FDNY Chiefs' Union Pres Says Don't Volunteer

[Guest x2371]

FDNY Chiefs' Union Pres Says Don't Volunteer

Updated: 08-08-2005 01:39:56 PM

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SUSAN EDELMAN

Courtesy of New York Post

August 7, 2005 -- Volunteer firefighters are seeing red over comments by the president of the FDNY chiefs' union, who is telling members not to join their hometown volunteer fire departments, The Post has learned. "We ask you not to be a volunteer firefighter in your community," Pete Gorman, president of the United Fire Officers Association, says in his latest report to members.

His words have spread like wildfire around the state, which boasts 94,588 volunteer firefighters — including thousands of "two-hatters" among 17,472 career firefighters, says the Firemen's Association of the State of New York.

Most towns on Long Island and upstate rely on volunteer departments, and many paid firefighters consider it a badge of honor to serve them.

In his online "president's report," Gorman says professional firefighters who join volunteer departments might jeopardize union health benefits if members get sick or injured fighting blazes off professional duty.

He also complains that chiefs from Long Island and Westchester park marked volunteer cars at the city Fire Academy — and that Mayor Bloomberg notices.

"So when we talk money with the mayor, he reminds me that our guys would do it for nothing," Gorman writes.

Gorman is especially irked by FDNY firefighters who join "combination departments," like those in Garden City and Long Beach, L.I., which include both paid personnel and volunteers. Union officials believe this eliminates potential jobs.

The FDNY says only 128 of its 11,000-member force have notified the department, as required, that they are also volunteers. But some may not report it, officials said, because union rules forbid it.

Volunteers insist what they do on their off-time is their business, but Gorman told The Post, "If you're a member of a union, it's my business." He added, "When New York City cops volunteer and drive around in Nassau and Suffolk cop cars, I'll let my guys drive around in Nassau and Suffolk firetrucks."

Both the UFOA and the Uniformed Firefighters Association say members who join volunteer departments are subject to expulsion from the union.

They rarely enforce the rule, but ask volunteers to drop their pro bono work.

"The union has no right to tell firefighters what they can or can't do in their spare time," said Edward Carpenter, president of the state Fireman's Association.

[ems-buff 81]

Firefighting was originally a volunteer base system way before paid departments were even a idea. I think that is horrible to think that the chiefs are doing that ether leave your volunteer department or suffer the consequences. They should really sit down and think about how many men the could possibly lose over this, and also i consider that a theat by the chiefs.

[JBE 328]

It's a union thing. IMHO, I don't think he has a problem with an FDNY member serving in a volunteer department as much as a combination department such as Port Chester or the LI departments mentioned. Don't take it personal folks. He's trying to look out for his own who have worked without a contract for God knows how long.

[TSull 33]

Firefighting was originally a volunteer base system way before paid departments were even a idea. I think that is horrible to think that the chiefs are doing that ether leave your volunteer department or suffer the consequences. They should really sit down and think about how many men the could possibly lose over this, and also i consider that a theat by the chiefs.

[TSull 33]

As I read this, I did not see any request from President Gorman to his membership to also stop working 2nd jobs as plumbers, electricians, carpenters, police officers, and any other 2nd job that is also unionized. I agree that a UFA/UFOA/IAFF member should not volunteer in a combination department that employs IAFF members. If you single out one group of "union busters" then single out all union busters.

FDNY Chiefs' Union Pres Says Don't Volunteer

Updated: 08-08-2005 01:39:56 PM

E-MAIL THIS STORY  PRINT THIS STORY

SUSAN EDELMAN

Courtesy of New York Post

August 7, 2005 -- Volunteer firefighters are seeing red over comments by the president of the FDNY chiefs' union, who is telling members not to join their hometown volunteer fire departments, The Post has learned. "We ask you not to be a volunteer firefighter in your community," Pete Gorman, president of the United Fire Officers Association, says in his latest report to members.

His words have spread like wildfire around the state, which boasts 94,588 volunteer firefighters — including thousands of "two-hatters" among 17,472 career firefighters, says the Firemen's Association of the State of New York.

Most towns on Long Island and upstate rely on volunteer departments, and many paid firefighters consider it a badge of honor to serve them.

In his online "president's report," Gorman says professional firefighters who join volunteer departments might jeopardize union health benefits if members get sick or injured fighting blazes off professional duty.

He also complains that chiefs from Long Island and Westchester park marked volunteer cars at the city Fire Academy — and that Mayor Bloomberg notices.

"So when we talk money with the mayor, he reminds me that our guys would do it for nothing," Gorman writes.

Gorman is especially irked by FDNY firefighters who join "combination departments," like those in Garden City and Long Beach, L.I., which include both paid personnel and volunteers. Union officials believe this eliminates potential jobs.

The FDNY says only 128 of its 11,000-member force have notified the department, as required, that they are also volunteers. But some may not report it, officials said, because union rules forbid it.

Volunteers insist what they do on their off-time is their business, but Gorman told The Post, "If you're a member of a union, it's my business." He added, "When New York City cops volunteer and drive around in Nassau and Suffolk cop cars, I'll let my guys drive around in Nassau and Suffolk firetrucks."

Both the UFOA and the Uniformed Firefighters Association say members who join volunteer departments are subject to expulsion from the union.

They rarely enforce the rule, but ask volunteers to drop their pro bono work.

"The union has no right to tell firefighters what they can or can't do in their spare time," said Edward Carpenter, president of the state Fireman's Association.

[RichC 0]

TSull, That is an excellent point on the 2nd unionized jobs. It is a point that I have never heard or read of an effective counter to.

[lickeystickey 1]

TSull, That is an excellent point on the 2nd unionized jobs. It is a point that I have never heard or read of an effective counter to.

[/quote

the rebutle is that they are being paid they aren't taking a job for free. Most of the career firefighters I know are not working as carpenters or electricians or whatever on union job sites. bottom line you shouldn't volunteer to take anyones job.

Edited August 11, 2005 by lickeystickey

[ajsbear 11]

TSULL, I have to agree with you. If the union says that by volunteering especially in a combo department takes away jobs, then working a second job in any profession that has a union but you are working as non union help, you are also taking away possible union jobs. You cannot discriminate.

[lickeystickey 1]

TSULL, I have to agree with you. If the union says that by volunteering especially in a combo department takes away jobs, then working a second job in any profession that has a union but you are working as non union help, you are also taking away possible union jobs. You cannot discriminate.

the differance is they are being paid not volunteering to do plumbing or elec. or anything else that takes a job from another.

[Guest ksneubec]

the differance is they are being paid not volunteering to do plumbing or elec. or anything else that takes a job from another.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can't speak for all volunteers, but I am definitely not stealing a paid job from a career firefighter. My town, like most smaller towns and cities, can't afford paid firefighters. I wasn't given a choice to get paid or volunteer when I joined. Trust me, if they asked me if I could be paid or volunteer, I would have chosen paid too.

[firebuff860 54]

the differance is they are being paid not volunteering to do plumbing or elec. or anything else that takes a job from another.

Lickey,

I think the point being made is said career FF is working at his second job (painter, plumber, electrician) far below union prevailing wage. If he was not doing that, the union worker would get the job. If your arguement is just the fact of being paid, then you must not have a problem with the custodian being paid in Purchase and other Dept's to roll the rigs.

[ONLOCATION 24]

Basically this Article is insane.

[Lt181 0]

Somebody should remind these guys that if they created a paid fire departmemt in the communities they live in, they would no longer be able to afford to live there after the increase to their taxes.

Oh, and by the way, your welcome. Some of these paid guys seem awfullly ungratefull of the fire/EMS protection we volunteer to provide them in their home towns.

One question, if a carpenter, electrician or plumber volunteered those skills to help a needy family or organization, is he wrong for taking away a potential paying job?

Edited August 12, 2005 by Lt181

[lickeystickey 1]

I can't speak for all volunteers, but I am definitely not stealing a paid job from a career firefighter. My town, like most smaller towns and cities, can't afford paid firefighters. I wasn't given a choice to get paid or volunteer when I joined. Trust me, if they asked me if I could be paid or volunteer, I would have chosen paid too.

I agree working at all volunteer dept. is not my beef. However, if you do this for a living and then vol. somewhere on your spare time, how does the city or town you work for know that you did not get injured or sick from something you did as a vol.? Also some small towns and cities need to check the ins. ratings and budget to see what is best for them.

[lickeystickey 1]

Lickey,

I think the point being made is said career FF is working at his second job (painter, plumber, electrician) far below union prevailing wage.  If he was not doing that, the union worker would get the job.  If your arguement is just the fact of being paid, then you must not have a problem with the custodian being paid in Purchase and other Dept's to roll the rigs.

the old saying you get what you pay for, if you want to hire a ff to sweat tubing thats your choice. As for Purchase seems like they found a way around hiring the guys that scored high on the civil service exam. Are the custodians vollies from Purchase? Did they take the civil service test? Are they in the top three from there town?

[lickeystickey 1]

Somebody should remind these guys that if they created a paid fire departmemt in the communities they live in, they would no longer be able to afford to live there after the increase to their taxes.

Oh, and by the way, your welcome. Some of these paid guys seem awfullly ungratefull of the fire/EMS protection we volunteer to provide them in their home towns.

One question, if a carpenter, electrician or plumber volunteered those skills to help a needy family or organization, is he wrong for taking away a potential paying job?

they need to check the fd budget and ins. rating. It may cancel out the increase if there is any.

Oh, and by the way, some of these vollies feel there owed benifits for what they volunteer to do. doesn't that just make them under paid firefighters?

Why don't you donate cash or volunteer to do fundraiser work so you can pay someone to help those families?

[capt2102 64]

I HAVE BEEN A CAREER FIREFIGHTER FOR 24 YEARS AND HAVE WORKED A 2ND JOB MOST OF THAT TIME. POINT #1... MOST GUYS WORK JOB # 2 TO BE ABLE TO RAISE THEIR FAMILY, PAY COLLEGE BILLS ETC. YOU ARE NOT GONNA GET RICH BEING A CAREER FIREFIGHTER; TRUST ME. POINT #2.. I HAVE NEVER MADE LESS THAN THE PREVAILING WAGE IN ANY JOB I WORKED AT... IN FACT I WAS A DUES PAYING TEAMSTER AND A DUES PAYING I.A.F.F. MEMBER AT THE SAME TIME. PETER GORMAN IS NOT A CHIEF TELLING HIS MEN TO DO SOMETHING... HE IS A UNION PRESIDENT AND CAREER FIRE OFFICER. I AGREE WITH PETE.

[Guest SQUADco119]

U know i see where everyone is coming from but the only thing i have to say is that we as fireman forget the real reason we do it. Yes its becuase we want to help save/protect people/ protect thier property , provide a service to a city a town what have u. But the one thing and the only thing that keeps me doing it is that i love doing it. Now im a volli hopefully paid some day. I just dont see the big FU***** deal with volunteering. I know that they keep saying its a union thing but its not when i leave work from my job i volunteer its not a problem with my union as a matter of fact we volunteer while working so nobody can give you that line of crap. People (the higher ups) need to remeber its a service to help people a service of brotherhood a bond you wont get with anyother job wehter its done volunteering or paid the service is thier. And to say that were taking jobs away lol what a load of crap we were volunteering in the fire service before we were paid and its up to the village, town etc officials not us if were doing a good job providing a good enough service than your taxes being cheaper pay off in 2 ways not just 1. :angry: :angry:

[Lt181 0]

Why don't you donate cash or volunteer to do fundraiser work so you can pay someone to help those families?

That could be the greediest statement I have ever read on this board. I am not a naive person, of course people have to earn a living, but there are times where you can do something because it is the right thing to do, not just to get paid.

[stephen morea 1]

to LT181, RIGHT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bjg411 0]

Another important thing to note that was not explicitly stated in the article was that often times volunteer and professional departments are competing for the same grant money. As such, a chief for the fdny could potentially be lobbying for grant money for his vollie department, thus potentially taking money away from the fdny. It is a fact, there is only a limited amount of money being given out by the federal governement. Right now there is a battle brewing in congress over how this money should be spent. There are many who feel that this money should be spent equitably, that is to say, a vollie company in the middle of nowhere is entitled to a sum of money disproportionate to the the risks in their district.

It is a union issue in the sense that the union is concerned with the health and safety of its members. If the union feels that its members could be bettter trained and equipped, and that vollies are preventing this from happening, then it is only logical that they prevent their members from volunteering.

[bmfd231 3]

Another important thing to note that was not explicitly stated in the article was that often times volunteer and professional departments are competing for the same grant money.  As such, a chief for the fdny could potentially be lobbying for grant money for his vollie department, thus potentially taking money away from the fdny.  It is a fact, there is only a limited amount of money being given out by the federal governement.  Right now there is a battle brewing in congress over how this money should be spent.  There are many who feel that this money should be spent equitably, that is to say, a vollie company in the middle of nowhere is entitled to a sum of money disproportionate to the the risks in their district.

It is a union issue in the sense that the union is concerned with the health and safety of its members.  If the union feels that its members could be bettter trained and equipped, and that vollies are preventing this from happening, then it is only logical that they prevent their members from volunteering.

I don't agree with your statement that volunteers are taking money from FDNY. If all the departments in the country were paid, as you would like to see, they would still be lobbying for that money, maybe even more than now. Now, as volunteers, we lobby for monies to supplement and improve the training and equipment, just as you want to do. If we were paid, we would want that money even more because villages and towns are already paying millions just to have the paid department with all the union dues and costs that go with it.

There is a place for paid and a place for volunteers. We should all work to support each other!

[MF237 2]

ONE OF GORMAN'S CONCERNS WAS FF'S BEING HURT WHILE VOLUNTEERING. DOES ANYONE HAVE STATS THAT COMPARE THE NUMBER OF VOLUNTEERS HURT AT A STRUCTURE FIRE AS COMPARED TO PAID FF'S. IN WESTCHESTER IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO SEE VOLUNTEER STATS VERSE SAY THAT OF YONKERS

[Guest]

ONE OF GORMAN'S CONCERNS WAS FF'S BEING HURT WHILE VOLUNTEERING. DOES ANYONE HAVE STATS THAT COMPARE THE NUMBER OF VOLUNTEERS HURT AT A STRUCTURE FIRE AS COMPARED TO PAID FF'S. IN WESTCHESTER IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO SEE VOLUNTEER STATS VERSE SAY THAT OF YONKERS

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

FYI Just a few months ago a FDNY Firefighter was out on disability sick leave from the city and he was Vollie Chief out on Long Island and was badly hurt in an explosion in a Long Island Fire it was all over the papers. now his family will suffer.

How stupid can someone get. I'm sorry i don't remember all of the story.

Edited August 13, 2005 by BOSFD

[ex-commish 490]

I HAVE BEEN A CAREER FIREFIGHTER FOR 24 YEARS AND HAVE WORKED A 2ND JOB MOST OF THAT TIME. POINT #1... MOST GUYS WORK JOB # 2 TO BE ABLE TO RAISE THEIR FAMILY, PAY COLLEGE BILLS ETC. YOU ARE NOT GONNA GET RICH BEING A CAREER FIREFIGHTER; TRUST ME. POINT #2.. I HAVE NEVER MADE LESS THAN THE PREVAILING WAGE IN ANY JOB I WORKED AT... IN FACT I WAS A DUES PAYING TEAMSTER AND A DUES PAYING I.A.F.F. MEMBER AT THE SAME TIME. PETER GORMAN IS NOT A CHIEF TELLING HIS MEN TO DO SOMETHING... HE IS A UNION PRESIDENT AND CAREER FIRE OFFICER. I AGREE WITH PETE.

I understand that paid ff's are underpaid and in some cases need to work a side job. You claim you carried a teamsters card. You are probably in a minority as most career ff's do not carry union cards in thier trades that they work in. This is not the issue however. I feel what one does on his or her time off is a personal decision and should not b dictated by a union president or anyone else for that matter. Mr Gorman's concern is oneof his members getting hurt while volunteering. I believe this to be a concern. But is not roofing or doing electrical work somewhat dangerous? How about working EMS on the side? Are there not risks there as well? My point is where does it end? Stay safe all!!!

[jloftus 28]

Everybody is right here, The bottom line is if a paid guy gets killed in the line-of-duty as a voly his family losses big time. I'm paid, I have nothing against a voly but if I'm gonna go down my family has to be protected. Also dont get tight if your a voly its not about you.

Ladder 2 FDMV

[Lucifer 6]

This is a copy of the statement:

This was taken from the UFOA July '05 bulletin:

UFOA Members as Volunteer Firefighters

Whenever I approach this subject, I know that I will be inundated with hate mail. But the UFOA is a labor organization and we have a responsibility to our members and our brother and sister professional firefighters. First, I want to be clear that this union has the utmost respect for the volunteer fire service and for their commitment and dedication to their communities. Our message is directed only to our members. We ask you not to be a volunteer firefighter in your community.

Why? Because this union and the UFA worked hard to pass presumptive legislation to protect you. If you develop certain heart ailments, lung diseases, cancers, hepatitis C and TB, it is presumed to have occurred as a result of your employment as a professional firefighter. When you fight fires as a volunteer you jeopardize our bills for the future. The membership should also realize that there are paid professional firefighters in Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester and Orange Counties. In the past we have had members in Garden City, Long Beach and several other departments where there are paid union firefighters. Would you let an unpaid volunteer work on your FDNY company? Now you know how they feel.

It has also come to our attention that volunteer Chief cars from Bethpage, Setauket, Dobbs Ferry, Port Washington and Malverne sometimes park at the Fire Academy. I'm sure the mayor makes note of this when he visits. So when we talk money with the mayor, he reminds me that our guys would do it for nothing.

At the very least, please leave your volunteer Chief's cars home or park them off site and don't park them at your firehouse.

My opinion:

As a labor leader, President Gorman is doing what he believes is proper for his entire membership. I agree with him from a labor stand point. If actions by some can have a negative impact for all, such as the presumptive illness legislation and the image put forth impacting contract negotiations, he is proper in asking his members to refrain from activities that jepordize these principles.

[TSull 33]

I HAVE BEEN A CAREER FIREFIGHTER FOR 24 YEARS AND HAVE WORKED A 2ND JOB MOST OF THAT TIME.  POINT #1... MOST GUYS WORK JOB # 2 TO BE ABLE TO RAISE THEIR FAMILY, PAY COLLEGE BILLS ETC.  YOU ARE NOT GONNA GET RICH BEING A CAREER FIREFIGHTER; TRUST ME.  POINT #2..  I HAVE NEVER MADE LESS THAN THE PREVAILING WAGE IN ANY JOB I WORKED AT... IN FACT I WAS A DUES PAYING TEAMSTER AND A DUES PAYING I.A.F.F. MEMBER AT THE SAME TIME.  PETER GORMAN IS NOT A CHIEF TELLING HIS MEN TO DO SOMETHING... HE IS A UNION PRESIDENT AND CAREER FIRE OFFICER.  I AGREE WITH PETE.

Do you volunteer in your town? The point is: to single out one group (volunteers) and not address all members who do things on their days off that can be considered "anti-union" is wrong.

[TBarnum 2]

Are all career firefighters volunteers in other departments? I don't think so. This topic is about a certain percentage, in a CERTAIN department, in a certain union local. Are the members of that union local going to listen to their UNION leader or do what they want. What if everybody decided to disregard what their respected leaders ask? If you don't like the leadership, work to change it.

As for union firefighters working second jobs in trades that are also unionized, THIS is a percentage also. I know union firefighters that only have the one job, or work in a non-unionized field. There are plumbers, carpenters, etc. that are union and THEY do side jobs on their own to bolster their income. And how come there are plumbers,carpenters, etc. that are NOT in a union when there is one? I think we need to look up the definition of union, especially if you have been sh*t on by your employer or management.

[TSull 33]

I agree working at all volunteer dept. is not my beef.  However, if you do this for a living and then vol. somewhere on your spare time, how does the city or town you work for know that you did not get injured or sick from something you did as a vol.? Also some small towns and cities need to check the ins. ratings and budget to see what is best for them.

I was a career FF in one town who was burned at a fire in my vollie dept. in my hometown. I was covered by my hometown's worker's comp. plan and I went non line of duty medical leave from my career FF job just as if I had gotten the flu or broke my leg skiing.