start behaving this way, we'll slowly but surely start changing those 200 years of impeded progress!

This has been addressed many times here and elsewhere. Even on the news some years ago they investigated the FDNY for it's SOGs for controlled interesections and they noted that the apparatus, even in full response mode of lights & sirens must stop at red lights.

someone posted the statistics of LODDs in a prior post I started in January about 2008 LODDs. It noted that 20% of FF fatalities were from vehicle accidents. HOLY CRAP!

Simple rule for all emergency services. We can't help the people we are responsible to help if we can't get there.

Operators have a high degree of responsability for getting the rig there and the person in the officers seat has the responsability to remind the operator of that in addition to being the 2nd set of eyes. This is a team effort.

Shrek

[helicopper 1,050]

This has been addressed many times here and elsewhere. Even on the news some years ago they investigated the FDNY for it's SOGs for controlled interesections and they noted that the apparatus, even in full response mode of lights & sirens must stop at red lights.

someone posted the statistics of LODDs in a prior post I started in January about 2008 LODDs. It noted that 20% of FF fatalities were from vehicle accidents. HOLY CRAP!

Simple rule for all emergency services. We can't help the people we are responsible to help if we can't get there.

Operators have a high degree of responsability for getting the rig there and the person in the officers seat has the responsability to remind the operator of that in addition to being the 2nd set of eyes. This is a team effort.

Shrek

Great points! So, we keep bringing it up but the problem remains... Maybe we're not doing a good enough job of training newbies or retraining oldies?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

In many cases I think that newbies are being trained amazingly well even in the face of certain other issues at least on the fire side we deal with. As most of you know I'm not part of the kindler gentler fire service nor do I embrace tradition totally, so don't take offense if some of this hurts...but if it does you might want to take note...

Most of the problem lies with the common sense stuff and regulatory stuff that go out the windows.

If your not trained at FF 1 you are not interior....your time will come and believe it or not there will be more fires stay out.

If your not 18...you are not interior, your time will come and same as above..there will be more fires...stay out.

Give your people physicals and fit test them...how hard is this really? I still have students that chief's signed were fit tested and their masks don't fit. Its your a** on the line in the end...not mine..you signed but how about the student who is there to learn the basics. 1. They could get injured..which is why I send them home to get fit tested and if they don't when they come back they are gone. 2. You are now teaching them its ok to look past regulations...which could mean your SOP/SOG's if you actually have any. 3. To me this shows just how much they are really appreciated for what they are giving back to your department and the community . (yes there is sarcasm here) I don't want t-shirts, hats, jackets and all that other ridiculous money wasting $hit. You want to give me stuff...invest in my safety and well being. Spend the money on physicals, fit testing (which you can get free call Westchester DES, which is the worst part of all) portable radios, handlights (give them a choice, not all of us like the survivor light as it points to the ground when on your hands and knees), etc.

I see some departments that invest more money into f****** chain saws and other equipment more then the most expensive and rarest form....people. We ar equipment and part of the chess match on the fireground. All that other $hit does nothing without us.

Knock off the bull$hit. Just because your XYZ FD and you don't do it that way here...chances are you're wrong and its not safe. I always love the ones at drills when teaching from opinion and not fact have to say that. "Well your talking about the "state" way or "book" way, we don't do that here. So what way is it exactly then?

Require minimum training standards for your personnel and enforce them. Simple "OSHA training" isn't enough and in most cases lets get real it sucks. People that are johnny or jane's come lately are a cancer. They are often the ones that cause rumbles in the ranks because they feel they are so good they only come to fires because they know what they are doing. Well chances are they are pissing people off, not listening to the officers because they know what they are doing and probably not prepared to deal with any adverse event or something out of the norm but manageable.

Have qualified people doing the training and spend some money to make your training effective. A projector for powerpoint, a laptop to let your people do their thing, spend money on one of the good curriculum's like delmar, jones and bartlett or even IFSTA so you have the basics out of FF 1 and 2 to give good lectures and then back it up with hands on training. Enforcement is key. Even if it is unpopular amongst some of the ranks, chances are you are doing the right thing and stick to your guns. The 10% who are coming up with excuses are the ones you are trying to protect. "I have enough time and experience to keep myself out of a situation where I might need to do ______ ." (window bailout, vertical ventilation, any other operations that some form of fear, phobia or lack of understanding can enter here). Actually listen to yourself and then ask yourself that if you were tasked as the leader of the FD, or any other business, military unit...would that comment make sense to you?

If you do not have any of the above...look towards your county and state levels to help you. YOU WILL OPERATE LIKE YOU TRAIN! If your training sucks....your operations will suck!

If you are overweight, have high blood pressure, diabetes, and other significant medical history. We have to do something about it. Find someone you can work with, be supportive together, or get your department in tune to supporting healthier lifestyles for members. If you have a physical and they label you exterior due to illness...you can pout...but at least someone else is protecting you from your lack of common sense. Just because you believe it won't happen to you, others will protect you in spite of you, and your warm fuzzy blanket of denial will not protect you.

Wear your seat belt. How hard is this really? I've said it before...no seat belt...no benefits. It is a safety device, no different then your PPE. If you can be denied a claim for not using available safety equipment in other incidents why not in MVC's with lack of seatbelts. Not to mention its required by law for a reason and its no shock that it improved fatality rates.

Anyone else got some other ideas I missed throw them up. Real fire service leaders and managers do everything they can to protect members, both during operations and in the station. Lead from the front, do the right thing. Talk is cheap...saying your a safety oriented organization and doing things to make it that way are 2 different things.

[Guest]

Chris, and ALS, well said. I feel like, of everything that can be changed, the seat belt issue is the easiest to enforce and implement, and will have the most immediate and direct effect on LODD. I hope, but doubt, that we will ever get rid of the guys who only show up to the live burns and structure fires, or the guys who think that because they learned it that way 25 years ago, its still right no matter what anyone says. But seat belts are always there, and WILL save lives. In my department, if you are caught riding on a piece, no matter whether we are responding, returning, or just on the air, its an immediate suspension, usually at least two weeks. If you aren't willing to protect your own life, then why should you be entrusted with the lives of civilians and other firefighters? It only took one or two suspensions for people to see that the officers were serious about this, and no one ever complains about it, its (un)common sense.

[helicopper 1,050]

Here we are just nine days into the new year and already we've suffered at least four (4) line of duty deaths (3 FD, 1 PD). Come on people, let this be the year we bring these numbers down!!!

[Guest]

Here we are just nine days into the new year and already we've suffered at least four (4) line of duty deaths (3 FD, 1 PD). Come on people, let this be the year we bring these numbers down!!!

is that include todays Boston

[pasobuff 38]

Very well said Chris!

I have gotten very tired of reading practically every week about a FF fatality, FF injury, PD, EMS etc.......

How many people get REAL EVOC training before they are put behind the wheel of an apparatus? More than just 'driver training' around the town.......controlled situations with obstacles, testing braking distances, turn radius etc.........

How many people have taken the 'Courage to be Safe' class, and/or the 'Highway Safety for Emergency Responders' course? BOTH are eye openers and GOOD classes to take!

Sitting in a classroom, driving a vehicle maybe once a week is NOT training! It takes days, weeks YEARS.....of constant work on your part to do your job well and stay safe! Learn from every instance - don't have the attitude 'it won't happen to me'.......

Maintenance....how many injuries and deaths are due to lack of maintenance?? Does a parachuter rely on someone else to pack their chute and hope the job was done right?! Does a pilot just get in the plane/helicoptor and just take off without checking everything?

In my first department, every Monday night the rigs were given a thorough once-over. From air pressure in the tires to fluid levels, to air bottle levels - everything was checked and RECORDED. How many people check the air pressure in their own tires?

When I am traveling down the road, I don't want to be the one who caused the accident - I trailer a lot, and always check tire pressure, vehicle condition, etc before heading out - do a once-around the vehicle - do a size up at the scene. Don't take unnecessary risks - if you don't get to the scene you do NO GOOD!

When heading home, take it EASY.....you made it through the tough part - get home SAFE! When I teach Fire Safety/Tenant Safety classes where I work - that isone thing I stress - we want the participants to go home the same way they came to work- by car, bus etc.....NOT in an ambulance or worse!

Not all accidents are preventable (As I found out Wednesday night myself)......but do YOUR part not to be a cause - drive DEFENSIVELY, don't take those unnecessary risks because 'we almost got it!'....be alert and get home alive~!

[helicopper 1,050]

is that include todays Boston

Unfortunately it does.

[msm232 69]

In many cases I think that newbies are being trained amazingly well even in the face of certain other issues at least on the fire side we deal with. As most of you know I'm not part of the kindler gentler fire service nor do I embrace tradition totally, so don't take offense if some of this hurts...but if it does you might want to take note...

Most of the problem lies with the common sense stuff and regulatory stuff that go out the windows.

If your not trained at FF 1 you are not interior....your time will come and believe it or not there will be more fires stay out.

If your not 18...you are not interior, your time will come and same as above..there will be more fires...stay out.

Give your people physicals and fit test them...how hard is this really? I still have students that chief's signed were fit tested and their masks don't fit. Its your a** on the line in the end...not mine..you signed but how about the student who is there to learn the basics. 1. They could get injured..which is why I send them home to get fit tested and if they don't when they come back they are gone. 2. You are now teaching them its ok to look past regulations...which could mean your SOP/SOG's if you actually have any. 3. To me this shows just how much they are really appreciated for what they are giving back to your department and the community . (yes there is sarcasm here) I don't want t-shirts, hats, jackets and all that other ridiculous money wasting $hit. You want to give me stuff...invest in my safety and well being. Spend the money on physicals, fit testing (which you can get free call Westchester DES, which is the worst part of all) portable radios, handlights (give them a choice, not all of us like the survivor light as it points to the ground when on your hands and knees), etc.

I see some departments that invest more money into f****** chain saws and other equipment more then the most expensive and rarest form....people. We ar equipment and part of the chess match on the fireground. All that other $hit does nothing without us.

Knock off the bull$hit. Just because your XYZ FD and you don't do it that way here...chances are you're wrong and its not safe. I always love the ones at drills when teaching from opinion and not fact have to say that. "Well your talking about the "state" way or "book" way, we don't do that here. So what way is it exactly then?

Require minimum training standards for your personnel and enforce them. Simple "OSHA training" isn't enough and in most cases lets get real it sucks. People that are johnny or jane's come lately are a cancer. They are often the ones that cause rumbles in the ranks because they feel they are so good they only come to fires because they know what they are doing. Well chances are they are pissing people off, not listening to the officers because they know what they are doing and probably not prepared to deal with any adverse event or something out of the norm but manageable.

Have qualified people doing the training and spend some money to make your training effective. A projector for powerpoint, a laptop to let your people do their thing, spend money on one of the good curriculum's like delmar, jones and bartlett or even IFSTA so you have the basics out of FF 1 and 2 to give good lectures and then back it up with hands on training. Enforcement is key. Even if it is unpopular amongst some of the ranks, chances are you are doing the right thing and stick to your guns. The 10% who are coming up with excuses are the ones you are trying to protect. "I have enough time and experience to keep myself out of a situation where I might need to do ______ ." (window bailout, vertical ventilation, any other operations that some form of fear, phobia or lack of understanding can enter here). Actually listen to yourself and then ask yourself that if you were tasked as the leader of the FD, or any other business, military unit...would that comment make sense to you?

If you do not have any of the above...look towards your county and state levels to help you. YOU WILL OPERATE LIKE YOU TRAIN! If your training sucks....your operations will suck!

If you are overweight, have high blood pressure, diabetes, and other significant medical history. We have to do something about it. Find someone you can work with, be supportive together, or get your department in tune to supporting healthier lifestyles for members. If you have a physical and they label you exterior due to illness...you can pout...but at least someone else is protecting you from your lack of common sense. Just because you believe it won't happen to you, others will protect you in spite of you, and your warm fuzzy blanket of denial will not protect you.

Wear your seat belt. How hard is this really? I've said it before...no seat belt...no benefits. It is a safety device, no different then your PPE. If you can be denied a claim for not using available safety equipment in other incidents why not in MVC's with lack of seatbelts. Not to mention its required by law for a reason and its no shock that it improved fatality rates.

Anyone else got some other ideas I missed throw them up. Real fire service leaders and managers do everything they can to protect members, both during operations and in the station. Lead from the front, do the right thing. Talk is cheap...saying your a safety oriented organization and doing things to make it that way are 2 different things.

Tom, Great Post! But ya missed my favorite.... Firefighters with beards and facial hair, and the line is: " I can get a seal" ya right! The worst is chief's and line officers who have them and allow this. Wake up people, it's against the law to put a SCBA on with facial hair that comes in contact with the seal of the mask.

Stay safe.

[Guest]

Tom, Great Post! But ya missed my favorite.... Firefighters with beards and facial hair, and the line is: " I can get a seal" ya right! The worst is chief's and line officers who have them and allow this. Wake up people, it's against the law to put a SCBA on with facial hair that comes in contact with the seal of the mask.

Stay safe.

No dispute from me that its ridiculous to have facial hair and still expect to get a good seal, but is it really against the law to put on an SCBA when your facial hair comes in contact with the seal?

[Bnechis 3,961]

No dispute from me that its ridiculous to have facial hair and still expect to get a good seal, but is it really against the law to put on an SCBA when your facial hair comes in contact with the seal?

Below is a letter which is posted on the US Dept of Labor "OSHA" website. It confirms that it is illegal in "OSHA Plan States" (which includes NY, NJ & CT). To have a beard and wear any form of respirator (which would include both SCBA and EMS "TB" masks). So if you have a beard get off the ambulance and the fire truck.

October 3, 1996

(Name Withheld)

Dear (Name Withheld):

This letter is in response to your inquiry on beards, respirator use, and fit testing of respirators. As background information it may be helpful to state, in general terms, OSHA's requirements about the respirator face seal and beards. As you are aware, [29 CFR 1910.134(g)(1)(i)] states the following:

[(1) Facepiece seal protection.

(i) The employer shall not permit respirators with tight-fitting facepieces to be worn by employees who have:

(A) Facial hair that comes between the sealing surface of the facepiece and the face or that interferes with valve function; or

(B ) Any condition that interferes with the face-to-facepiece seal or valve function.]

This requirement applies to both negative or positive pressure respiratory protective devices that rely on the principle of forming a face to facepiece seal.

Beard growth at points where the seal with the face and respirator occurs is a condition that has been shown by numerous studies to prevent a good face seal. Copies of relevant articles documenting this have been enclosed. Thus an employer using a respirator to protect an employee with a growth of beard where the seal is compromised by the beard growth is violating [29 CFR 1910.134(g)(1)(i)(A)]. The OSHA standard does allow beards with the use of respirators that do not rely on a tight facepiece seal between the respirator inlet covering and the underlying skin (i.e., both loose fitting helmets and hoods are acceptable in this regard).

In response to your list of questions, the following is provided:

1. If a hospital had a policy that any employee that has a beard and can achieve a good face seal may enter an "AFB" isolation room if he has documented proof of a consistent good face seal by quantitative fit testing, would OSHA fine or cite that hospital? Would that hospital be in violation of any OSHA regulation because of such a policy?

As has already been stated, it is OSHA's policy to enforce [29 CFR 1910.134(g)(1)(i)(A)]. Also, as already stated, it has been shown that beard growth prevents a good face seal. The regulatory language in the paragraph does not make any exceptions when fit testing shows that a good fit has been achieved for persons with beards. Also, seeing that facial-hair growth occurs daily and, thus, fit testing performed on a previous day may not be valid for the day the respirator is worn, OSHA cannot concur with your hospital policy as an allowable exception to the requirement in [1910.134(g)(1)(i)(A)].

2. Is there any OSHA standard that states that a person with a beard cannot be quantitatively fit tested?

3. Is there any regulation stating that a beard that does not touch the area of the seal (and the area of the seal is clean shaven) is not permitted when entering a "TB" isolation room?

No: if employees can trim their beards so that the beards do not come between their face to respirator seals or interfere with respirator-valve function, then their use of the respirators would be acceptable provided they passed a proper fit test.

4. If OSHA is requiring an employer to abuse an employee's civil rights by forcing an employee to shave his beard or be fired - shouldn't OSHA require the employer to provide a positive pressure hood system instead?

The current 29 CFR 1910.134 respiratory protection standard requires that the respirator be certified by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH), be appropriate for the intended use, and provide adequate protection against the hazardous exposure. The standard does not require the employer to provide a more protective respirator if its use is not warranted by the hazardous exposure.

We hope these answers satisfactorily address your questions. If you have any other comments or concerns, please contact the Office of Health Compliance Assistance at [(202) 693-2190].

Sincerely,

John B. Miles, Jr., Director

Directorate of Compliance Programs

[jack10562 414]

Something else to consider: In the event something "bad" were to happen to an individual wearing an approved respirator in violation of the OSHA facial hair / fit requirements, the department and it's officers responsible for their "employees" safety could be held liable for any injuries to said individual, for allowing improper respirator use.

Be responsible for your own safety, and watch out for others, as well.