Check And Advise-FD Not Dispatched

[hudson144 150]

Over the years alot of the police depts have gotten alot better with recieving emergency calls via 911-however the old "CHECK AND ADVISE'' attitude still does exist. many benefits have come out of the 911 system especially when it comes to the fact that the incoming emergency call is recorded and its easier to check the tape for a quick review. Amazingly some of the dispatchers still have the CHECK AND ADVISE sickness which in turn does hamper us as firefighters being notified in a proper time frame. is this still present where you are? I know it is where I work in fact in many cases the FD is not even called! whats your scoop?

[Guest SQUADco119]

Its time for everyone in the county to switch to 60 control centralized dispatching. IT makes more sense period ok maybe they make some mistakes and we all do as humans but they dont do check and advises. Plus they are profesionals its thier job, but its what works best for your dept but i think it would help alot with all depts getting on the same page especially communication wise if we all went through 60. Just a thought this topic has been brought up alot of times and its sad that it has to to be but for whatever reason its still exist. Not knocking any police officers or agencies but thier cops why should they have to worry about what fd is going out on if we need them will request them and if they need fd response theyll request us. This seems like its always been a problem!!!!! We dont check and advise burgaler alarms or robberys why would we want to were not trianed too or equipped too plus i just think guns are plain out scary. Let us fight the red stuff. Basicly lets jusst all try to get along.

[CAM502 6]

"Central be advised this house really is on fire you better get the FD"

[Guest]

In my town, we switched to centralized dispatch a few years ago and in my opinion, it does more harm then good. The old CHECK AND ADVISE happenes more then not, and it not only delays the response of thr FD, but it gives the "other agency" more time to try to do something stupid while trying to be the hero .

[Guest skubasam]

Its time for everyone in the county to switch to 60 control centralized dispatching. IT makes more sense period ok maybe they make some mistakes and we all do as humans but they dont do check and advises. Plus they are profesionals its thier job, but its what works best for your dept but i think it would help alot with all depts getting on the same page especially communication wise if we all went through 60. Just a thought this topic has been brought up alot of times and its sad that it has to to be but for whatever reason its still exist. Not knocking any police officers or agencies but thier cops why should they have to worry about what fd is going out on if we need them will request them and if they need fd response theyll request us. This seems like its always been a problem!!!!! We dont check and advise burgaler alarms or robberys why would we want to were not trianed too or equipped too plus i just think guns are plain out scary. Let us fight the red stuff. Basicly lets jusst all try to get along.

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There are other professionals at work in the system, 60 CTL is not the end all be all. I fail to see how putting all of your eggs in one basket will solve the problem. Holding people to a standard and making them accountable for their actions is good practice for any job. Comments welcome.

[maisela 0]

I have to agree here with skubasam, a centralized county dispatch system is not going to solve all the problems. 60 Control has come a long way in getting departments on board but they still have a ways to go. It's a gradual process that has to be done with great care, no one wants them to bite off more than they can chew. Is 60 Control currently capable of handling dispatch for every fire and EMS agency in the county? In Northampton County, PA, where I go to school, every fire, police and EMS agency in the county are all dispatched centrally. There are fire/EMS specific dispatchers and then there are law enforcement specific ones. The system has a lot of advantages: A coordinated and streamlined mutual aid system, universal fireground frequencies for multi-agency incidents, simultaneous dispatch for fire and EMS rather than EMS agencies becoming aware of an incident through monitoring, etc. But like any system it has its flaws. There have been incidents where County has misinterpreted what PD has said and then hit the cancellation tones for responding fire units. The fire/EMS dispatcher sits only a couple feet away from the law enforcement dispatcher yet there are times when pertinent information from one end never make it to the other. I guess what I'm trying to say is that in a perfect world, a centralized dispatch system may cure the "check and advise" illness. But we don't live in a perfect world and it's really a mindset that people have that's responsible for the whole "check and advise" disease.

[Guest]

As much as I am for going to 60-Control, it definatley isn't the end-all for the problems.

The biggest issue is 60 is a secondary PSAP (Public Saftey Answering Point, AKA 911 Call Center), so the police department that answers the 911 calls stll has to foward them to 60 in order to get the FD dispatched. Not that there is anything that can be considered ideal in the emergency services field, but take a look at the Dutchess County 911 system. There are only 2 PSAPs (Dutchess 911, and City of Poughkeepsie). All the calls come into one place and go out from one place. If you need the PD, you get the PD, if you need the FD, you get the FD, and so on. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it's a step in the right direction that Westchester should look at. The biggest problem is that none of the individual agencies want to give up their piece of the pie.

**Also, I'm not 100% about the 2 PSAPs, but that what a friend from DC told me. If I am wrong, please correct me.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Toro hit it, going to 60 has benefits for other reasons, all 911 calls go through your local PD PSAP which is the biggest mistake.

I do disagree on those of you who feel putting all your eggs in one basket isn't the best option. Tell me why having local dispatching is the way to go with facts. This is why I support having one central PSAP:

In 1970 the President's Commission on a Emergency Number concluded and NENA (National Emergency Number Association) also recommends having:

1 single answering point for effective handling of emergency calls without lag delays in receiving information and to stop what we see now, no transfers, check and advise etc.

2. All major agencies in the US have central answering and many county systems like ours. Dutchess is a prime example of having effective primary PSAP for all 911 calls and then they filter to local PD's as well. It frees up having one or 2 PD dispatchers answering all calls and lets them focus on their jobs, being a law enforcment dispatcher and takes away the ability for check and advise which often also involves the desk Sgt. taking a call.

It would work well in Westchester, we all would have input on how to operate it making effective and efficient use in our frequencies, give all availability to pre-arrival instructions, increase efficiency and coordination of mutual aid as well. The large cities can keep it to themselves, White Plains, Mt. Vernon, all others go to one central location. Dutchess does this with City of Poughkeepsie having their own 911. How else? Make a central dispatching area, with call takers and those whom are on the radio instead of taking calls and dispatching, by pooling all county telecommunicators, 60 control and Westchester PD and put them all in a room together to answer calls and sort them, transfer them through to the appropriate local PD agency backed up with real time computer software that puts the info on a screen for that agency as the info is inputed, until their dispatch picks up the line and takes over the info. Listening to some PD dispatching, this would aid them greater on their "argument" that they need to get info from the caller, when half of their OTJ trained dispatchers miss valuable info.

Finally, I would like to see the coordination and delivery of a APCO certified dispatching academy jointly through the DES and PD academy required by the county for all working as dispatchers. Standardized is first the key to this problem.

[hudson144 150]

One of the biggest mistakes with the present system with the PD answering it is exactly why i started this, the PD where I am doesn''t even notify the FD on many emergencys,with a city who has hands full trying to resolve crimes, domestics etc; who's at falt? 1) the system 2) managers of both the FD/PD who still need to resolve dispatching protocall problems. we can go on and on with this one. I see it 1st hand how wrong the system is and someday a life will be lost because of not having the FD respond like most do throughout the states!

[Remember585 815]

In our district, we get dispatched by our local PD on a "case by case" basis.

What I mean by that is simple, regardless of how many policies, procedures or orders we give them explaining how we want things done, there is still certain members of this PD who do what they want. I take you back to January 18th of this year. Most of you probably remember it as the really windy day where almost all of us were out with wires down calls and the like. I was sitting in our firehouse with 4 other guys when a woman walked in. She informed me that the electrical lines up the street were on fire and she didn't know where else to go. I told her that she had come to the right place and that we would check it out.

Boy, am I naive. I called ********** and spoke to the desk Sergeant. I told him about the situation to get the reply, "No $hit, it's raining, that's what always happens." OK....I guess this wasn't the first time this has occurred.

As time went on that day, I later became informed of SEVERAL incidents that should of been turned over to FD that were not. Most of these were wires down calls, but one call that pissed me off was a tree down on a house. Why weren't we notified?

The biggest issue I have is with those we've elected into the position of Chiefs. They're supposed to look out for the community and are supposed to listen to the membership when we complain. But, not to stray from the subject, I will end this rant here.

Dispatching of emergency (VITAL) services is not to be taken lightly. If your agency so desires to be sent on anything - there should not be any arguement from your dispatchers! It is unacceptable for these local yokels to still, in 2006, play the game that will one day get someone killed. It's a pretty simple task if you ask me - get a call for help - dispatch it and ask questions later.

One answering point if setup properly and run correctly could benefit everyone in Westchester, end of story. The era of the Barney Fife Police dispatch is long gone, even before Don Knots passed away this weekend.

This and all of my opinions do not reflect any affiliations I have, but are my own.

[ONLOCATION 24]

A Subject that alot have Alot to say about. Control Seems like the way. Atleast from what has been happening lately. Maybe its just me? Screw Ups are really not excepatable by any one when some ones life is concerned.

[TR54 239]

Many times the proper procedures are followed and the outcome is good. But it needs to be everytime !! The public is told over and over to call 911 at the first sign of smoke. If the caller is calm , the dispatcher should not dismiss it as really no big deal.

Callers have been known to be unsure if a kitchen fire is extingushed completly.

A check and advise is a huge gamble !

If a resident is calling there is a problem. A Police officer should not be put in the postion of breathing in toxic smoke because the situation was downplayed on the phone.

We all know how quickly fire spreads , and every second counts.......

'When in Doubt ,,, send them out !"

Edited February 27, 2006 by TR54

[dadbo46 50]

Without a doubt, central dispatching is the way to go. Coordination, efficientcy, and professionalism are but a few of the reasons.

The multiple PSAPs in Westchester is a political issue that was resolved years ago by simply not adressing the issue. Multiple PSAPs creates a very fragile system that is fragmented and inefficient.

Speaking of which....perhaps consolidation of munipalities and or police departments and or fire departments should be studied again. While New York is a home rule state, somebody needs to wake up and have the guts to adressthis issue. We all complain about property taxes but don't want to bite the bullet and do anything about.

Just one man's opinion.....

Edited February 28, 2006 by dadbo46

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Funny enough a Lieutenant for the organization I work as a part time Paramedic for, made a offshoot comment in front of me after I returned from a call which the PD dispatcher is not very "effective" at performing. In this person's somewhat defense I believe they are fairly new (by weeks) but its not that hard to pick up on things when some of us try to correct you or let you now what is what. Anyway, as we were discussing how this person isn't getting it, he makes the comment "well the alternative is 60 and do we really want to go that route?"

I laughed and said yes and gave him my reasons why...which were numerous and stated on here several times...including, availability of EMD. Someone listening when you are on portable....coordination of mutual aid through one agency...etc.

I said give me one valid..note I said VALID reason why you shouldn't other then you can't grasp change.....he drew a blank face. If personal opinion of a agency is the reason why you can't change compared to all of the positives...you need to get real and reflect on what is good for the community at large.

So with that I challenge those who support PD dispatching your agency...GIVE ME VALID REASONS WHY NOT TO GO TO 60 CONTROL....

[JBE 328]

I'm not going to touch the whole going over to 60 or P-911 debate. However, it should be policy for EVERY PD to notify the respective Fire Dispatcher immediately after receipt of a fire or medical emergency. Or, the PD should be able to conference call the caller into 60 or P-911. Saves time and gets assets rolling instead of, "We have a report of an alarm ringing in this building, check and advise." Get a Chief or an Engine going anyway. Even if it is a BS run, PRODUCTIVITY!!!! Justification of existence to the people you protect.

Just some random thoughts....

[x242Steve 1]

You wouldn't send an Engine or Truck to "Check and Advise" on a report of shots fired...

[JBE 328]

I'm not talking about shots fired. I'm talking about situations where FD should be notified in a timely manner, and either that's not happening or no notification is made at all.

[x242Steve 1]

I'm not talking about shots fired. I'm talking about situations where FD should be notified in a timely manner, and either that's not happening or no notification is made at all.

←

JBE-- My post was in relation to the original topic, not to your post-- sorry for any confusion...

The point I was trying to make was-- You wouldn't send ONLY Fire Apparatus to a Criminal Problem, so why would you send ONLY Police Units to a Fire Problem?

[SEC92 0]

Alot of good comments in here along with some that seem misquided. There is alot that if I had the time I would take me all night to add. I will say though that be careful for what you wish for.

911 is not the cure for everything. Check and advise does have its appropriate uses depending upon the circumstances.

[hudson144 150]

any exception but FIRE!!!

[CAM502 6]

Just as JBE said, if it is fire related just transfer the caller over. There is no switchboard out there anymore where they can't transfer calls. This would cut down on PD dispatchers taking only half the info you need cause they don't know any better.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Check and advise has its uses for what?

911 hang ups.

Why aren't FD and EMS at least put on standby for 911 open lines? That is a standard protocol for many other agencies I was affiliated with or have colleagues in.

What else could a check and advise be good for in any regard for both a fire and/or EMS warranted call? I listen time and time again PD units being sent for a man down, "let me know what you need." Or "we got a call from 1234 xxxx st., there's a bit of a language problem but they are asking for an ambulance, ride up there, check it out and advise what you need."

Are you kidding me? Are we not aware of the fact a fire doubles in size every minute, or that your chances of survival of out of hospital cardiac arrest decrease 7-10% every minute without defib in conjunction with CPR. Centralized 911 is the answer, it has been the answer nationwide since 1970, but only in Westchester can we let the tail wag the dog yet again in emergency service.

[Guest]

Acording to the above post, I would have to put a fire engine and ambulance on stand by 12 times in the last hour alone.

[210 91]

I'm a full time police officer and in the city I work for all 911 calls are received at the police department, not because its a PD thing but its a good facility and logistically it works. All dispatchers are civilians not police officers. However, there are four dispatchers, (1) fire, (1) police, (1) EMS, and (1) call taker. Anything related to fire operations or possible fire operations is an automatic fire dispatch. No such thing as "check and advise". Our FD is a full time department. Our working realtionship with fire is awsome and if the FD needs a police response they will ask for same.

I agree with the above posts in reference to the "check and advise". Not a good procedure. Can't speak for anyone else but I would just asume not have to go and "check and advise". I have other things to do.

Edited March 9, 2006 by 210

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Tanker had it right.

Do all the local VFD's and VAC's want to be put on standby for all 911 calls that come in? If that is the case, you should have full time staff in your firehouse's or ambulance corps. Our PD gets all 911 calls from within the Town. Of course sometimes, actually most of the time, they are dialed in error or accidental. When a true 911 emergency comes in, a patrol car is sent and the right agency is dispatched immediatley either through 60 Control or another PD agency. It might not be the best system, but it works. If a patrol car gets on scene and see's a working fire, it gets called in as a working fire. Easy enough. 60 is notified and so is the responding agency.

So is it the position on here that all 911 calls come into 60 Control? I don't think they even want that. Confusion, Confusion, Confusion.

I will say this, 60 Control can take over our portion of EMS though. Please, do us the favor. No offense to the EMS system in our Town, just a pain in but sometimes.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Read my post again, I never said standby for every call or 911 hang ups...

I'm referring too when a caller dials 911 and the line remains open on the other end. In my municipality, open lines are not all that often. 911 hangs ups...forget about it. In fact in the 4 areas I've worked in for both fire and police, open lines were a rarity.

Tanker...if you had 12 911 open lines in one hour...wow. That is a $hitload.

Should all 911 calls go into 60 control....no. Should all calls come into 1 central location...YES. With the correct staffing to handle the volume and the way to do that would be to combine all county employee dispatchers DES and PD into one center and go from there. I don't see how it could be confusion, when the majority of all other 911 systems do that, including one not to far north in Dutchess County. Like I said, let the big cities keep it, they have systems in place, the rest of the county should be 1 central answering point and filter down. Also every dispatcher should be required to be certified even in the system now by APCO or a APCO approved course that includes EMD.

[210 91]

Read my post again, I never said standby for every call or 911 hang ups...

I'm referring too when a caller dials 911 and the line remains open on the other end.  In my municipality, open lines are not all that often.  911 hangs ups...forget about it.  In fact in the 4 areas I've worked in for both fire and police, open lines were a rarity. 

Tanker...if you had 12 911 open lines in one hour...wow.  That is a $hitload.

Should all 911 calls go into 60 control....no.  Should all calls come into 1 central location...YES.  With the correct staffing to handle the volume and the way to do that would be to combine all county employee dispatchers DES and PD into one center and go from there.  I don't see how it could be confusion, when the majority of all other 911 systems do that, including one not to far north in Dutchess County.  Like I said, let the big cities keep it, they have systems in place, the rest of the county should be 1 central answering point and filter down.  Also every dispatcher should be required to be certified even in the system now by APCO or a APCO approved course that includes EMD.

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I agree. Especially with your last sentence.

[JBE 328]

I wish they would give us APCO. The tight pursed FDNY won't give us jack for any training aside from the stuff they already teach.

[Guest]

There is no difference between a open line and a 911 hang up or misdirected call . They all require follow up. We cant just forget about it.

jbe apco training is no big deal your training at fdny is better.

In Massachusetts this is required to become a Public Safety Tele Ccommunicator

CT is Similar

Public Safety Telecommunicator

CPR Certification

Emergency Medical Dispatch

Enhanced 911 Certification

Fire Dispatch Certification

Police Dispatch Certification

Police,Fire EMS, Call Simulation

National Information Management System

Incident Command System

Suicide Prevention Course

Criminal Justice Information System Certification

Communications Round Table

About 16 Weeks

Then you go to in house training to learn how to dispatch :angry:

60 break out your check book

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

An open line on a 911 call could also mean a crime in progress. Home invasion, Domestic Dispute. The FD would do no good being dispatched to any of those calls.

I think that the bottom line is that IF there was a Central location for 911 calls, and there is an open line, does everyone get sent? I know that PD should get sent on everything. Whether they beat the FD or EMS is another thing, depending on call volume at that time.

I think that 911 should come into a Central Area except for the big cities. I hear that Baltimore City or County, can't remember has an awesome 911 command center. Would prob be big bucks though. Wishful thinking in this County.