Dispatching FAST and Tankers prior to the 1st alarm given...can our county do it?

[JohnnyOV 2]

I've been thinking about the way most, if not all departments are dispatched to a possible structure fire by 60-control. This is a 2 part question/discussion based on FAST and Tanker dispatch on the intial dispatch.

When a department is dispatched to a possible fire, its only that single department, with no FAST/RIT team, or Tanker operation if required immediately dispatched along with them.

No standing order from any single agency as far as I know of (or even the county if they have that jurisdiction), has a SOG that sets aside a group of their interior firefighters for a FASTeam prior to the arrival of a neighboring departments team. And lets be honest here, even if your department does an SOG that states which FF and when that FF will be assigned to a FASTeam, when was the last time you can say that SOG was followed? Why place FF safety at risk for an extra 5-10 minutes for the confirmation of a structure fire by the first arriving unit?

Tankers it is the same way, why wait until the arrival of a unit on scene to determine that we need an additional task force of tankers? If you cannot put a stop to the fire, or put a serious hold on it with the intial tank that your have as well as your own tanker, then lose your water source waiting for more water to arrive, you might as well call it a failed save.

To me, it makes the most sense to have on the initial dispatch of a possible fire, or any situation where a FASTeam would be utilized as well as tankers, to dispatch the home field department, with the closest fast team and tanker set up, rather then wait for everything to start arriving. What would it take to change the way the county dispatched departments fires to meet this idea, and could it even be done in our county?

Simply put in a dispatch would be (and i'll use my dept as an example):

"60-control to Yorktown Fire and Mohegan your FASTeam, 1200 Old Crompond Rd for a possible structure fire"

Then you upgrade it to the already preplaned alarm assignments after the first arriving units give their size ups. FAST is already enroute, and FF safety is greatly increased.

Remember, you can always turn them around if you dont need them.

[IzzyEng4 427]

As a dispatcher in my former life, I understand what you are say. However, I look at it this way.

First with the FAST / RIT dispatch, if you are not getting a confirmation of a working structure fire, a single call with little to no information, and AFA with no other calls, or from an outside pull box (the old telegraph bell & horn system) I can see why NOT to dispatch out the FAST / RIT unit to an alarm. As soon as you receive a report via phone or radio from who ever of a fire involving a structure (in, out or around) that FAST unit should be dispatched at that point by the dispatcher, not the chief, line officer, IC on a request. The sooner the better obviously.

As for sending tankers where there is no close water supply / hydrants, the initial dispatch should include at least one if not two tankers regardless if there is a confirmation of a fire or not. And of course they should be from the closest agency. Once is working fire is confirmed, the dispatcher should send the rest of the tanker assignment. And obviously if its confirmed right off the bat, the whole assignment needs to be dispatched.

I was lucky where I worked as all the run cards were set up with who goes where and it was standing orders (ie spelled out) to send the units with out asking the IC. We would tell them what they have coming so they didn't have to think.

[ny10570 745]

County will dispatch an alarm however you ask them to do it. For a short time in Pleasantville, any possible structure fire in certain no water areas automatically started out a neighboring tanker. At times when a ladder or rescue goes OOS depts will have a neighboring dept automatically assigned to their alarms as well. There is still the whole debate as to why and why not, but it is absolutely possible.

[fire55 3]

Simply put in a dispatch would be (and i'll use my dept as an example):

"60-control to Yorktown Fire and Mohegan your FASTeam, 1200 Old Crompond Rd for a possible structure fire"

Well, first of all, you have it backwards.. Yorktown doesnt cover any parts of Old Cromond Rd.,, Its all Mohegans!! Sorry Verg LOL,, You better invest in that GPS dude.. Otherwise they will have to call you Ferguson junior... Remember where Sparkle Rd is...LMAO

But I do have to agree with some of your post.. We really should be looking at things to save time on responses from the mutual aids,, espec. daytime!!!

[JohnnyOV 2]

Simply put in a dispatch would be (and i'll use my dept as an example):

"60-control to Yorktown Fire and Mohegan your FASTeam, 1200 Old Crompond Rd for a possible structure fire"

Well, first of all, you have it backwards.. Yorktown doesnt cover any parts of Old Cromond Rd.,, Its all Mohegans!! Sorry Verg LOL,, You better invest in that GPS dude.. Otherwise they will have to call you Ferguson junior... Remember where Sparkle Rd is...LMAO

But I do have to agree with some of your post.. We really should be looking at things to save time on responses from the mutual aids,, espec. daytime!!!

lol over 500 miles in our district and I pick 1/10 of a mile that is not ours, forgive me oh wise "Beck55"

anyways, for the other replies, when you refer to the structural assignment, are you referring to the initial dispatch, or the "10-75" assignment?

[ajsbear 11]

Except in the village which has hydrants, any possible structure fire in Philipstown gets 3 tankers alerted.

[xchief2x 79]

WE have added to our first alarm assignment in non hydrant areas 2 mutual aid tankers, 585 correct me if I am wrong.

Edited September 16, 2009 by xchief2x

[nfd2004 750]

I am familiar with a dept that had been dispatched to a building fire with all the signs of a "Working Fire". At time of "dispatch", the dispatchers knew it, the buffs knew it, and of course the firefighters knew it. On arrival, as everybody expected, "the working fire was given". No FAST Co was ever sent, although it is the policy of that dept. During the fire, two firefighters got trapped on an upper floor. With no FAST Co on the scene, other members had to be taken away from this fast spreading fire, to rescue these firefighters who were now in some "serious trouble"

In this case, the "dispatcher dropped the ball". Two Firefighters had to be transported to the hospital and almost didn't make it out of that fire building. In defense of the dispatcher, (who I have no idea who it was), it is a "911 Center" that answers all the 911 calls, must transfer calls for EMS and dispatch F.D., handle all police calls, and other routine calls, and dispatch all fire calls. One minute they are dispatching a "fire call", next minute it's a "domestic dispute with the Ex breaking in the apt".

I think in this case, two firefighters almost died because a dispatcher forgot to send the Fast Co. But people are human and how much can we push onto our dispatchers. In this case, there are two dispatchers on duty to handle police, fire, and Ems for about a 40 - 50,000 population.

Maybe sending a FAST Co on the inital call of a workng fire is not a bad idea. Just give the dispatchers enough help to handle it when the S*** hits the Fan. And don't expect them to be a "Jack of all Trades".

Edited September 16, 2009 by nfd2004

[Remember585 815]

Vergo, good topic!

Every department has the ability to set up their responses as they want them. As xchief2x said, we have made modifications to our assignments to better respond to a possible structure fire in our non-hydrant areas. Our initial response to the non-hydrants parts of our district are a full assignment from us (3 Engines, 1 Quint, 1 Tanker, 1 Rescue) and two additional Tankers (Millwood and Yorktown).

On a confirmed fire in these areas, two more Tankers are sent, a FAST, Cascade Unit, EMS and an additional Engine (MA) to set up a fill site (or 2nd one if needed).

As far as putting a FAST on an initial dispatch, it's been considered, however since a "Structure Fire" dispatch can be for a microwave or an oven fire, we haven't done it yet for fear of taxing our neighboring FAST. It is, however, still on the possibility list.

There's no reason, IMHO, an IC or responding Officer can't get on the radio and ask for additional resources / upgrade an assignment based on dispatch info, updates, known issues, anticipated manpower needs, etc.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Remember585

[Remember585 815]

lol over 500 miles in our district and I pick 1/10 of a mile that is not ours, forgive me oh wise "Beck55"

anyways, for the other replies, when you refer to the structural assignment, are you referring to the initial dispatch, or the "10-75" assignment?

I think Kenny is spending too much time with Andy!

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Requesting a FAST/RIT Company from a neighboring department is one thing, but there are very few volunteer (and even career) departments that can RIT themselves. Neither of my departments (one volunteer, one combo) can do RIT without mutual aid. Who has 6 guys to spare at a working fire scene?

As far as tankers, in New Fairfield, there are VERY few times when a tanker doesn't get on the air for a fire alarm, much less a structure fire. We have no hydrants so tankers are a crucial part of our response. At whatever firehouse is responding, the first truck out is an engine, and the second is generally a tanker.

[aacofd40 6]

Why do your departments have to special call a FAST/RIT Team?

In our department, if it is a working fire, and we begin interior ops, one of the units from the first alarm gets assigned as the RIT team. It starts with the 2 in 2out (the 2 out being the first unofficial RIT Team), and then as more units and people show up, it becomes a formalized assignment.

Now, I am not sure if your FAST teams have special training. We do save your own and RIT training on a somewhat regular basis, and every truck has a RIT bag (extra bottle, air lines, mask, hand tools).

So for us, RIT is an assignment that goes to one of the first alarm companies.

[x129K 1,393]

I am huge fan of at LEAST placing tankers/FAST on standby on the first alarm.

[ajsbear 11]

It takes time to set up tanker ops. If you put them on the road early in the incident all the better. You can always turn them around. If they are needed you've got them coming. Nothing is worse than running out of water and having to wait.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Why do your departments have to special call a FAST/RIT Team?

In our department, if it is a working fire, and we begin interior ops, one of the units from the first alarm gets assigned as the RIT team. It starts with the 2 in 2out (the 2 out being the first unofficial RIT Team), and then as more units and people show up, it becomes a formalized assignment.

Now, I am not sure if your FAST teams have special training. We do save your own and RIT training on a somewhat regular basis, and every truck has a RIT bag (extra bottle, air lines, mask, hand tools).

So for us, RIT is an assignment that goes to one of the first alarm companies.

To easily sum up your question, because everyone wants to be on the line, or searching fire floors in our county. (thats the buff answer)

The longer more winded answer is that every department in our county has X# of engines, X# of ladders, normally 1 rescue and a plethora of other goodies. All of the volunteer departments have no live in crews, which staff an engine with 4 guys and a ladder with 4 guys 24/7/365. It is a crap shoot in our county if any rigs will even get out the door.

That being said, special calling the FASTeam lets both the FAST department, as well as other departments know who will be doing what operations at the fire. Also each department normally has 1 rig set aside for FAST operations, and there is no set criteria what needs to be on a rig, to be the FAST rig. Bedford Hills's FAST truck, for example, is their tower ladder, while Yorktown's is a "rescue" Engine. When a department gets called as the FASTeam, 1 rig is going out, and it is that specific rig set aside for FAST operations. So for example I know that if Yorktown is going on a FAST call, I need to grab my gear, head to Station 2 and get on Engine 270.

As for training, the county/state do offer formal FAST training, and I will not speak for other departments, but for Yorktown you need FF1, FF2, FF Survival and FAST operations. Once those are complete, you start training with our team in house.

[Remember585 815]

There's also theories that, when possible, your FAST / RIT should be from another Company or Department simply because they probably won't have as much personal history with those that may (GOD FORBID) transmit the MAYDAY, unlike that member or crew's own FD. I can see the logic of it, but at the same time I don't think it matters to most of us, since we're all brothers.

Our SOG is that, at minimum, we designate two members to act as a FAST / RIT until the Mutual Aid unit arrives. While I know we always have personnel ready, willing and able to address this task each time, there's no formal designation of a team nor are they set aside for that task, they're usually doing other outside operations.

I personally would like to dedicate my third due Engine to this task, assuming the manpower can be designated for this assignment. If need be we can add the Montrose VA and their 2-3 member RIT to the box until the "larger" team from Ossining (or next due) gets there. I've called the VA once for this task so far and will do it again if need be.

[EFFDCO4 0]

Why do your departments have to special call a FAST/RIT Team?

In our department, if it is a working fire, and we begin interior ops, one of the units from the first alarm gets assigned as the RIT team. It starts with the 2 in 2out (the 2 out being the first unofficial RIT Team), and then as more units and people show up, it becomes a formalized assignment.

Maybe in an ideal world this will work - but we all know that the fire service is hardly ideal; in fact it's completely random when it comes to who shows up when. You cannot afford to 'set aside' able interior firefighters from your department as the FAST or RIT team. It must be separate. We operate in Dutchess on automatic mutual aid for the neighboring FAST team to all structure fire assignments. If they're not needed they go home with our thanks. We supply the same for them at their structure fires. As for Tankers in our case, our 3 tankers will get us about 9,000 gallons of water plus the 2,000 gallons on the first arriving engines. Probably sufficient until the IC arrives on scene and determines the severity of the incident.