FDNY Union Disputes Response Time

[Guest]

Union Disputes FDNY Response Times

Posted: 09-17-2009

The New York City Fire Department says response time for emergency calls is the fastest it's ever been.

Fire Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta says firefighters have responded to calls in an average of four minutes and three seconds since January, the fastest time on record.

It's 13 seconds faster than the same period last year.

Scoppetta also says the number of fire fatalities is at an all-time low of 44 so far this year.

He credits new dispatch protocols, which send firefighters out the door as soon as a 911 call comes in, even before the nature of the emergency is known, and better technology for the improvements on both fronts.

Still despite the figures, the Uniformed Firefighters Association isn't convinced.

http://www.ny1.com/Default.aspx?ArID=105841

[bronxfireradio 45]

http://www.ny1.com/Default.aspx?ArID=105841

Anyone who knows the details of the new dispatch program (Universal Call Taker) should immediately see that this is a total sham. Response times used to be measured from the second the Alarm Receipt Dispatcher at your friendly neighborhood FDNY Central Office picked up the alarm phone up to the time the first unit hit the 10-84 button. If one called 911 in NYC and reported a fire, one would be immediately transferred to an FDNY dispatcher in the appropriate borough. Now, PD call takers process the call - which, due to many factors, including lack of meaningful training - keep in mind FD dispatchers receive many months of training including familiarity with city streets and firehouses... meanwhile PD received 3 days of training - takes a lot longer and results in lousy information. That time that PD spends on the phone with the caller is not factored into the new "response time". PD sortakinda processes the call, types some crap into the computer, and it gets received by the Decision Dispatcher at the Central Office, who has to quickly decipher the garbage on the screen, try to determine whether it's a legitimate alarm, and send out the appropriate units. The new "response time" is measured from the time the Decision Dispatcher in the CO receives the stuff from PD, then hits the acknowledge button and sends out the units until the time the first unit hits the 10-84. Gone are the days when seasoned FDNY dispatchers can actually speak to a caller who reports fire to 911 and determine the most appropriate response. Now the FDNY has to deal with full Haz-Mat assignments for a gas odor.

I'm usually not a particularly opinionated guy, but this new system stinks. It's putting citizens and firefighters alike in danger. Response times may be less, but it's largely due to the lack of considering PD call processing time, and balls-to-the wall (excuse the expression) full first alarm assignments to what amounted to a truck operating at a water leak.

[16fire5 693]

I don't think the citizens are safer under the new system. On the contrary we have rigs racing all over the place on total bs. I'm sure apparatus accidents will go up. The members are not safer going in blind.

"Size-up starts with reciept of the alarm" NOT ANYMORE.

[JBE 328]

BFR is correct that the findings are a complete sham. I'm going to give you an example. We got a box the other night for a person on a disabled jet ski by the South Street Seaport. Fairly common occurence. Upon reading the text put in by PD after we turned the units out, the caller stated he was in the Hudson River near a small bridge. Mistake number one by PD, South Street Seaport is on the EAST River. Problem with the caller, he doesn't know where he is, as there are no small bridges over the Hudson. Mistake number 2 by PD, the ANI ALI (Automatic Number Info/Automatic Location Info) puts this fella up in the 120's in Manhattan, and they don't follow up on it. Nevermind the fact he's 5 plus miles north of where PD is telling us he is.

FDNY calls him, and asks one simple question, "What do you see around you??" He sees a small grey bridge to one side, and a large blue bridge to the other, when interrogated further, the caller states he sees a History Channel sign near him. He's actually in the HARLEM River, up near the Willis Avenue Bridge. 5 plus minutes into the initial assignment, a new Box is transmitted in the Bronx for the Willis Avenue Bridge, where the man is subsequently aided by Marine Co. 4. Do I really need to go on??

But I will. A few weeks back, Ladder 28 was dispatched to an address for a water leak in a basement apartment. Upon arrival, the officer of Ladder 28 asks for an Engine, and EMS. Yup, you guessed it, the lady in the apartment is pregnant, and her water broke.

Don't believe the BS being shoveled out by Bloomberg and his puppet Uncle Nicky. This system is a scam and people are going to suffer. Never mind the fact that PD could be on the phone for 5 minutes with a caller before turning it over to us. It is a disaster waiting to happen.

Edited September 18, 2009 by JBE

[Mark Z 18]

And of course the FDNY union is the bad guy for not drinking the Kool-aid! <img src="http://www.emtbravo.net/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="sad.gif" /> Nice guy this Scopetta! So in truth, the units may take longer with less information and without proper resources, and he's celebrating this??

[NJMedic 96]

Last Friday I was in Brooklyn for a meeting and as I'm driving on the Belt Parkway I hear the NYPD SOD dispatcher hit the alert tones and annouces

"In the confines of the ??? precinct a report of a water rescue........"

Now I'm think if the job is close I might be able to buff it when a few seconds later she says.....

....."person stuck in a bath tub".

I'm sitting there wondering "huh what the....."

[IzzyEng4 427]

National standard for the total time of a response starts with the initial answering of the 911 call by a dispatcher / call taker. Think APCO should look into this????

[ny10570 745]

Every week I have another half dozen examples of this system screwing the pooch. Only blessing/curse is that it always works out in the end. Until someone news worthy gets hurt or killed by this nothing is gonna change. How about the injury at construction site that no one knew was 20' below street level until the BLS got on scene. Had he been entrapped or in a hole you're looking at upwards of a 10 minute delay in getting any rescue resources rolling (even ESU was out of the loop on this one). Sending two ALS units out on clearly BLS calls while an arrest drops and now rather than 2 to 5 minutes for ALS it was more than 10. How about the drowning called in at a park that doesn't have a pond? Why use dispatchers familiar with the borough when you can have two ambulances, a conditions boss, an engine, and a handful of cops race around the borough.

[dadbo46 50]

City Confirms Dispatch Error in Deadly Queens Blaze

The mistake was quickly corrected, officials said.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Authorities-Confirm-Dispatch-Error-Euring-Deadly-Queens-Fire-69555087.html

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Apparently not quickly enough...

[JBE 328]

This was one of many mistakes. There was another fatal fire in Queens a few weeks ago that was all over the news. The fatality was a female construction worker who had sued for harrassment. I guess the city just doesn't get that call taking for fires should be left to the pros, regardless of a perceived delay.

[M' Ave 1,466]

I like that we need to know letter codes for the tickets now......

"What's the nature? I don't know, the ticket says "Multidwell E""

This system is Bulls%#t.

[JBE 328]

M, that letter code was on your tickets prior to UCT. A-M are Structural, N-V are Non Structural. If I remember right, you would get the letter code along with the type of building, then what you were going to.

My link Good story by Juan Gonzalez in todays' Daily News.

[M' Ave 1,466]

M, that letter code was on your tickets prior to UCT. A-M are Structural, N-V are Non Structural. If I remember right, you would get the letter code along with the type of building, then what you were going to.

My link Good story by Juan Gonzalez in todays' Daily News.

Yeah, we saw the Dept Order with that info on it. However, seeing "Multidwell" and then a letter that indicates smoke or fire is not the nice and complete specific ticket that we saw before this latest debacle.

Prior to UCT, I think that the 10-7 code must have seen half as much use.

What does it look like from your end? Any chance of this going away, ever? How about 711?

[goon16 155]

UCT has 2 meanings

U Can't Tell

Useless Call Takers

We have been "screwed" a bunch of times with this new dispatch system

[JBE 328]

I don't think it's going away any time soon, if at all. Too much money invested and the city isn't going to come out and say that it's a failure. Even now, my people are going down to the PD side and showing them how to properly fill out a fire ticket. Instead of MC Smith STS SMELLS LIKE FIRE IN HIS HOUSE APT 5D, They are being told to do it like we do it. Smoke 5D.

[dillondotcom 16]

We got a good one a few weeks ago.

"FMC STS SMELL SMOKE, UNK LOC"

We turn the corner and it is blowing out 3 windows. No second source at all.

[goon16 155]

we had another caller states fridge is hot and call states it smells like CO

Edited November 13, 2009 by goon16

[M' Ave 1,466]

How about this one:

3*2 and BC

XYZ Ave x XYZ St.

That was it! No second source.....in fact, no info at all!! We pulled up and had heavy smoke and people on the fire escape...

Go figure! Thanks UCT.

[goon16 155]

How about this one:

3*2 and BC

XYZ Ave x XYZ St.

That was it! No second source.....in fact, no info at all!! We pulled up and had heavy smoke and people on the fire escape...

Go figure! Thanks UCT.

i almost forgot about this one

we get a run for a building

floors 12th thru 14 and adjencent building thats it on the northwest corner

we get 10-84 only to find smoke pushing hard from 3 windows turns out to be a good job

thanks UCT

[JBE 328]

UFA is calling it out again. This time after the fire in Crown Heights today that took the lives of a father and his two kids. What's the count now?? 7 dead in the past month?? There will be a City Council Hearing on this December 10th. Let's see if this brings about any change. PS the story I was telling you about with the water leak/pregnant lady?? It made the news not too long ago.

Almost forgot, I'm filling out at least one or two correction forms a TOUR!!! That's four to eight mistakes per week for me. Had a good one yesterday, came to us as Smoke Scene, further info shows a commercial burglary alarm. We see Smoke Scene and we treat it like a fire. Out it goes, 3x2, BC and R-1 first due box. Then we get the message from PD that Smoke Scene is the name of the store. 10-92. You can bet my pen was writing after that one.

I will admit, it is funny to read some of the text of these calls. The misspelling is horrendous. Another giggleworthy situation is when they type in what the caller is saying word for word.

Example: 3rd Alarm in Queens.. Units on scene and operating for about 45 minutes, row of taxpayers going, this gem comes in from PD.

MC STS WHOLE BLOCK IS ON FIRE, SEND MORE FIRE TRUCKS!!!!

And furthermore, it's getting to a point where I'm sending stuff out just to cover the respective butts of me and my tour. Luckily I haven't gotten the opportunity to send an engine to a cell site for a 911 cell phone hang up. That was the city's reaction to the City Island incident last month. Had a good one yesterday (Tuesday) as well. Sent to us as gas tanks in the street. Turned out to be a lady complaining that the street vendors were using illegal propane tanks.

Edited November 19, 2009 by JBE

[25truck26 29]

JBE I was at Metro Tech a few weeks for the NYPD, they make us go to the training there and see how they operate and sit with the call takers and dispatch. When i was sitting with the call taker listening to the calls 1 was for a (10-59) NYPD code for fire. Person was calling from Queens stating they saw a fire in a backyard, but they didn't know the exact address only the street. The NYPD call taker is sitting there asking a lot of questions before she even sends it to the FD side. I would have to say it was a good 1.5-2min on the phone with the person, who by the way was out of breath and kept saying he saw fire. She is asking whats the address, the cross street and other important info. Now I am not saying this call taker did anything wrong but she even admitted she was not use to taking calls for FD jobs and said it should be sent directly to them. Now she takes the call and info then sends it to the FD and on top of that she has to go get her supervisor who has to rewind the tape and listen to the call over again. Now I never saw the old system first hand but from what you describe it was a great system in place. I had heard the horror stories by you and some other FF I know in the bronx who said the new system is a disaster and I saw it firsthand. I don't know what happened with the rest of this job and how it turned out (Wednesday afternoon a few weeks ago) but I hope nothing serious. You are right about 1 thing a lot of time is wasted and PD could be on the phone a long time getting info, if its even correct....but that's a whole other story for another day. So now I guess it has to be 4-5 min before the FD is even dispatched?

[JBE 328]

It could be 4 to 5 minutes. We have had long phone calls when we had to figure out where the person in, but that's the exception rather than the norm. Here's the thing, like I said before, the clock on response times doesn't start until we get it via computer. The PD operators don't want to be doing it. It got forced on them by the city.

[Guest]

Firefighters Cite Error in Dispatch of Fatal Fire

NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/09/nyregion/09qnsfire.html?_r=2

[JBE 328]

Another story in todays Daily News as well..

[efdcapt115 1,511]

"City officials defended the system, saying that it has improved response times — this October the average was 3 minutes 56 seconds, down from 4 minutes 12 seconds last October — and that the old system was also subject to human error. The response time for Saturday’s fire was 4 minutes 55 seconds, according to the Fire Department.

“It’s a new system; it’s a system that’s seen as an improvement,” said Jim Long, a Fire Department spokesman. “Like with any change, there are things to be worked out.”

Tell that to another greiving family.

[gamewell45 258]

UFA is calling it out again. This time after the fire in Crown Heights today that took the lives of a father and his two kids. What's the count now?? 7 dead in the past month?? There will be a City Council Hearing on this December 10th. Let's see if this brings about any change. PS the story I was telling you about with the water leak/pregnant lady?? It made the news not too long ago.

Almost forgot, I'm filling out at least one or two correction forms a TOUR!!! That's four to eight mistakes per week for me. Had a good one yesterday, came to us as Smoke Scene, further info shows a commercial burglary alarm. We see Smoke Scene and we treat it like a fire. Out it goes, 3x2, BC and R-1 first due box. Then we get the message from PD that Smoke Scene is the name of the store. 10-92. You can bet my pen was writing after that one.

I will admit, it is funny to read some of the text of these calls. The misspelling is horrendous. Another giggleworthy situation is when they type in what the caller is saying word for word.

Example: 3rd Alarm in Queens.. Units on scene and operating for about 45 minutes, row of taxpayers going, this gem comes in from PD.

MC STS WHOLE BLOCK IS ON FIRE, SEND MORE FIRE TRUCKS!!!!

And furthermore, it's getting to a point where I'm sending stuff out just to cover the respective butts of me and my tour. Luckily I haven't gotten the opportunity to send an engine to a cell site for a 911 cell phone hang up. That was the city's reaction to the City Island incident last month. Had a good one yesterday (Tuesday) as well. Sent to us as gas tanks in the street. Turned out to be a lady complaining that the street vendors were using illegal propane tanks.

i read in the paper that the father first tried to put out the fire with water in pots from his kitchen. Perhaps if he'd just gotten the kids and left the apartment, it would have had a happier ending.

[dadbo46 50]

NYC's 911 Fire Dispatch System To Be Modified

Unified Call-Taking System To Feature More Questions, More Verification Reporting

New York City is revamping its controversial new 9-1-1 dispatching system after two deadly fires raised concern about your safety.

http://wcbstv.com/local/crown.heights.fire.2.1325320.html

[ny10570 745]

i read in the paper that the father first tried to put out the fire with water in pots from his kitchen. Perhaps if he'd just gotten the kids and left the apartment, it would have had a happier ending.

few fatal fires don't have some sort of easily preventable human component to them. Smoke detectors, delayed notification of FD, illegal locks, over loaded extension cords, etc. This doesn't excuse the city from taking a functioning system with a few problems and making it worse.

[JBE 328]

The modification is really just a reversal of what we were doing pre-UCT. Only this time, they conference into us, and we just type while the PD does the interrogation, and we jump in if necessary. This could go both ways. It could be the start of us taking calls back, or we will be under the microscope just as bad. We've already put the word out, no more fat finger typos on addresses. Heads will roll.

PS NYPD lost its CAD tonight so we were taking calls for about 4 hours.