Montrose Fire at Cole's Market

[Oswegowind 17]

Pictures from the Montrose fire in no particular order, with no time stamp.

[Oswegowind 17]

More pics in time order at:

Montrose Fire at Cole's Market

Edited: Link repair

Well, the link is repaired, however you have to be on Facebook to see facebook pics now apparently. I logged in using an alternate logon that I use at work...and the pics were viewable. Normally I set my photos to "Only Friends" however this album is set to "Everyone". I may be inclined to place them in the FB Bravo user group with permission from the admin there. Enjoy...

Edited April 15, 2010 by Oswegowind

[newsbuff 286]

So is that guy in the 7th picture just some random dude playing with the stabilizing jacks? Or is he a firefighter

I thought the motto was, Always use proper PPE...

Edited April 15, 2010 by newsbuff

[yanks4ever1320 6]

So is that guy in the 7th picture just some random dude playing with the stabilizing jacks? Or is he a firefighter

I thought the motto was, Always use proper PPE...

THe guy in the 7th picture that is putting out the stabilizing jacks is the driver of the ladder. after he got the ladder set up he put on his turnout gear. He is in teh tenth picure, he is the guy on the turn table.

Edited April 15, 2010 by yanks4ever1320

[irishfire2491 24]

So is that guy in the 7th picture just some random dude playing with the stabilizing jacks? Or is he a firefighter

I thought the motto was, Always use proper PPE...

That same guy setting up the truck is the same guy on the turn table in full Turn out Gear operating the ladder and was also the driver of the truck.

[newsbuff 286]

Just asking.

And I'm not trying to start anything. From a standpoint of an observer, it is unclear.

[yanks4ever1320 6]

Just asking.

completely understood, i just wanted to cleat it up for everyone on here.

[FF398 45]

awesome pics thanks for sharing!!!

[Oswegowind 17]

completely understood, i just wanted to cleat it up for everyone on here.

Well, I'm gonna go there. If your age is correct on your profile, then you are 18-20 years old. Instead of worrying about what other people are saying or critiquing or even questioning, maybe you should pay attention so that you learn from mistakes of others. Photos can be a very good and also very safe method of learning. The point is, you, as an obviously new emergency service worker are "impressionable". You should take some time to learn what is right, and not what some people do because they have the feeling that nothing will ever happen to them. If no one ever steps up and questions things here and there than nothing ever gets fixed or even looked at. Questioning leads to understanding. Don't assume, ask. And people on this board need to get a grip. The majority of the people on this forum are working or have worked in some capacity in the emergency services (Police-Fire-EMS). Each individual has their own knowledge, wisdom, and understanding. And each individual can build upon that daily if they admit¹ so. But we only have understanding when items are questioned and correct answers are provided. It's time to stop with the quick defenses and the covering up of things because people don't feel it is "kosher". People may not like that I am not afraid to speak my mind, but that is just too bad. I say, instead of getting defensive or stopping a discussion, let's have that discussion. Questions can be asked, and answers can be furnished. And if the question is unfounded then it has passed and that person has learned something, however if the question leads to someone's life being saved in the future than so be it.

Now, I was there. The ladder operator did have more than enough time to put on his gear before any use of the ladder. So, if the Montrose FD policy, which I have not read nor am at all familiar with, states that all members at the scene of a fire shall don personal protective equipment prior to doing an fireground work, than this member should have followed that operating guideline to ensure his own safety. If the Montrose FD does not have such policy, than he was acting correctly. Now, if there is no such policy in place, maybe that in itself should be reviewed. I do know the Chief (2271) of the Montrose FD, and respect that he is very knowledgeable, in fact he is the only one I have known to be chief over there. I would hope that he is open to hearing about things he may not have seen because his focus is getting the correct resources in place to stop the fire from growing and saving a building.

So, I believe the question is: Should the "guy" in photo #7 above, have been wearing PPE while working on the Ladder Tower on the fireground, in this case stabilizing the outriggers?

¹From Websters Dictionary: admit ---> 1 a : to allow scope for : permit <admits no possibility of misunderstanding> b : to concede as true or valid <admitted making a mistake>

2 a : to allow entry (as to a place, fellowship, or privilege) <an open window had admitted rain> <admitted to the club> b : to accept into a hospital as an inpatient <he was admitted last night for chest pains> I am using definition #2a when referring to the word scripted.

In the third sentence, "HERE", is not a reference to EMTBravo, it is just a part of speech.

[PVFD233 68]

Nice Shots.

[hudson144 150]

Nice stop to all involved- Coles Market is one of the oldest buildings in Montrose dating back to the late 1800's, from knowing the building 1st hand (I Lived there upstairs for 3 yrs) the construction of the building is the common enemy of us Firefighters. Balloon Construction. The fire was extending vertical and was stopped! If it was later after hours I am sure the outcome would have been alot different. jjc

[MoFire390 118]

OS 4 things for ya

1 yanks4ever is a member of Mfd and quite active he is in 3-4 photos u took yesterday

2 great pics

3 the link isn't working think u can help a brother out

4 I can't speak for everyone there but what I can say is we try tp get the ladder up jic we need it ASAP. I'm 50% sure that's what the thinking was about getting the ladder set up.

[Remember585 815]

Why does an MPO / ECC / LCC / Driver / Operator / Etc. have to be in full PPE to operate an apparatus? They're not in an IDLH environment, right? We've had this discussion dozens of times in our own firehouse. Not to point fingers at one specific agency, but look at photos of the FDNY operating at a fire - their rig operators don't wear turnout gear most of the time. Many other departments do this, and if you look around, quite a bit of Incident Commanders won't be in gear either.

So long as the guys working in, on and around the fire are protected, then as a Chief or an IC, I would be more then content.

In this case, maybe a safety vest would of been better, but poop happens.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Remember585

[Oswegowind 17]

Why does an MPO / ECC / LCC / Driver / Operator / Etc. have to be in full PPE to operate an apparatus? They're not in an IDLH environment, right? We've had this discussion dozens of times in our own firehouse. Not to point fingers at one specific agency, but look at photos of the FDNY operating at a fire - their rig operators don't wear turnout gear most of the time. Many other departments do this, and if you look around, quite a bit of Incident Commanders won't be in gear either.

So long as the guys working in, on and around the fire are protected, then as a Chief or an IC, I would be more then content.

In this case, maybe a safety vest would of been better, but poop happens.

Well, that is an answer. It could say simply that; "It is not necessary for a member who is not actively involved in firefighting to be in full PPE." Simple and an answer, not a rebuttal which was expressed almost immediately by the "don't even start..." post.

I believe it is understood that many volunteers respond to calls from their "work" and there are a number of jobs where it is inappropriate to wear clothing that reflects your out of work activities as was apparent. The "guy" at the back of the ladder is obviously in some "professional" or white collar type of work as evidenced by his clothing. To bystanders, of which there were many at this scene as the high school and local businesses were all open at the time, and to the person who asked the question, you cannot tell that that person is qualified based solely on their appearance; clothing.

And John, please don't utilize the "they don't do it, why should we" comparison. Each agency/organization has its own rules or guidelines. Some may be more proactive on fireground safety than others, as well some may be more inclined to provide constructive discipline in order to correct malevolent behavior from reoccurring. You have been doing this for probably half your life and from working with you in the past you always seemed to understand that the common way may not be the best way or the safest. And poop does happen, but that is no excuse now is it?

If we don't question things how do we find better solutions or guidelines? We asked, what is under our ground and discovered oil. We asked, what is beyond our atmosphere and now we fly satellites that provide us with everyday advanced quality of life. Never stop questioning. Find better ways. Almost every luxury we are afforded today began as a question somewhere.

So, I hereby pose a question to all that read and respond on these forums:

~Can we try to have intelligent, diverse, and constructive discussions about incidents so that all of

us can be afforded an opportunity to learn new ideas and theories without the constant defense and/or personal involvement?

~And can we bury terms such as "monday morning quaterback" and personal attacks so that as a community of skilled emergency

service workers whether paid or volunteer we can grow into the ideal system that many of us believe

we could have with proper leadership?

As a fellow bravoer whom has questioned me on occasion, and I hope he gets the answer he is looking for when he does, JFlynn consistently says: QTIP

Edited April 15, 2010 by Oswegowind

[efermann 28]

So, I believe the question is: Should the "guy" in photo #7 above, have been wearing PPE while working on the Ladder Tower on the fireground, in this case stabilizing the outriggers?

During my first look, and subsequent review of the pictures, I would have imagined that the Ladder operator responded from work, didn't imediately get dressed, and was in a hurry to set up the outriggers. As was pointed out, in later pictures, he was in full (full enough? He didn't have a pack on...maybe it was next to him) PPE and was working the aerial.

While he is not in an IDLH environment when he is standing on the turn-table, there is always a chance that he may need to get up the ladder in a real hurry to effect a rescue of a civilian or another firefighter. It's a small chance, but it's a chance, nonetheless. In that very small chance, he would enter the IDLH environment.

I don't know enough of departmental policies anywhere to even guess how many departments would require complete PPE (with a pack on or next to) for the ladder and/or pump operators. Or the incident commander, for that matter.

I guess I didn't really answer the question. Can we add to the question if a pack is necessary? Do any departments require that?

[Alpinerunner 61]

IDLH usually refers to a dangerous atmouspheric condition, resulting in the need for an airpack. It doesn't have anything to do with the need for turnout gear. I.E., an MVA is a dangerous situation that requires turnout gear, but it is not IDLH, and doesn't require an SCBA.

In a vollie department with memebers responding to the scene/firehouse, I think it is reasonable to setup a ladder without gear, and it is mandatory to be in full turnout gear while on the turn table. My reasoning for this is that getting the ladder setup is potentially a time sensitive operation because there could be victims that need to be rescued, and it is not a dangerous operation. The operator could setup the ladder while a potential rescuer gets in turnout gear and an SCBA. When the ladder is setup, the rescuer will be ready. However, when the operator is on the turntable you do have the potential to need to climb the ladder, he/she could fall from the turntable, etc so turnout gear is a must.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Alpinerunner

[VAEMC 10]

So is that guy in the 7th picture just some random dude playing with the stabilizing jacks? Or is he a firefighter

I thought the motto was, Always use proper PPE...

That random "Dude" playing with the stabilizing jacks, just so happens to have stayed at a holiday inn last night, so we let him play firefighter.

Maybe we should make our drivers wear SCBA's while driving, since the motto was, Always use proper PPE.... Seriously!

This "Dude" is a highly respected member of our department and always operates with the upmost safety.

If you want to ask legitimate questions that’s fine.

[HubEng21 14]

That random "Dude" playing with the stabilizing jacks, just so happens to have stayed at a holiday inn last night, so we let him play firefighter.

Maybe we should make our drivers wear SCBA's while driving, since the motto was, Always use proper PPE.... Seriously!

This "Dude" is a highly respected member of our department and always operates with the upmost safety.

If you want to ask legitimate questions that’s fine.

Did you read the other post's on this topic? Ha, relax; Everything is going to be JUST FINE.