Looking for new supply engine

[Rescue85 4]

Company is starting to look for a new supply engine. With the different manufacturers out there, would like to hear your comments on recently purchases engines. Please be honest and comment on pros & cons about the manufacturers (Workmanship, quality, reliability, etc). Please not any problems you have had with your engine. This will help the truck committee look in the right direction.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Gowans-Knight.

They did several supply engines for BFD, PRFD, CFFD.

[Alpinerunner 61]

Are you looking for any special specs or equipment? Isn't a supply engine just a 2nd due engine?

[mfc2257 464]

Are you looking for any special specs or equipment? Isn't a supply engine just a 2nd due engine?

No. Oversimplified, the second due engine is a regular engine that grabs the hydrant and establishes continuous water supply for the first due when operating in an area where hydrants are nearby and flowing acceptable amounts of water.

A supply engine is specifically designed to provide water supply in adverse conditions. These apparatus don't follow any one spec and can vary in design.... Some attributes to various supply engines I've encountered include some or all of the following equipment:

Front mount pump for smaller overall design and ability to nose into static water supply

2 man cab

Short wheel base

4x4 or 4x6 drive train to access remote water supply

Several thousand feet of LDH for long lays

Hose reels for long lays

High volume pumps (1750gpm+)

Pre connected front suction squirrel tails for rapid establishment of draft from static water source

Porta-Pond or drop tank to rapidly establish initial draft site for tanker operations

Water thief or hydrant assist valve

Extra adapters and fittings to facilitate unique connections OR achieve compatibility with neighboring water systems

Here is an example of Bedford FD E-108. Photo credit to emtbravo member BedfordFire via www.bedfordfire.com Notice the connections in the front bumper, the long looped length of suction tube, short overall length, two man cab (maybe three), and not seen from the rear... The 5000ft of LDH it carries.

Edited March 18, 2011 by mfc2257

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Are you looking for any special specs or equipment? Isn't a supply engine just a 2nd due engine?

A supply engine can be, but does not have to be a normal class-A pumper. There are at least a few departments in Westchester that operate a non-front line pumper (meaning it does not have enough equipment to be first or second due to structure fire). These apparatus are essentially giant pump on wheels with a full bed of LDH. I know of at least one that carries about a mile of 5inch. Essentially this apparatus job is to go the the fire scene, then reverse lay to water source or it can exclusively fill tankers from the fill site or supply the attack engine. They are not designed to be actively engaged in firefighting, but rather simply moving water. This can be like you said, just the 2nd due, for those without a tanker or with long distances to water sources this is another option.

I have attached a copy of PRFDs and BFDs source pumper from LFD171s site and a photo of BFDs hose bed and mile of LDH.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

No. Oversimplified, the second due engine is a regular engine that grabs the hydrant and establishes continuous water supply for the first due when operating in an area where hydrants are nearby and flowing acceptable amounts of water.

A supply engine is specifically designed to provide water supply in adverse conditions. These apparatus don't follow any one spec and can vary in design.... Some attributes to various supply engines I've encountered include some or all of the following equipment:

Front mount pump for smaller overall design and ability to nose into static water supply

2 man cab

Short wheel base

4x4 or 4x6 drive train to access remote water supply

Several thousand feet of LDH for long lays

Hose reels for long lays

High volume pumps (1750gpm+)

Pre connected front suction squirrel tails for rapid establishment of draft from static water source

Porta-Pond or drop tank to rapidly establish initial draft site for tanker operations

Water thief or hydrant assist valve

Extra adapters and fittings to facilitate unique connections OR achieve compatibility with neighboring water systems

Here is an example of Bedford FD E-108. Photo credit to www.bedfordfire.com Notice the connections in the front bumper, the long looped length of suction tube, short overall length, two man cab (maybe three), and not seen from the rear... The 5000ft of LDH it carries.

I see you beat me to the punch but I posted an enlarged photo of the bed of E108 below. While you may have taken that photo from bedfordfire.com, the actual photographer is EMTBravo member BedfordFire

photo credit x635

Edited March 18, 2011 by bvfdjc316

[mfc2257 464]

While you may have taken that photo from bedfordfire.com, the actual photographer is EMTBravo member BedfordFire

Correctly noted in my modified post. Thanks.

[Alpinerunner 61]

Thanks BVFD and MFC for the info. Very interesting concept. Seems like a good idea for departments only partially covered by hydrants.

[Rescue85 4]

Brothers, let me this very simple for you. New engine will be a Class A pumper, 1500 -2000 GPM pump, 500 - 750 Gallon Water Tank, to carry at least 1500-FT of LDH (5"). Primary purpose of this engine will be establishing primary or secondary water supply (Will always supply the tower ladder when in operation). 95% of the time water supplied via hydrants. Might on a rare occasion pump from a lake. The manufacturers (American LaFrance, Crimson, Smeal, Stuphen, Pierce, KME, etc). What are your experiences with these engines (Pro's & con's) as to reliability, workmanship, major problems, etc. with the equipment. Salesmen will tell you anything, but would like to hear what the guys in the trenches think about the equipment. Thanking you for your input.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Rescue85

[38ff 250]

Do you plan on keeping the thing for 20-30 years and "run it into the ground", or do you guys sell them at 10-15 years with lots of life?

[Rescue85 4]

Do you plan on keeping the thing for 20-30 years and "run it into the ground", or do you guys sell them at 10-15 years with lots of life?

Based on our prior history of apparatus, would keep it for at least 20 years or so. Would be replaced this engine when it will be DOA of needs major repairs.

[Task Force 7 65]

If it's possible, I would recommend you try to get a customized rig. When I was a volunteer a few years ago we had two commercial cab engines that were on a Freightliner chassis. One was from Quality (now Crimson) that was a 2000 model and always having problems. Brakes would go out, wouldn't start, always seemed like something mechanical would be wrong with it. This wouldn't be Quality's problem I don't think as much as it would be Freightliner since that's who the actual chassis/drivetrain/engine was from. The thing was a Freightshaker when it was in service. The 1995 Pierce also on a Freightliner was much better. Never seemed to have problems with it. The biggest problem I had was there is absolutely no room inside a commercial cab. We also had a American LaFrance aerial tower. Since it was an aerial, it be hard to compare to an engine. When I was in the fire academy and rode with my instructor at his dept. They had all Pierce Dash units. I loved those. Plenty of room inside the cab. They seemed to be very reliable. Although their Quint did stop pumping in training one day and had to be towed off by a big rig wrecker.

[conman 40]

We run twin KME commerical pumpers. They are 2000 international 4900 crew cab chassis'. 1250 pump, 1000 gallon tank eash with 1000' LDH As for them being KME's the one truck is a hunk of crap. Since we got it, the service from them wasn't great. We've had a lot of problems with the pump control mechanism on the truck. It wasn't able to control the pump speed and the pump would run off on us or it wouldnt even pump water. After asking them to replace it multiple times they kept giving us the same product. We were very dissatisfied by theyre service. Not sure how other people feel about KME. Hope this is helpful.

[mfc2257 464]

Based on our prior history of apparatus, would keep it for at least 20 years or so. Would be replaced this engine when it will be DOA of needs major repairs.

There is a lot of knowledge here but we need to know more to help. At first Gowens Knight seemed like the logical choice but since then you've supplied some info that leads me to believe that you are looking for more of a second due engine, TL supply rig, and maybe a hose wagon.

Where are you?

How much of your first due contains hydrants?

How often as you called to establish non hydrant water supply for mutual aid?

What is your environment like... Urban, suburb, rural, BFE?

When your primary attack apparatus is OOS how does this rigs responsibilities change

Will this rig perform any additional services ( brush, extrication, etc)

What's the budget

Edited March 20, 2011 by mfc2257

[Bnechis 3,961]

We've had a lot of problems with the pump control mechanism on the truck. It wasn't able to control the pump speed and the pump would run off on us or it wouldnt even pump water. After asking them to replace it multiple times they kept giving us the same product. We were very dissatisfied by theyre service. Not sure how other people feel about KME. Hope this is helpful.

Before this deteroiates into every manufactures problems, you need to look a little deeper. Their are only a few pump controlers on the market and they must be matched with the engine, transmission and pump. In fact if you even had an option, your dept spec'ed it and it is very likely that no other unit can be used. I suspect your dept may have even been told this, but often I find depts don't want to accept that it is what it is.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Company is starting to look for a new supply engine. With the different manufacturers out there, would like to hear your comments on recently purchases engines. Please be honest and comment on pros & cons about the manufacturers (Workmanship, quality, reliability, etc). Please not any problems you have had with your engine. This will help the truck committee look in the right direction.

I am reading this a little different than most of the other commenters. I have speced a number of vehicles for a number of different depts. and based on what you've written, you are working backwards.

It is very common for depts to decide on a manufacturer, before they decide what the depts needs are. Every dealer who reads your spec will know who you want and often few others will invest in bidding the rig (it costs them $1,000's and if they know you want something else, why waste their $$$). I have also seen depts. that make it so clear that they want one brand, that their is only one bid and they get hit with an extra $60,000 for the rig, because everyone knew that was the rig before the spec went out.

There are clearly differences from one manufacturer to the next. But the biggest differences when it comes to quality, reliability, service, etc. is your spec and the local dealer. I have seen many apparatus committee's that spend days figuring out if the light bar sould be red on the left and blue on the right (or vis versa), but have no idea what pump is right, or the difference between a jake brake and a telma retarder (and how that will affect maintenance). I have also seen good spec's that were not followed because the manufacture &/or dealer knew you'd accept whatever they built as long as the stripes and lights looked cool.

In the last 25 years my dept. has owned: ALF (2 different companies), LTI, Maxium, Pierce, RD Murry, Seagrave, Sutphen, SVI and we are soon to get a smeal. They have been on ALF, Pirce, Seagrave, Simon-Duplex, Spartan and Sutphen Chassies.

All have been fine and all have had major issues.

Almost every manufacture uses the same tires, wheels, axles, brakes, engines, transmissions, pumps, drivetrains, seats, mirrors, lights, filters, etc.

Write a good performance spec that meets your needs then let the dealers fight to prove who will build you what you want for the most reasonable (note: not cheapest) price.

If the bids are close, then consider reputations, recommendations and past experiences in making the final cut.

Remember your spec (and the follow thru) is what will make or break this engine.

Good luck

[IzzyEng4 427]

Gowans-Knight.

They did several supply engines for BFD, PRFD, CFFD.

I agree, G-K produces a great truck. on their website, they are finishing up (or might have already) a new source pumper for the Durham, CT FD. It's on a two door Spartan chassis with a top-mount pump panel. Never heard anything bad about this company as they have bee producing rigs for about 25 - 30 years.

http://www.gowansknight.com/

[Rescue85 4]

There is a lot of knowledge here but we need to know more to help. At first Gowens Knight seemed like the logical choice but since then you've supplied some info that leads me to believe that you are looking for more of a second due engine, TL supply rig, and maybe a hose wagon.

Where are you?

How much of your first due contains hydrants?

How often as you called to establish non hydrant water supply for mutual aid?

What is your environment like... Urban, suburb, rural, BFE?

When your primary attack apparatus I'd OOS how does this rigs responsibilities change

Will this rig perform any additional services ( brush, extrication, etc)

What's the budget

mfc 2257 -- I really do not think you need any additional information. Seems to be your on a witch hunt and making a mountain out of a mole hill. All of your questions have no relevance to my original question. Like most of the posts everyone goes off in every direction except for answering the original question. Everything you are asking has already been put on the table by me.

All we are trying to find out is your opinion on the various manufacturers out there (Pro's & con's/Good or bad aspects about the manufacturers and any major problems you have had). Any sound help would be greatly appreciated.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Rescue85

[Rescue85 4]

I am reading this a little different than most of the other commenters. I have speced a number of vehicles for a number of different depts. and based on what you've written, you are working backwards.

It is very common for depts to decide on a manufacturer, before they decide what the depts needs are. Every dealer who reads your spec will know who you want and often few others will invest in bidding the rig (it costs them $1,000's and if they know you want something else, why waste their $$$). I have also seen depts. that make it so clear that they want one brand, that their is only one bid and they get hit with an extra $60,000 for the rig, because everyone knew that was the rig before the spec went out.

There are clearly differences from one manufacturer to the next. But the biggest differences when it comes to quality, reliability, service, etc. is your spec and the local dealer. I have seen many apparatus committee's that spend days figuring out if the light bar sould be red on the left and blue on the right (or vis versa), but have no idea what pump is right, or the difference between a jake brake and a telma retarder (and how that will affect maintenance). I have also seen good spec's that were not followed because the manufacture &/or dealer knew you'd accept whatever they built as long as the stripes and lights looked cool.

In the last 25 years my dept. has owned: ALF (2 different companies), LTI, Maxium, Pierce, RD Murry, Seagrave, Sutphen, SVI and we are soon to get a smeal. They have been on ALF, Pirce, Seagrave, Simon-Duplex, Spartan and Sutphen Chassies.

All have been fine and all have had major issues.

Almost every manufacture uses the same tires, wheels, axles, brakes, engines, transmissions, pumps, drivetrains, seats, mirrors, lights, filters, etc.

Write a good performance spec that meets your needs then let the dealers fight to prove who will build you what you want for the most reasonable (note: not cheapest) price.

If the bids are close, then consider reputations, recommendations and past experiences in making the final cut.

Remember your spec (and the follow thru) is what will make or break this engine.

Good luck

Bnechis -- Thank your very much for your input. Our committee will take your comments under consideration. We appreciate your help.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

mfc 2257 -- I really do not think you need any additional information. Seems to be your on a witch hunt and making a mountain out of a mole hill. All of your questions have no relevance to my original question. Like most of the posts everyone goes off in every direction except for answering the original question. Everything you are asking has already been put on the table by me.

All we are trying to find out is your opinion on the various manufacturers out there (Pro's & con's/Good or bad aspects about the manufacturers and any major problems you have had). Any sound help would be greatly appreciated.

1. You incorrectly asked about a supply engine when you were really asking about a 2nd due.

2. I don't think anyone but a dealer would be willing to recommend anything to you without knowing more about your district.

3. You were very vague and unspecific about what you wanted from the truck. If you can fit the requirements of an engine into less than 10 lines of text you should be working for a design firm or something.

4. If you want opinions on manufactures look in the dozens of past threads on here in the past years, literally all of your answers have been answered there several times.

5. You asked for this help and assistance was forthcoming, I do not appreciate your tone and I am sure mfc does not either.

[Rescue85 4]

1. You incorrectly asked about a supply engine when you were really asking about a 2nd due.

2. I don't think anyone but a dealer would be willing to recommend anything to you without knowing more about your district.

3. You were very vague and unspecific about what you wanted from the truck. If you can fit the requirements of an engine into less than 10 lines of text you should be working for a design firm or something.

4. If you want opinions on manufactures look in the dozens of past threads on here in the past years, literally all of your answers have been answered there several times.

5. You asked for this help and assistance was forthcoming, I do not appreciate your tone and I am sure mfc does not either.

Looks who talking, a green horn. 1) Your wrong. I asked correctly. 2) Was not looking for recommendations. Looking for feedback from companies who recently purchased apparatus. 3) Again your completely wrong. 4) Not looking for options, again looking for feedback. 5) I don't appreciate your tone from a rookie. Yes I asked for help and everyone goes off the train tracks in different directions.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Rescue85

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Looks who talking, a green horn. 1) Your wrong. I asked correctly. 2) Was not looking for recommendations. Looking for feedback from companies who recently purchased apparatus. 3) Again your completely wrong. 4) Not looking for options, again looking for feedback. 5) I don't appreciate your tone from a rookie. Yes I asked for help and everyone goes off the train tracks in different directions.

Hey guy,

These firefighters did their best to try and help you out, but the confusion was created by you when you stated you were looking for something, yet upon further questioning, they pointed out to you you might actually be looking for something else (supply engine vs. more versatile pumper).

Don't come back with antagonistic comments and insult the members. A guy with a couple of dozen posts on this board has no right calling out more experienced members here as rookies, and green-horns, etc. If you don't like what they have to say, the best course of action is to ignore it, and move on. Okay?

I'd ask the other members to cease and desist with this guy; don't take the bait.

Have a nice weekend everybody.

[Rescue85 4]

Hey guy,

These firefighters did their best to try and help you out, but the confusion was created by you when you stated you were looking for something, yet upon further questioning, they pointed out to you you might actually be looking for something else (supply engine vs. more versatile pumper).

Don't come back with antagonistic comments and insult the members. A guy with a couple of dozen posts on this board has no right calling out more experienced members here as rookies, and green-horns, etc. If you don't like what they have to say, the best course of action is to ignore it, and move on. Okay?

I'd ask the other members to cease and desist with this guy; don't take the bait.

Have a nice weekend everybody.

Thank you and everyone else for their comments.

[mfc2257 464]

.

Edited March 20, 2011 by mfc2257

[TL2L31 8]

I work on fleet vehicles and if anything try to stay away from International. We only have 2 left and have had nothing but problems with both of them. If you go with a commercial chassis we have a couple of Freightliners that arent too bad. Every truck might have a bug in the beginning. We are getting our first Kenworth very soon and run mostly Macks which are dependable.

[Rescue85 4]

I work on fleet vehicles and if anything try to stay away from International. We only have 2 left and have had nothing but problems with both of them. If you go with a commercial chassis we have a couple of Freightliners that arent too bad. Every truck might have a bug in the beginning. We are getting our first Kenworth very soon and run mostly Macks which are dependable.

TL2L31 -- Thanks very much for your comments.

[conman 40]

We run both international and mack. We've had the internationals for a little over 9 years and they run great for us. Our mack which is our tanker is 17 years old and still runs strong. I have heard some negative things about kenworth from a neighboring department and they got rid of it. If a commercial cab is what your department wants to run with, I would say ask some surrounding departments what they think of their commercial chassis' and go from there. Everyone has an issue with what they run and every truck will have some sort of bug even if it's brand new.

[Rescue85 4]

We run both international and mack. We've had the internationals for a little over 9 years and they run great for us. Our mack which is our tanker is 17 years old and still runs strong. I have heard some negative things about kenworth from a neighboring department and they got rid of it. If a commercial cab is what your department wants to run with, I would say ask some surrounding departments what they think of their commercial chassis' and go from there. Everyone has an issue with what they run and every truck will have some sort of bug even if it's brand new.

Thanks Conman for your comments.