Protective Hoods - Yay or Nay

[Scottyk107 9]

For one, you can tell how much heat you're coming up against by the amount of fire in front of you. If everything down the hall is roaring, good chance it's hot. Another indicator is the smoke. You've got to be able to read it and know if things are getting worse or better. If smoke is coming at you with force and a tremendous amount of heat, and maybe some occasional licks of flame - crack the knob! If you don't have a handline, use a water can. If you don't have either, it may be time to retreat. Other indicators are your surroundings. If paint is blistering up, if plastics are melting and/or light bulbs are melting, good chance you're up against some heat.

Good topic.

Great info thanks for the insight. Just as was said you cant learn these things in the academy.

[FFFORD 27]

i never go in without it on...a buddy of mine got 2nd degree burns from not wearing one...

[mfc2257 464]

PLEASE everyone who is an interior FF... wear your hood up over your head EVERY time you're in a fire, on a roof, etc.

Some of the saltier guys that are on here are right, they've never had an issue and the tops of their ears have served them well over the years as a barometer on how hot is too hot.

BUT

What many aren't taking into consideration here is that there are other people and other factors at work on the fire ground than just you, your ears, and your instincts. What happens if the truck company opens up at the wrong place at the wrong time and you get caught in a blowtorch.... What happens when the second due engine accidentally places an opposing 2.5 inch line against your 1.75 inch line and blows a wall of fire in your face.... What happens if you go through the roof or floor and are struggling to self extricate will you have time to "hood up"... nope. Also please don't underestimate the power that adrenalin has over your senses. When conditions are deteriorating rapidly and your body is pumping copious amounts of adrenalin into your system, your trusty ole ears will probably ignore the heat.... The same way a crab will start jettisoning legs/claws to keep its core warm when it lands on the deck of a fishing boat in sub-freezing temps…. When it really hits the fan, your brain will ignore your ears and it will be too late.

Not pointing fingers at anyone, just stating what I believe to be the stronger argument and that is to wear it all the time.

[x134 46]

Great info thanks for the insight. Just as was said you cant learn these things in the academy.

Just a few things I wanted to add. Color of smoke tells you allot. Visibility in the building tells you some things. Smoke condition as in, how far it is banked down and how much heat is accompanied with it. If you are not sure how hot it is because of so called encapsulation I.E. GEAR. Pull your wristlet back and put your hand up in the air, a little bare skin will tell you the difference. The TIC is a great tool. But it is just that, A TOOL. Don't forget the basics.BE SAFE AND STAY LOW !

Edited February 18, 2009 by x134

[pfdff 10]

Good post Rock

[Guest alsfirefighter]

So we debate this yet again. This is not that hard. Wear your F&(Hing hood. However as I've stated in prior threads on this topic on this site it also can be a generational thing. My dad would not wear one and I wouldn't really force it on him being he wasn't in the generation who trained with it on all the time. I got him one, he wore it in one fire and handed it back to me after we got out. I constantly had to tell him "dad hold up a sec" and at one point told him that it was no good to get in any further without a line. With that he also admitted that while he got in a little too far, that you can get in a bit farther with the hood on then having exposed skin.

Maybe all you non-hood wearers who were intially trained to wear it can explain this one to me...Why do you bother to wear PPE if your going to leave the area of your neck/ears exposed. We lose a lot of tactile sensation with our hands with the bulky gloves we wear...hell lets not wear them too! Also I ask that all your non-hood guys please find me one article or LODD with the use of a hood is cited as a reason as to why a firefighter got into the situation by over extending into an area. If you do that will be great...and then we can try to find out further facts, which has been my experience that it was when departments started issuing hoods to firefighters whom had never worn one, never even trained with one and then all of a sudden slapped it on for the first time at a job looking for the same "feel" indicators they were used to only to have them happen a bit later in the game and not even paying attention to the other stimuli out there that we look for. Ever wonder why fire behavior is such a hot lesson for FF 1 and several other curriculums!

Do you wear your seat belt in the car? Wanted to have protected sex so you wore a condom right?

Here's another question for you that I've seen out there and hear talked about..."I wear my hood but I leave one ear out."

Riiiiight.

So do you put your seatbelt only over your left shoulder but not click it in? Did you have "protected sex" and put the condom only over the head?

That's right up there with medics, nurses and doctors who put on medical gloves and rip a finger off to feel for a vein...what the hell is the sense in that?

You can feel heat through a hood. Nothing pisses me off more then a firefighter with 2 days and with today's kids 2 seconds in the fire service asking me if they had to wear their hoods because "they suck" as one kid told me at his very first live burn during FF 1. Train with any piece of equipment and you'll get used to it. Final thought...do as your trained and practice!

If there is live active fire in a room...guess what....its hot! If you honestly feel for some reason that someone could be viable in the room...remember...5' max and stay on the floor and sweep with a tool and take a peak with the TIC if you have it with you.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I wear it but I can see the argument of why some people don't. With all the new materials (of turnout gear) and protective equipment you can sometimes get too deep for your own good. I guess the logic is when you ears start burning its time to think about a way out.

Not directly at you personally...however...the time to start thinking about a way out is the minute that you step off the apparatus and do your personal size up.

Your hood is most likely made of the same material as your turnouts so burnt ears would be the least of your problems.

I would venture to say that anything burnt on me is a problem. Then I wouldn't be as good looking as I am.

In all seriousness for those that read these for insight...your hood often is made of the same "material" as your PPE but this is a invalid argument. It is apples and oranges as the material is the same as your outer shell and your hood and PPE do not protect you in the same way. Your PPE has 3 layers...the biggest one that protects you is your quilted inner liner that traps air as well as the air that gets trapped between each layer. Your hood is either 2 or 3 ply of the same material and is not quilted.

Also why do some point out "when your ears start burning?" Who the hell waits for this? Have my ears started burning through a hood...hell yes...but I wasn't waiting for it...it has occurred when conditions changed rapidly and I adapted to it...I didn't put myself in that position and you get heat through the hood as explained with the fact that it doesn't offer the same protection as your PPE. That is why you feel heat on your ears still and not other areas of your body. And someone graciously pointed out..stick your hand up in the air slowly

The initial attack crews were exiting fast when we pulled up. When I went in with the nozzle I could feel the conditions around me with just my ear flaps down and knew it was extremely hot in there. I stayed about 5 foot in the door and hit the fire while the others vented the building enough for me to advance the line. Turned out to be a building with plastic log facing on the walls, fake stuff to make it look like a log cabin, and the heat put off was intense enough to burn through 2 other guys hoods because they ran in and got too deep before the hoods finally started to fail them and their ears were raw. I felt it early enough to stay out until vented.

Moose, we always agree for the most part..but think about what you would have experienced without the hood on...perhaps the conditions weren't that way when they arrived and they had to back out. Perhaps they didn't have enough flow and got over zealous without horizontal venitilation either. So to me their hoods didn't fail...it protected them and perhaps their tactics were not that sound. Your indicator was more probably that they were exiting fast then not having your hood on. Sometimes overextending really has nothing to do with whether you have a hood on or not...its just plain out crappy tactics.

[MH0109 1]

Our Policy states Hood on and ear-flaps down every time we operate at structural, dumpster, or vehicle fires period.

[foreman1923 22]

My policies say the same thing but i know alotta of guys including myself that dont always follow that rule dangerous yes but you get more of a feel for the fire with out a hood then you do with a hood i dont know just my reasoning

[Guest Firediver]

Hood up, flaps down, no talking on the line!!

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

I think there is some indirect proof that members being completly encapsulated in PPE has led to fatalities and severe burn injuries. Members have found themselves deep in a bldg and been caught in a flashover they never saw coming. Am I saying that having the hood down would have made a difference, who knows, but if they began to feel a great deal of heat and their ears began to tingle maybe they would of reacted. I personally don my hood and usually keep it in the down position when working in the ladder company. I feel I can quage conditions as I conduct my search and attempt to locate the seat of the fire. Sometimes conditions are such that the only sense we can rely on is the degree of heat coming from a direction of travel (fire proof bldgs for ex.) Personal preference I quess but I have never had a major issue. When working in an engine company operating the line the hood is up and the flaps are down to protect against the steam. I am not debating the effectivness of our PPE, but I feel in some instances its too good and can get guys in trouble, especially newer guys who lack the ability to read conditions on the fireground. The gear makes them feel invinsible and they march into situations, unknowingly at times, completly encapsulated and oblivious to their surroundings.

[FFPCogs 863]

I think there is some indirect proof that members being completly encapsulated in PPE has led to fatalities and severe burn injuries. Members have found themselves deep in a bldg and been caught in a flashover they never saw coming. Am I saying that having the hood down would have made a difference, who knows, but if they began to feel a great deal of heat and their ears began to tingle maybe they would of reacted. I personally don my hood and usually keep it in the down position when working in the ladder company. I feel I can quage conditions as I conduct my search and attempt to locate the seat of the fire. Sometimes conditions are such that the only sense we can rely on is the degree of heat coming from a direction of travel (fire proof bldgs for ex.) Personal preference I quess but I have never had a major issue. When working in an engine company operating the line the hood is up and the flaps are down to protect against the steam. I am not debating the effectivness of our PPE, but I feel in some instances its too good and can get guys in trouble, especially newer guys who lack the ability to read conditions on the fireground. The gear makes them feel invinsible and they march into situations, unknowingly at times, completly encapsulated and oblivious to their surroundings.

Exactly

[16fire5 693]

I think there is some indirect proof that members being completly encapsulated in PPE has led to fatalities and severe burn injuries. Members have found themselves deep in a bldg and been caught in a flashover they never saw coming. Am I saying that having the hood down would have made a difference, who knows, but if they began to feel a great deal of heat and their ears began to tingle maybe they would of reacted. I personally don my hood and usually keep it in the down position when working in the ladder company. I feel I can quage conditions as I conduct my search and attempt to locate the seat of the fire. Sometimes conditions are such that the only sense we can rely on is the degree of heat coming from a direction of travel (fire proof bldgs for ex.) Personal preference I quess but I have never had a major issue. When working in an engine company operating the line the hood is up and the flaps are down to protect against the steam. I am not debating the effectivness of our PPE, but I feel in some instances its too good and can get guys in trouble, especially newer guys who lack the ability to read conditions on the fireground. The gear makes them feel invinsible and they march into situations, unknowingly at times, completly encapsulated and oblivious to their surroundings.

Was looking for the words but you hit it pretty well. There is a difference between a truck boss keeping his hood down to make the call to back out and an engine. The engine must wear their hoods period they may be called on to hold fire and will operate in as close a proximity to the fire as anyone. I agree with reading smoke and the TIC but there are some major flaws to the arguement. First of all most good jobs have no visibility and it's impossible to see something like rollover. The TIC is an awsome tool but it is not the miracle cure as some think. It shows the heat of objects and seeing the heat waves at upper levels is not always easy and maybe impossible depending on the camera but it does help in fireproof buildings. Searching without/before the line and having your hood up you can easily crawl past the fire but with it arround my neck makes it a lot harder to miss.

[eckyphats 0]

always, I am not a fan of having the feeling of a really bad sunburn for a few days- it sucks

regarding feeling the heat- I have a hole in my hood where it sits on the back of the neck a little about 3/4 the diameter of a penny..gives me a little heads up but my entire head is protected

[ny10570 745]

I've found better ways to check heat rather than operating without my hood. Expose the back of the wrist for a quick check and I don't have to worry about fumbling with heavy gloves trying to save my scalp while my ears are lighting up. Flaps are down, but thats more because I rarely use my chin strap. I keep the helmet ratcheted tight so with the flaps in the helmet doesn't fit. It goes back to my short time as a hardhat, not having a chinstrap. The strapless helmet has survived bailout training, but its a habit that needs to be broken.

[x134 46]

always, I am not a fan of having the feeling of a really bad sunburn for a few days- it sucks

regarding feeling the heat- I have a hole in my hood where it sits on the back of the neck a little about 3/4 the diameter of a penny..gives me a little heads up but my entire head is protected

That hood is now no good to you. You can now check the oil in your car with it. That hole no matter how big compromises that garment and will not be as effective god forbid if you get into a situation.

[robert benz 344]

how ironic this happened yesterday, firefighter wearing his hood, ear flaps down, and was caught in a mini backdraft, (fire started in basement , traveled the ductwork, blewdown the livingroom ceiling, member who got burnt was in hallway just outside of livingroom, not here to tell anybody what to wear or how to wear it, but this incident happened without warning, i was in the room shortly before the backdraft and there was minor heat.

[x129K 1,393]

Wow....that p[icture is worth a thousand words.

Posts like this and the ones by ALS, x134, and others make me think twice on my personal stance.

[Goose 188]

Good thing he had that hood on!! Hope he recovers quickly. Out of curiosity how bad were his burns with the hood on?

[robert benz 344]

Good thing he had that hood on!! Hope he recovers quickly. Out of curiosity how bad were his burns with the hood on?

2nd degree to his right ear treated @ jacobi and i want to say lucky, but he was wearing the hood to protect him from something like that, may only happen that one time but he is glad he was wearing it

[ex-commish 490]

From a personal experience I can tell you not wearing your gear properly can cause you weeks of pain and grief.

[x134 46]

Don't want to beat this thing to death, but I was looking at the picture that robert benz posted with the firefighter holding the hood, and it made me think even a little further. The gentleman in that picture had his wedding ring on, and that made me think of my wife and kids. I want to be around for them ,and see my kids grow old and see my grandchildren. And retire healthy. Just a thought. Be safe!

Edited February 20, 2009 by x134

[Guest]

Don't want to beat this thing to death, but I was looking at the picture that robert benz posted with the firefighter holding the hood, and it made me think even a little further. The gentleman in that picture had his wedding ring on, and that made me think of my wife and kids. I want to be around for them ,and see my kids grow old and see my grandchildren. And retire healthy. Just a thought. Be safe!

Excellent point, Amen to that brother!!!!

[16fire5 693]

I never wear my ring at work.

[squ1d30 3]

I wear it but I can see the argument of why some people don't. With all the new materials (of turnout gear) and protective equipment you can sometimes get too deep for your own good. I guess the logic is when you ears start burning its time to think about a way out.

or you can learn the signs of when its going to get bad and get out , personally i wear my hood and my earflaps, been burned befor, NOT FUN

[markmets415 524]

I never wear my ring at work.

x134 wasn't saying that the ring was a hazard, it made him think of another obvious reason for wearing ALL your equipment.

And thanks Capt. Benz for the real world graphic picture of what can happen, hope for a speady recovery for your firefighter.

[Guest]

or you can learn the signs of when its going to get bad and get out , personally i wear my hood and my earflaps, been burned befor, NOT FUN

how about learn the signs and wear the gear I know i want to go after every call

[firecapt32 282]

Capt Benz

Great pic I go t to see that hood first hand the other day the picture doesent do it justice--let me tell you that was one lucky member of FDNR to only escape with burns on his ears. This was a typical a 2 story home in a nice residential section of New Rochelle--as they say a "bread and butter" type fire. Things happened fast--good training and good instinces prevented this incident from being disasterous.

The one question I do have- Is Jacobi that much closer the the Westchester Medical Center?? Jacobi only has a burn unit while the Medical Center has the Burn Center with a class one trama center?? Was the patient transport a fd decision or a EMS decision?? just courious

Just glad everyone got to go home to their loved ones that night

[x129K 1,393]

Jacobi has it all....and I would think is closer to NR than WMC...at least a straighter shot.

[TCD0415 26]

how ironic this happened yesterday, firefighter wearing his hood, ear flaps down, and was caught in a mini backdraft, (fire started in basement , traveled the ductwork, blewdown the livingroom ceiling, member who got burnt was in hallway just outside of livingroom, not here to tell anybody what to wear or how to wear it, but this incident happened without warning, i was in the room shortly before the backdraft and there was minor heat.

Nuff Said........

Did you have "protected sex" and put the condom only over the head?

Thats Awesome............

Edited February 20, 2009 by TCD0415