Autonomy of a Fire District

[helicopper 1,050]

The Mayor is not necessarily the Chief's boss. If Freeport is a city or a village, then it is possible that the Mayor is the boss.

If it is a Town, it would have a Town Superviser, not a Mayor and towns don't have Fire Depts, they have Fire Districts, not accountable to the Town Gov't. They are governed by a Board Of Commissioners who is the Chief's boss.

Even in a village or city, the Mayor's function could only be to preside over City Council. Or the FD could be governed by a board of wardens

or similar body.

The above post got me thinking and I was hoping someone could clarify this a little bit for me.

Don't most fire districts have contracts with the jurisdiction they service (i.e. the town)?

If they do have a contract (in my town, the Town contracts with the FD), doesn't the entity awarding the contract still have some say in things even if there is a Board of Fire Commissioners? I mean there are TERMS in the CONTRACT, aren't there?

Or is there something entirely different in the law (and in NY that wouldn't surprise me at all!)?

[EJS1810 7]

Fire Districts are another political subdivision of the government. In NYS Cities, Villages and Fire Districts can provide fire protection. Town cannor provide fire protection on their own and have to contract with an independent Fire Company or a Village or Fire District to cover a predesignated area (Fire Protection District).

It gets so confusing there is actually now a course at the Fire Academy in Montour Falls to explain it all (Legal Considerations for Volunteer Fire Departments). It's run by Mark Butler for teh Buffalo area and is a real eye opener as to who is the famous "Authority Having Jursidiction" or AHJ.

In the case of Freeport, they are a Village Fire Department and have to answer to the Mayor and Village Board

Edited December 2, 2010 by EJS1810

[38ff 250]

A fire DISTRICT is a political subdivision of the state of NY. It operates independently of whatever town government it's fire company serves. There is no contract, as it is the districts responsibilty (as dictated from NYS) to provide fire protection to the geographic area that the fire district covers.

As far as "offical" interaction with the town, all that needs to happen is the fire district sends the town the "collect this much in taxes for us this year" and the town send the tax check to the fire district in January, as the town has the responsibility (as dictated from NYS) to collect taxes from the taxpayers for ALL the taxable entities (fire, sewer, water, ect districts) that exisit in the geographical area covered by the town.

The district provides fire protection any way they see fit. Most do it thru voluneteer companies, but if the district wants to go paid, the commissioners vote on it, and as long as there is a majority vote, it will happen. The fire chief of the fire company answers to the district commsioners.

The fire COMMISSIONERS are NOT officers or employees of the town, or any other political subdivison. They are elected just like mayors or town councilmen.

Basically, districts answer only to the state and the taxpayers.

Places like New Paltz, their fire company is contracted by the town, and thats NOT a fire district, so the fire company answers directly to the town's mayor/councilmen.

[JetPhoto 626]

One of the few times a town would be involved is when a fire district wants to adjust it's boundaries (if multiple districts serve the town)

[ex-commish 490]

It gets so confusing there is actually now a course at the Fire Academy in Montour Falls to explain it all (Legal Considerations for Volunteer Fire Departments). It's run by Mark Butler for teh Buffalo area and is a real eye opener as to who is the famous "Authority Having Jursidiction" or AHJ.

Mark Butler runs an excellent program. I highly recommend it for anyone who has any kind of decision making authority. I wish this course could be taught on a local level.

[FD828 77]

So basically if the commissioners of a fire district decide they need to buy all new engines, build a new fire station and give all their firefighters pay raises they can do it with a majority vote? Even if that means the taxes for those residents will double? And the town has no say and have to collect said monies?

Edited December 2, 2010 by FD828

[GAW6 66]

So basically if the commissioners of a fire district decide they need to buy all new engines, build a new fire station and give all their firefighters pay raises they can do it with a majority vote? Even if that means the taxes for those residents will double? And the town has no say and have to collect said monies?

EXACTLY! The Town Supervisor/Board can express their feelings, but Fire District budgets are a "done deal". On a side note, Fire Districts are now required to have an outside audit done annually that gets sent to the State. The State Comptroller's Office is coming down pretty hard on some Districts who are not following the "rules".

[efdcapt115 1,511]

So basically if the commissioners of a fire district decide they need to buy all new engines, build a new fire station and give all their firefighters pay raises they can do it with a majority vote? Even if that means the taxes for those residents will double? And the town has no say and have to collect said monies?

That is correct. But try and find a Board of Fire Commissioners who would take such a drastic step. I'd say you'd be hard pressed to find one.

I worked for a fire district. Historically, the volunteer firemen held the Board seats, and influenced the outcome of the elections. The union became politically active in trying to get Commissioners elected some years ago. But even then, some Commissioners who we actively supported and helped get elected, would change their opinions and outlook once elected. It was always amazing to observe.

I think in the last few years, the union decided to stay away from the elections "officially" and the members just work on their own time trying to help somebody get elected to the board. It's too much of a political liability for a Commissioner to have the active backing and support of the union. The taxpayer revolt people end up coming out of the woodwork to give the Commission a hard time, and make the Board look bad on the local cable channel.

People complain that there is not enough local participation in fire elections. The activists say when a Commissioner gets elected with union support that it is unfair to the taxpayers because of the lopsided influence a union can have when voter turnout is low.

That's complete baloney and I can site one year in particular that union participation resulted in the highest turnout EVER for a fire election in the district, with over 5,000 people turning out, waiting in lines that stretched out of the polling place and down the street.

[38ff 250]

Bacically, the fire commissioners can do what ever they want (within the law of course) and quadruple the taxes, all with a 3 out of 5 (or majority of the # of commissioners on the board) vote. They only people they must answer to is the State, and the taxpayers.

The yearly audit only covers the finacial and administrative end of the district (paperwork, legal postings, payments, purchasing proceedures, ect) it doesnt cover the "big red truck" end of things. You can have a fire company that doesnt know which end of a hose to use who is lead by Mickey Mouse himself, but as long as the district has all the paperwork end of things in order, you get a passing grade from the state.

Edited December 2, 2010 by 38ff

[FD828 77]

Anyone know if those same "rules" apply in Connecticut?

Edited December 2, 2010 by FD828

[38ff 250]

Every state is different.

Also, there is a book put out by James Publishing, its called the NYS Fire District Officers Guide. It's basically a "how to guide" on running a district and what the responsibilities are of the district, the fire co, you name it. The binder is 3 inches thick, and updated every year with regards to new laws and opinions of the state comptroller. It's $$ well spent if your a commissioner or an interested member of a Fire Company.

Edited December 2, 2010 by 38ff

[IzzyEng4 427]

Anyone know if those same "rules" apply in Connecticut?

Connecticut is a entirely different beast when it comes to fire districts.

First, a fire district is an incorporation by the state legislature granting full municipal rights. Thus when a fire district is created, then usually is set up like a town, city or borough chartered fire department, granted taxation rights, sue and be sues, and also allowed to establish any number of "companies" within the department as it sees fit to maintain proper protection.

Technically if a city, town or borough has in their municipal charter the right to establish a fire department, then those boundaries are their "fire protection district" or can contract with a another fire department / company. Basically teh selectmen, aldermen, burgesses and wardens are in control of the overal makeup of what the budget is.

When it comes to voting in a fire district in CT, every eligible voter that lives in the established fire district (like the three districts in West Haven) vote on the budget. Its not a done deal. Also the town politicians do not have control over a separate fire district.

[JetPhoto 626]

So basically if the commissioners of a fire district decide they need to buy all new engines, build a new fire station and give all their firefighters pay raises they can do it with a majority vote? Even if that means the taxes for those residents will double? And the town has no say and have to collect said monies?

Fire Districts raising taxes yes - a open meeting must be held prior to the district adopting the budget where taxpayers can view and question the budget. Changes may or may not be made, just because someone complains doesn't stop the adoption of the budget.

Buying fire apparatus or constructing or remodeling buildings or other high value projects have to be advertised in legal notices indicating the use of taxpayer money (separate from bids for such)

[38ff 250]

ever see the laws about the public speaking at a District Meeting??? They can speak, but the board doesnt (by law) need to respond.

[wraftery 1,275]

A couple of quick points:

I don't personally know of any Board of Commissioners who recklessly squanders the district funds. They each believe that they are responsible to the taxpayer to get the best FD at the best price. The meetings are public but are sparsely attended for the most part.

In many districts, the union has only a little influence in elections. The uniion members can't vote because they don't live in the district. Take me, for example. I was hired from out of town and never lived in town in my 34 years of service, but I feel I gave the taxpayers my best.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

.........but I feel I gave the taxpayers my best.

And then some Chief.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

I want to add in these comments about my union participation in fire commissioner elections; I personally was very involved in the process for a few years. The ONLY motivation (and I'm speaking from the heart) that drove me to work on behalf of certain individuals running for and in some cases successfully winning election to the Board of Fire Commissioners was to try and get improvements made in the delivery of service that would benefit public safety and/or firefighter safety.

In my time of political activism in the fire politik, we never asked for promises, favorable contract treatment, or anything that would benefit the members financially. We/I felt an obligation to conduct ourselves in a manner consistent with the truest ideals of the democratic system. I personally believed it to be an honor and a privilege to be participating in the process.

That's where the disheartening disillusionment came into focus. The activists basically came out and said that exact thing; a commissioner elected with the help of union firefighters must certainly be in office for only one reason; to line their pocket$. Their accusations were disgusting.

People would entrust us to take an oath to protect and serve, yet they would jump to conclude that political activism in the process could only mean that we were "in it for our own gain."

Nothing could have been further from the truth, and it resulted that the union would be loathe to ever lend it's name or support to a candidate ever again. We'd been so degraded through the process by these vindictive individuals who claimed to speak for the electorate. Truth is, WE had the best interests of the electorate in our motivations, and were dumped on so severely by these people that most of us vowed never to participate again.

In my case, that's exactly what happened.

[JetPhoto 626]

I want to add in these comments about my union participation in fire commissioner elections; I personally was very involved in the process for a few years. The ONLY motivation (and I'm speaking from the heart) that drove me to work on behalf of certain individuals running for and in some cases successfully winning election to the Board of Fire Commissioners was to try and get improvements made in the delivery of service that would benefit public safety and/or firefighter safety.

Unfortunately to really make changes happen, you need 2 of the 5 commissioners to agree with you and push for the same change, not always easy to do.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Unfortunately to really make changes happen, you need 2 of the 5 commissioners to agree with you and push for the same change, not always easy to do.

Actually, you need three and there is no need to push anything. Simple majority vote passes.

[38ff 250]

As long as everyone on the board has the best interest of the taxpayers in mind to improve fire suppression service and firefighter saftey, while keeping taxes under control and making wise purchases, it will be good for everyone.

As far as "pushing" for change, it's really very easy. The senetence starts out with "I make a motion to...." Get a second and a majority vote, the motion passes and it's done. Not hard at all.

Edited December 3, 2010 by 38ff

[JetPhoto 626]

Actually, you need three and there is no need to push anything. Simple majority vote passes.

You being 1 person and 2 others = 3 out of 5 = majority

[efdcapt115 1,511]

You being 1 person and 2 others = 3 out of 5 = majority

Oh I see what you mean now. Thanks for the clarification.

[FD828 77]

I want to add in these comments about my union participation in fire commissioner elections; I personally was very involved in the process for a few years. The ONLY motivation (and I'm speaking from the heart) that drove me to work on behalf of certain individuals running for and in some cases successfully winning election to the Board of Fire Commissioners was to try and get improvements made in the delivery of service that would benefit public safety and/or firefighter safety.

In my time of political activism in the fire politik, we never asked for promises, favorable contract treatment, or anything that would benefit the members financially. We/I felt an obligation to conduct ourselves in a manner consistent with the truest ideals of the democratic system. I personally believed it to be an honor and a privilege to be participating in the process.

That's where the disheartening disillusionment came into focus. The activists basically came out and said that exact thing; a commissioner elected with the help of union firefighters must certainly be in office for only one reason; to line their pocket$. Their accusations were disgusting.

People would entrust us to take an oath to protect and serve, yet they would jump to conclude that political activism in the process could only mean that we were "in it for our own gain."

Nothing could have been further from the truth, and it resulted that the union would be loathe to ever lend it's name or support to a candidate ever again. We'd been so degraded through the process by these vindictive individuals who claimed to speak for the electorate. Truth is, WE had the best interests of the electorate in our motivations, and were dumped on so severely by these people that most of us vowed never to participate again.

In my case, that's exactly what happened.

You didn't by any chance work/retire from Mohegan did you? Sounds very similar to a few of my friends currently/past employed there.

[firefighter36 52]

I want to add in these comments about my union participation in fire commissioner elections; I personally was very involved in the process for a few years. The ONLY motivation (and I'm speaking from the heart) that drove me to work on behalf of certain individuals running for and in some cases successfully winning election to the Board of Fire Commissioners was to try and get improvements made in the delivery of service that would benefit public safety and/or firefighter safety.

In my time of political activism in the fire politik, we never asked for promises, favorable contract treatment, or anything that would benefit the members financially. We/I felt an obligation to conduct ourselves in a manner consistent with the truest ideals of the democratic system. I personally believed it to be an honor and a privilege to be participating in the process.

That's where the disheartening disillusionment came into focus. The activists basically came out and said that exact thing; a commissioner elected with the help of union firefighters must certainly be in office for only one reason; to line their pocket$. Their accusations were disgusting.

People would entrust us to take an oath to protect and serve, yet they would jump to conclude that political activism in the process could only mean that we were "in it for our own gain."

Nothing could have been further from the truth, and it resulted that the union would be loathe to ever lend it's name or support to a candidate ever again. We'd been so degraded through the process by these vindictive individuals who claimed to speak for the electorate. Truth is, WE had the best interests of the electorate in our motivations, and were dumped on so severely by these people that most of us vowed never to participate again.

In my case, that's exactly what happened.

Bravo. And for the record Capt., that's exactly how it is today as well

[ex-commish 490]

ever see the laws about the public speaking at a District Meeting??? They can speak, but the board doesnt (by law) need to respond.

Can you site which law states this? Thank you.

[38ff 250]

Yes, but it will have to wait until I get back home on Tuesday.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Can you site which law states this? Thank you.

I do not know if its law, but this is very common practice at all levels. Our City council does it, the county board does our state legislature does it and congress does it. Public hearings and "citizens to be heard" are just that, opertunity for the public to give input to the elected officials .

[efdcapt115 1,511]

......opertunity.............

Everybody sing for the good Captain (sung to the tune of "All I want for Christmas is my two front teeth")

Ready?......

"All I want for Christmas is a SPELL CHECK ER....A SPELL CHECK ER.....A SPELL CHECK ER......."

[helicopper 1,050]

I do not know if its law, but this is very common practice at all levels. Our City council does it, the county board does our state legislature does it and congress does it. Public hearings and "citizens to be heard" are just that, opertunity for the public to give input to the elected officials .

Common practice and law are too vastly different things. One post referred to a "law" regarding such activities and we're merely asking for someone to cite the applicable statute so everyone may read it in its entirety.

You're right - citizens to be heard usually doesn't start a dialogue; it is an opportunity for taxpayers to communicate directly to their employees (novel description of politicians, isn't it?).

[helicopper 1,050]

A few follow-up questions to my original post. Are all boards of fire commissioners five seats? Is there any variance for population served?

Do the districts get to set their own dates for elections?