How Do You Benchmark Response Times?

[LineCapt 134]

In Westchester, one of the biggest issues I see are response times, both FD and EMS.

While their are a variety of factors, including career and volunteer first due apparatus, geography, etc, how can a proper response time be determined?

Hopefully this never happens, but for example only your house is burning down, and you know it can be saved by a swift response, how long do you want to wait?

And, how can response times be enforced, if any, and not altered by "clock stopper" responses, such as the arrival of a Chief in a non-suppresion vehicle? Who's job is it to take a stand and say "this is unacceptable" and things need to change?

As far as manpower, an engine can get there in 3 minutes, but not have enough personel to start suppresion.

[firecapt32 282]

Better question is when does the clock start?? when 911 is called? when FD is notified? when page goes out? When apparatus respond?? Asking the Dispatchers on here---how long can it take from reciept of call till department is notified? then how long befor an apparatus logs on as responding ,not chiefs car,but a supression vehicle?. Lets not kid our selves it take a litle while from reciept of alarm at any fire station before the apparatus get on the road. Getting everyone to the map, Checking the address, making sure you know where the hydrants are, best route, getting dressed, all take a little time.

[16fire5 693]

Onondaga county made the response times of the departments in the county public this year and I like how they did it. They listed chiefs and suppression apparatus second. The also listed the percentage of time the home department was beat in by auto aid (nearly every structural response outside the City of Syracuse gets significant auto aid). It was food for plenty of discussion. One department has already been absorbed by a neighboor and other discussion have occured.

Getting everyone to the map, Checking the address, making sure you know where the hydrants are, best route, getting dressed, all take a little time.

I agree this takes time but makes our response safer and we arrive with better intelegence.

[JBE 328]

I can only speak from my experience, but as far as I'm concerned, the clock starts when the first phone call is made to the Fire Department. A quick turnaround from picking up that phone to having units on the road is paramount. We have an average processing time of about 45 seconds to a minute in the city. The one problem that has come to light with the "changes" in NYC is we don't know how long that caller has been on the line with PD before we talk to them.

But, if you can bang out a call and tone out fire departments in two minutes or less, that's optimal, in my opinion. Doesn't sound like a lot of time to do it, but it can be done by a properly trained calltaker/dispatcher.

As for how long it takes for a crewed apparatus to arrive and start suppression, isn't there a national acceptable standard?? With certain things like geography, etc already factored in??

[wraftery 1,275]

Actual response time starts when the fire is discovered, not when it is received by a PSAP. The problem is that we can't document this time. We have all seen videos of many people watching a fire grow but nobody makes the call to initiate the response process. How long did it take for the plumber, for example, to attempt to put the fire out before dialing 911?

Add this to the time on ouur side of the time line ( also including getting off the rig and walking up 4 floors or so)and you will be surprised at the true time it takes for the first drop of water to flow.

[Ga-Lin 86]

From time call is received to tones going out = processing time. From tones to the time needed resources begin to respond (Ambulance, Engine etc. leave quarters not just chiefs car.) = Assembly time. From time resources leave quarters to time on scene = travel time. Processing time + Assembly time + travel time = Total response time. We have control, or at least, are able to know all of these different pieces. It would take time (no pun intended) to colate that info so we could see where (if any) area can be improved.

[M' Ave 1,466]

I can only speak from my experience, but as far as I'm concerned, the clock starts when the first phone call is made to the Fire Department. A quick turnaround from picking up that phone to having units on the road is paramount. We have an average processing time of about 45 seconds to a minute in the city. The one problem that has come to light with the "changes" in NYC is we don't know how long that caller has been on the line with PD before we talk to them.

JBE, you are 100% correct, but you put this very gently. Since the advent of the UTC system, response times have been printed as having been reduced. This is most certainly not the case. We all know that response times have increased. They achieved a better response time on paper by simply changing the time keeping rules. Time spent with a UCT operator is not counted and therefor the clock starts later, after the information is sent to FD/PD/EMS, ect. So off the bat, we have an increase in response times. What do we get for this added time? Nothing except a reduction in the quality and reliability of information. I WISH I had statistics, but we are responding to more erroneous calls for fire with no 10-7 available. All too often we respond to what turns out to be a 10-75 with little or no information. We get an address, cross-street and something that reads "Multidwell - A". That's it! So we have a run for fire or smoke in a multiple-dwelling. The city has made our job and yours (the dispatchers) harder and reduced the quality of service we can provide, simply to lower a number they can print in the paper.

There should be a national standard for measuring response times. When does it start and when does it end. Response times are used as a weapon for cutbacks by city halls all over the country. They do this by duping the public. If they close the ladder on City Island, they say, "it's okay, a UNIT will be there in about 4 minutes. What if a person is hanging out of the 3rd floor window with heavy fire on the 2nd floor. What can the engine do? Nothing, except try to put the fire out without ventilation and forcible entry teams. Back to that person on the window sill; That poor soul has to wait 9:33 seconds for 61 truck from Co-op city. Hope they're not on a stuck elevator run...then you'll be waiting for...uh...good question, maybe 59 Truck off the Bruckner or 51 Truck on Eastchester Rd.?

I'm sure I could continue this diatribe with the issue of how long it takes to get water on the fire, but I feel like I'm starting to beat the dead horse. Response time recording methods should be standardized and the clock should start when 911 is dialed and end when ALL units needed TO BEGIN fire suppression are on scene. Perhaps that's the first 1+1 or really 2+1 in the FDNY case.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Our times start when the 911 line "rings" at the PSAP. Even before it's answered a clock time stamps the call. This ensures every part of using the emergency service system is part of the actual response time. To the person making the report or awaiting fire/EMS/LE services they've now put in their request and they start their clock. Any "start time" after their clock starts means little to them. They know they told someone they need help, now they're waiting for help to arrive.

We have many local FD's and EMS services that want to use other times: Tone times, tone acknowledged times, station alerting times, you name it, anything that takes dispatch (something not in their direct control) out of the time clock. This is "easier" then demanding decent service from dispatch I guess, and of course their numbers look better. Our guys take some crap from other departments for being on the road before the tones drop, but when we explain our clock starts at the very first time stamp, they shut up quickly.

On the other end it is not as easy to measure the best time. The best case would be for the time to stop when either the appropriate level of service was on scene and ready to begin actual mitigation (patient care, active criminal interdiction or fire attack. Of course most of the country cannot agree on what is the appropriate level to begin work, so we fall back on the first arriving mitigation unit. For fire calls in my FD this is an engine company or ambulance on EMS calls. The problem for us is that in our NFIRs reporting system if anyone arrives ahead of the appropriate unit, if their times are documented, that's what goes into the response time formula. So a first arriving chief stops the clock or an engine company arriving before a delayed ambulance.

[Remember585 815]

Good question, hard to answer.

Department A gets dispatched to all of Department B's structural fires. Department A gets paged off of the Anytown transmitter, then the Othertown transmitter. Department B has to be paged off of the Ghettotown transmitter after the two pages for Department A. Now, the event is created in the CAD system at 17:00, the first page for "AFD" is at 17:01 followed by their second page commencing at 17:02. Then, "BFD" gets their page which ends at 17:03.

What time does Department B go with?

I never really paid attention to this "dilemma" until I started processing our NFIRS. If we use the original dispatch time, which doesn't open our pagers, it makes it look like our response is almost three minutes longer than it might actually be, no?

Also take into consideration the REAL time of notification: When the 911 calls begin coming in. In Westchester, most 911 calls go to their local PD or NYSP (ignoring cellular for this case). The PD obtains whatever information they want to get, then either transfer the 911 call to 60 Control or hang up (not the right thing to do!) and call 60 Control and give us the info they just took. Who's to say how long that transfer of information is taking prior to getting to the FD dispatcher?

Ideally, a central 911 answering point (or at least one for all of Westchester sans Yonkers, White Plains, Mount Vernon?) with the ability to process the calls into a CAD system capable of telling the call taker what resources to dispatch (again, preferably from the same office) would save time, save money (nee: redundancy) and provide for a more uniform processing of calls.

IMHO... of course.

[JM15 386]

We are in a customer service oriented business.. Look at it from the point of view of the customer. Response time should start when they dial 911 until an appropriate resource arrives on scene.