Departments with no hydrants; WHY do we continue to burn buildings down!?

[x129K 1,393]

Somthing I have been thinking an awful lot about lately....given the rash of fires locally, most in suburban or rural areas, all have a common factor - lack of water!

I have been to more than one fire where we are standing around waiting for more water.....WHY?

IC's; why are we not calling MORE tankers SOONER in the incident?

Why are we not being aggressive in getting water to the scene?

Instead of calling for 2 tankers - why not call for 5? Go big early........

Any thought?

(PS - this is not about any department or incident in particular - it is as general as you can be - QTIP!)

[DCJPells 29]

Good Topic!!!

One of the things that is being worked on in Dutchess is a better definition of Structure Fire. Right now, a smell of smoke is the same as a report of fire blowing out of a building. We are working to get this changed which will allow all departments to do things. Thinking a higher probability of a fire and a lesser probability of fire is a risk management decision and how I envision it. AFD does not have to worry about water as much so front load the FAST or other resources as needed. Rurals can get the 5 tankers going, other Mutal Aid resources (Manpower). Place files can get additional ladders, etc,.

I am an advocate of working together, training together, regionalization and "gasp" consolidation.

[Guest EFFP411]

Good poing Chief. It's a question i have asked myself too as of late, one would think maybe it would be better to start the tones for more manpower and more tankers early and not need them, then wait and the be saying "HOLY C&@P" when youre about to run out of water. Isn't it easier to turn rigs around and send them home with thanks then have it be too late? Now I am just asking the question, and any enlightenment to it wil be better then my not knowing. I'm not saying any method is wrong or right, just Give me your ideas on the subject.

Edited May 7, 2009 by EFFP411

[Guest]

The other thing is how much water you actually need. I've never seen a fire where a tanker shuttle has saved a house. Generally, by the time the fire has grown to where you need a tanker shuttle to contain it, you can't really contain it... If you can't get the fire knocked with the tank water in the first engine, or with the water in the first tanker to get to the scene (now you're talking 2500-4000 gallons between the two rigs), you aren't gonna be saving much. This isn't to say that tankers shouldn't be getting on scene quicker/more effectively, but when you're dealing with non-hydranted areas, you're going to have long response times even for the first due units, let alone the second and third dues bringing their tankers, establishing the supply, running the shuttle, etc.

**Don't take this as a statement that these departments aren't good at putting out fires, I have no idea or experience with those departments. But the fires I've run in rural areas have either been found early and knocked with the first engine/tanker at most, or the first units on scene have a fully involved structure that is never gonna be saved.

[x129K 1,393]

The first 2 engines out around here are typically 1000 gallons at most.

I have been to many fires in the past 19 years where we had a good hold of it, were making headway, and had to back out due to losing water.

I am a huge advocate of calling ALOT of help early. I want my 5 mutual aid tankers pulling up to the scene before my tanks are empty - I want ZERO lag in water supply.

[x134 46]

Good topic Dan. Ok here I go, as stated before not directed at anyone or at a specific Department. I think there are many factors that come into play.

1 - Could be that Chief staff think they have enough water on the road in there own Department and have a mentality of "WE GOT THIS" when it may be too late by the time they realize ''WE DON'T GOT THIS''.

2 - When faced with a Fire Does the Chief or Officer running the incident have the experience and knowledge to figure # of floors, fire flow ,and the percentage of involvement and exposure problems to let him know how much water will be required.

3 -Size up and walk around, Experience of the hose team and coordinated attack with the vent team.

4 - Command having confidence in the fire attack crew.

5 - Placement of first hand line or Master Stream.

6 - The first 5 minutes dictates the next 5 hours.

7 - The proper line and nozzle to get the required flow to K/D the fire.

8 - Risk benefit, risk a lot to save a lot.

I can honestly say that there is nothing more frustrating than being inside and being pulled out two or three times because of water issues!!!!!!!!!

Edited May 7, 2009 by x134

[Guest]

1st off...Don't wait to call Mutual Aid. The sooner the better. 2nd, if your in a rural area...ie, no water, have a standard asssignment. In UV, 2nd alarm for residential is automatically 1 eng and 3 tankers. I don't specify who, just the next closest. Command has to be willing to think "outside" the box....if your waiting for the porta tanks to be set up...and a couple tankers waiting to dump....bring one up and nurse feed the attack truck till the dump site is ready. If you have manpower issues....work with your mutual aid and add an engine or tanker from them on first alarm.... No shame is asking for assistance.....the homeowners will thank you for it. As has been stated here before....much easier to return equipment not needed, than to get it in a panic!

[FiftyOnePride 100]

I have always been an advocate for bringing in more than you'll think you need just in case. Too often the perceived 'needs' of a fire or incident can dramatically shifted based on wind conditions/unknown circumstances/hand line placement, etc. etc.

On that note, our first two is rolling with theoretically 3x as much physical water on board due to our foam system, which greatly improves the life length of initial water resources.

But those without foam, I say bring in at least 1 more tanker than you think you'll need, don't be afraid to wake the guys and gals up from xyz department in the middle of the night, especially of something happens with a tanker or some water source.

Overall as others have said, pre-planning can be a great asset as well, pre-determined needs are easier to execute rather than on-scene assessments.

Edited May 7, 2009 by FiftyOnePride

[hilltophunter 1]

I agree it is much easier to return equipment than it is to have the dispatched when the water is about to run out. Like 51 said foam will reduce the water consumption and "buy" time to get the MA rolling in. What about the middle of the day fires when MA has response time of 20 plus minutes?

[markmets415 524]

Dan excellent topic.

1. Preplanning: we should know that we have no water in the area of the incident, i.e. seasonal, no water in area, as 67-1 stated, put the equipment on the road early and know your districts.

2. Get out to the County get your 2nd alarms and 3rd alarms in the CADS so all you have to do is ask for that assignment, instead of pieces units together by request, have it done before.

2. How many times do you hear or see in print we had no water, see you in court Chief, lawyers love this one.

3. Calling the right equipment surely helps, if you call for two M/A engines with 1000 gallon booster tanks because they are next due or 5 minutes closer rather than a tanker that has 3000 gallons on wheels is this ulitmately a better option.

4. As Chief Pells says lets be more pro active as a whole and train and work together more, have Wassaic train with Lagrange, The Valley with Millerton, see what resources are out there such as CAFS and tankers.

Our new tanker in the short time it has been in service has been M/A to Amenia, Millerton, Millbrook, Dover Station #1 and #2 areas, Pawling, Sharon, CT. and Kent CT. The calling departments know what it delivers, because it has a large pump it has been used as an engine as well. It was second due in Amenia last fall, as it is on automatic M/A with them on the initial dispatch for all structure type fires. It hooked into their attack engine so we had 4000 gallons for the initial attack which also gave time for the other equipment to arrive, they got the 5" charged and flowing long before we used much water off of it.

As an officer especially in charge of water ops, I want to know what I have coming, give me the two 1800 tankers but back that up with a bigger one that has 3000 gallons that may have a longer travel time but will be on scene by the time the two 1800 tankers are empty.

Preplan and call early, call often, we'd rather be on the road and returned than called an hour into an incident.

[cman473 56]

Very good topic. I have a nickname around my own department but its all for good use. They call me "Mutual aid Mancuso", We all joke, but this system is reliable and organized. I truly believe in getting the water in there quickly and the manpower on the road. I can turn it around at any time, which I have, but I have also called for more. When I assumed the responsibility of chief I also assumed responsibility to my members, their safety, and the taxpayers property. My 1st action was to enhance my 2nd Alarms Assignments and create and 3rd alarm assignment for the bigger incidents.

We had a 2nd Alarm assignment already in place which only brought in a FAST Team, Fire Investigation and CH for Power Cuts, fine for a quick hit. But what would go on when you decided you needed additional resources, you were already into your operation and may take that extra valuable time that you need for a successful operation and making it more of a "hairy" or close call situation.

We already respond with 7700 gallons of water (2 Engines and 2 Tankers), 2 Utilities and 2 Ambulances on initial, which in most cases will put out a good amount of fire. We have a NON Fire Hydrant Entire district and rely on what we have on "wheels" and are very successful with that, But this is where we may find the "what if" situations.

My second alarm now consists of:

FAST Team

1 Ladder to the Scene

1 Tanker to the Scene

1 Engine to the Scene

1 Engine for Stand By

1 Rescue Pumper for Stand By

1 UC Coordinator to the Scene

1 OC Coordinator to the Scene

CH for a Power Cut

Fire Investigation

Town Building Inspectors Office

For most of my fires, I hit the 2nd Alarm, I would Rather Look at them out on the road then not to be looking at nothing on the road and get that "uh oh" problem.

My 3rd Alarm is ( We have only used this once in 3 years)

Both Stand By Pumpers to the Scene

3 Additional Tankers, all with OVER 2500 Gallons of water to the scene

1 Engine for Stand By

1 Rescue for Stand By

Yes there is an added responsibility with additional equipment and manpower, but with coordination of your mutual aid departments and a well trained team, we have proven for a successful incidents with little or no Injuries and high rate of property saves.

I would appreciate any input on what you guys do out there and what would help me and my district. I am always looking for new Ideas.

[Guest]

4. As Chief Pells says lets be more pro active as a whole and train and work together more, have Wassaic train with Lagrange, The Valley with Millerton, see what resources are out there such as CAFS and tankers.

I think what Chief Pells states is absolutely KEY. As most of you know, I drove 47-31 to a fire last week. I've driven truck for over almost 30 yrs....but would have been much more comfortable if myself and a couple other people actually had the oppprtunity to train on this specific equipment. I have no issues with qualifying members from mutual aid company's on my equipment. It's a resource that is way under utilized. I've offered to several people that work in my town the chance to come down and train with us and get qualified. Work together people, we're all here for the same reason!!!

[EFFDCO4 0]

Great Topic.

All too often complacency sets in which can be dangerous. Never wait to call for mutual aid. It's easier to send the equipment home than have a full blown catastrophe on your hands. My district dispatches all district tankers to the scene and a 2nd alarm notification is immediately given by the first arriving officer (or firefighter w/ radio), if smoke is showing. And don't play politics by giving the dispatcher your choice of mutual aid - let dispatch decide what is best. If you need more water, just call for more tankers, period. If you need an additonal FAST, just ask for one. As for coverage, they do that too. The IC has enough to worry about.

Porta Tanks - drop two side by side as soon as the first two tankers arrive - period. Foam - use it if you have it.

As for the amount of water needed, that all depends on how agressive the crew is in attacking the fire. We recently had a bedroom fire that was successfully extinguished with only 250 gallons of water w/ foam applied from the first arriving engine. Great stop. But it doesn't always work out that way so you have to be prepared, have predetermined 2nd and 3rd alarm definitions in the system and make the decision rather than regret it later on. If you haven't made that decision to call a 2nd alarm within the first few minutes on scene - it's probably too late, especially if you are a tanker district.

[markmets415 524]

4. As Chief Pells says lets be more pro active as a whole and train and work together more, have Wassaic train with Lagrange, The Valley with Millerton, see what resources are out there such as CAFS and tankers.

I think what Chief Pells states is absolutely KEY. As most of you know, I drove 47-31 to a fire last week. I've driven truck for over almost 30 yrs....but would have been much more comfortable if myself and a couple other people actually had the oppprtunity to train on this specific equipment. I have no issues with qualifying members from mutual aid company's on my equipment. It's a resource that is way under utilized. I've offered to several people that work in my town the chance to come down and train with us and get qualified. Work together people, we're all here for the same reason!!!

Dave this is a must out our way, we work together very good as you well know and it is not uncommon to see M/A members driving or operating our rigs or the other way, we cross train alot with the depts in Batt. 14, I would like to see more with the HVNC Assoc. as well.

I myself live in Dover, if available I respond to their calls as I have offered my services to 36-1 and they have been accepted; as a former member I have been qualified on thier apparatus so I do on occasion operated thier apparatus.

[markmets415 524]

This was just sent to me speaking of cross training, Monday evening we did extrication using Amenia's tools and car fires using our engine and packs.

[abaduck 123]

I'd like to just pass on a point which is NOT made from my own experience, but which I've heard from more than one of my teachers: know when to give up. There's no point in calling every department for 30 miles around when the only real difference it'll make is how long it takes the structure to burn to the ground. The example I've heard repeatedly is barn fires. Sometimes you need just enough resources to protect exposures (if any) and perhaps operate a brand patrol. From what I've heard, that's something we in the Northeast are often not very good at coming to terms with, compared with the rest of the country.

[x129K 1,393]

I agree with all the points brought up - especially mutual aid familiarization...

BUT...for arguement sake...

Let's say, your department get dispatched for a single family dwelling fire. The IC arrives and finds a 2.5 story, wood frame "farmhouse" of good size, heavy fire on the first floor and heavy smoke pushing from the attic.

ALL of your apparatus is on the road, 3 1000 gallon engines, 1 dry ladder, and a rescue.

First due crews attempt an intitial attack, one 2.5 inch and one 1 3/4 inch handlines are deployed, and the ladder company goes to the roof.

Each crew has 2 members on it, and one officer on the first line in. The IC realizes that while they are making headway, the volume of fire is substantial, combined with obvious ballon frame construction, that they most likely will need more water.

You have no hydrants in this area, but there is a pond with a dry hydrant 1/2 mile away.

So.............what do you call?

1, 2, 3, or more tankers?

[FiftyOnePride 100]

I am gonna go with 2 Tankers and an additional Engine..

I am curious to see what others say.

[JM15 386]

Without knowing the details i would say call for 2 tankers to the scene and an additional engine to set up a water source at the dry hydrant. By the time they get the source set up the tankers would already be ready to get water. From there classic tanker shuttle.

[x129K 1,393]

Without knowing the details i would say call for 2 tankers to the scene and an additional engine to set up a water source at the dry hydrant. By the time they get the source set up the tankers would already be ready to get water. From there classic tanker shuttle.

Ahhh yes - but is two tanker enough to keep up with a uninteruppted supply, especially if the operation goes defensive and the ladder pipe and deck guns are put into service?

[JM15 386]

Good point. Not really knowing the size of the building deck guns and pipes would need additional tankers to keep up with the water flow. Any other ideas?

[cman473 56]

Ahhh yes - but is two tanker enough to keep up with a uninterrupted supply, especially if the operation goes defensive and the ladder pipe and deck guns are put into service?

Excellent Point! I say bring in the 4 and cancel and return what you don't use! If you are using pipes and Guns though, most likely you will use all the bit of the 4 additional.

[x134 46]

I agree with all the points brought up - especially mutual aid familiarization...

BUT...for arguement sake...

Let's say, your department get dispatched for a single family dwelling fire. The IC arrives and finds a 2.5 story, wood frame "farmhouse" of good size, heavy fire on the first floor and heavy smoke pushing from the attic.

ALL of your apparatus is on the road, 3 1000 gallon engines, 1 dry ladder, and a rescue.

First due crews attempt an intitial attack, one 2.5 inch and one 1 3/4 inch handlines are deployed, and the ladder company goes to the roof.

Each crew has 2 members on it, and one officer on the first line in. The IC realizes that while they are making headway, the volume of fire is substantial, combined with obvious ballon frame construction, that they most likely will need more water.

You have no hydrants in this area, but there is a pond with a dry hydrant 1/2 mile away.

So.............what do you call?

1, 2, 3, or more tankers?

This sound very very familiar to me! LOL.....

[Remember585 815]

One of the biggest problems with fires in Tanker Areas is the time it takes to A. Be notified of the incident and B. The time it takes for the apparatus to actually get on scene.

We're a Department that has a municipal water supply in about 1/2 our area, and no hydrants in the other half. We have split up our two Tanker Areas geographically to better respond to incidents in these areas. Anyone familiar with our neck of the woods knows the Quaker Bridge Area, which is to our extreme south, tucked in between Ossining, Millwood and Yorktown's areas. From any of these departments, it's a ten minute ride to most of these homes. We recently discussed the time it takes to get there, the lack of water, what we know as shuttle times and the fact that some fires aren't noticed until they're already through the roof and consuming most of the house. Playing the optomistic role, we now have it set up in the CAD to send our Full Department Response plus Tankers from Millwood and Yorktown on the initial dispatch of a possible structure fire in this area. Our theory is that we generally can put all of our water (over 6000 gallons) to use as soon as we get there, but the delay in awaiting additional Tankers always hurts us.

Our goal is to now double that water load with the two additional tankers right off the bat and hopefully increase the chance we can stop a fire.

To better work out this plan of attack, we are hosting a Tanker Drill on Saturday, May 30th. Participating (hopefully) are the Engines and Tankers on our 10-75, 2nd and 3rd Alarm assignments. We did a similar drill two years ago, and one of the things we did was make all of the Mutual Aid units wait the time it takes them to get into our area. For some of the Tankers they take 20-30 minutes to arrive, so this could have a signifficant impact on our attack.

Thanks for the topic, us Tanker folk never talk about this stuff as much as we should!

[x129K 1,393]

Tanker drill - great idea!

I have seen Millwood's years ago in Kiamesha Lake - that thing is BIG!

I wish Dutchess would use a 10-75 or similar designation for working fire as a response level.

[x134 46]

Size up ,size up ,size up! I think this is key in any situation. Evaluating fire conditions constantly. Having bench marks done by the county is a very usefull tool. EX..... Dutchess 911 to Arlington Command you are 10 minutes into the incident. Calling tankers early is key also. Any other ideas?

I think also if things are getting worse, Command bringing Firefighters together and reforming a gameplan so everyone is on the same page. I saw this happen in Lagrange at Patric LN.

Edited May 7, 2009 by x134

[Guest]

I agree with all the points brought up - especially mutual aid familiarization...

BUT...for arguement sake...

Let's say, your department get dispatched for a single family dwelling fire. The IC arrives and finds a 2.5 story, wood frame "farmhouse" of good size, heavy fire on the first floor and heavy smoke pushing from the attic.

ALL of your apparatus is on the road, 3 1000 gallon engines, 1 dry ladder, and a rescue.

First due crews attempt an intitial attack, one 2.5 inch and one 1 3/4 inch handlines are deployed, and the ladder company goes to the roof.

Each crew has 2 members on it, and one officer on the first line in. The IC realizes that while they are making headway, the volume of fire is substantial, combined with obvious ballon frame construction, that they most likely will need more water.

You have no hydrants in this area, but there is a pond with a dry hydrant 1/2 mile away.

So.............what do you call?

1, 2, 3, or more tankers?

I"m still going with my STANDARD 2nd alarm....3 tankers and 1 engine and FAST. Yea, might be making good progress....but Murphy's law is ALWAYS lurking....CALL IT....everybody want's to play!! Anytime I have reports of smoke showing, I will request 2nd alarm. I'm much more embarrassed if I don't have the resources to do the job, than if I have to return something not needed.

[x129K 1,393]

I"m still going with my STANDARD 2nd alarm....3 tankers and 1 engine and FAST. Yea, might be making good progress....but Murphy's law is ALWAYS lurking....CALL IT....everybody want's to play!! Anytime I have reports of smoke showing, I will request 2nd alarm. I'm much more embarrassed if I don't have the resources to do the job, than if I have to return something not needed.

I agree and would call that assignment adequate for sure....

(but you forgot to call a certain department last week....K! )

[TCD0415 26]

I agree with all the points brought up - especially mutual aid familiarization...

BUT...for arguement sake...

Let's say, your department get dispatched for a single family dwelling fire. The IC arrives and finds a 2.5 story, wood frame "farmhouse" of good size, heavy fire on the first floor and heavy smoke pushing from the attic.

ALL of your apparatus is on the road, 3 1000 gallon engines, 1 dry ladder, and a rescue.

First due crews attempt an intitial attack, one 2.5 inch and one 1 3/4 inch handlines are deployed, and the ladder company goes to the roof.

Each crew has 2 members on it, and one officer on the first line in. The IC realizes that while they are making headway, the volume of fire is substantial, combined with obvious ballon frame construction, that they most likely will need more water.

You have no hydrants in this area, but there is a pond with a dry hydrant 1/2 mile away.

So.............what do you call?

1, 2, 3, or more tankers?

I would go with 3, and this should have been done as soon as the IC got onscene seeing what you described. Waiting until his equipment got there and well into the initial attack and then realizing that he may need more water is usually the critical mistake and its too late........ Get em going early.

[Guest]

I would go with 3, and this should have been done as soon as the IC got onscene seeing what you described. Waiting until his equipment got there and well into the initial attack and then realizing that he may need more water is usually the critical mistake and its too late........ Get em going early.

I don't wait till IC gets on scene...if I have a member on scene, all UV members carry portables, if I get a report of heavy smoke, or fire or county has multiple calls......I pull the trigger.