wraftery

The only thing I can think that might be somewhat related would be trash chute fire, but then I'd think the stakes would be high enough to warrant a hoseline or the bowling ball?

That would be great! Paint it white with dri-erase board paint and the side of the water tank becomes an IC Board. You won't have to put sandbags in the back for better traction in ice storms either.

That would be great! Paint it white with dri-erase board paint and the side of the water tank becomes an IC Board. You won't have to put sandbags in the back for better traction in ice storms either.

Does anyone (other than snotty and I) remember when we used to carry gallon jugs of water with a rope attached?
Old timers, don't let out the answer.
What were they used for?

I disagree. All fire trucks should carry water............... in easily deployable 16-20 ounce plastic bottles.

No fire TRUCK should carry water, that is what ENGINES are for.

In older areas, natural gas distribution was low pressure. Gas suppliers have been changing the mains to high pressure which involves sliding plastic pipe through older galvanized pipe for building service. A gas leak in the street has the possibility of seeping through the space between the old pipe and the new pipe and entering the building.
This is not to say it's the cause of gas explosions or the possible increase in odor-of-gas runs. I just wrote this so you are aware of this possibility.

This statement alone defines the health of most fire departments, rural or not, paid or not.

I'm pretty sure we are on the same page. 75% of those who die in fires don't have working smoke detectors so although that's not that glamorous it should be a push. When we see fire departments frazzled with a simple working fire we know they are not going to be able to handle a fire with people trapped. I'm sure if you have experienced both you know the difference. If you are calm cool and collected on the fireground on a normal basis which is helped by training you will have the best shot at addressing life hazards. If a normal working fire is a cluster you probably won't be able to up your game when the real pressure is on.

I think this horse has been beaten beyond recognition. Yes 2 in 2 out is for our safety. Yes, we may stray from it under certain circumstances.
Yes Rit is 2-2's cousin and again for our safety. As far as I can see, straying from RIT rules is treading on dangerous turf because we have left our interior people out to dry.
Yes, a consolidated FD would do a world of good for Southern Westchester. As for Northern Westchester I believe the residents make enough money to support a paid department. Check out real estate values if you don't believe me.
One more thing to ponder:
A FF who gets 5 feet in the front door and makes a grab gets a medal. The guy that searches a whole house and finds no victim gets nothing. Who's task was more difficult, more dangerous?

I think this horse has been beaten beyond recognition. Yes 2 in 2 out is for our safety. Yes, we may stray from it under certain circumstances.
Yes Rit is 2-2's cousin and again for our safety. As far as I can see, straying from RIT rules is treading on dangerous turf because we have left our interior people out to dry.
Yes, a consolidated FD would do a world of good for Southern Westchester. As for Northern Westchester I believe the residents make enough money to support a paid department. Check out real estate values if you don't believe me.
One more thing to ponder:
A FF who gets 5 feet in the front door and makes a grab gets a medal. The guy that searches a whole house and finds no victim gets nothing. Who's task was more difficult, more dangerous?

I think this horse has been beaten beyond recognition. Yes 2 in 2 out is for our safety. Yes, we may stray from it under certain circumstances.
Yes Rit is 2-2's cousin and again for our safety. As far as I can see, straying from RIT rules is treading on dangerous turf because we have left our interior people out to dry.
Yes, a consolidated FD would do a world of good for Southern Westchester. As for Northern Westchester I believe the residents make enough money to support a paid department. Check out real estate values if you don't believe me.
One more thing to ponder:
A FF who gets 5 feet in the front door and makes a grab gets a medal. The guy that searches a whole house and finds no victim gets nothing. Who's task was more difficult, more dangerous?

Yes it is the mindset of the politicians and the voters, but it also is the mindset of the fire service. We complain of insufficient personnel, but when consolidation is suggested as a solution, we immediately say NO WAY. We have depts. that can never meet 2in/2out without mutual aid and they have convinced themselves and the public that they are providing a top notch service.

I live in Chesapeake, VA now, and distance between firehouses are much more than he mile or two I was used to in the northeast. In the rural areas of this city of 215,000, there are places where the first due engine (a tanker) is close to10 min for the run to the scene. Second due is another 10 min. As we have learned, a typical fire doubles every 10 min, so with 3-man companies, the first due cannot make entry legally and must wait for the second due to make entry. That means the fire has grown to four times the size it was when the homeowner called 911. Aside from an exterior knockdown and wait for another company, there's not much OSHA will let you do.
Let's say that when the first due pulls up, the homeowner announces to the officer that her baby is inside. The officer repeats this to his crew and one guy goes VES at a rear window and makes a grab of the baby. What happens to the Officer and FF? They are heros and OSHA keeps its mouth shut.
But let's say the baby dies because the ff was waiting for the 2-out?. OSHA again is probably silent.
If the baby dies and the FF is injured? OSHA hangs everybody
The Motto if the story: Life is not fair, OSHA will probably hang you, and FF's usually listen to their conscience when they calculate Risk Assessment.

I was going to bring this same idea up. I read an article and I think listened to a pod cast a few years ago about a concept called the Safety Engine. Other than adding a new title to the RIT / FAST debate, it outlines some basic not rescue duties of this crew.
Interestingly enough it placed them under the Safety Officer in ICS and not directly under the IC. This was because this type of operation was seen as a safety issue and it took direct supervision of any single unit from the IC so as not to bog down the guy who has to look at the big picture.
From what I can remember this crew would assemble all the required equipment for RIT operations, then instead of standing around waiting did 2 main things. 1 was to get at least one ground ladder to the second floor on each side of the building. This way they were either in place for a bail out or could be easily moved should a bail out or rescue at another point on that side be needed. 2 was in 2 teams of 2 (assuming a 4 man company) they did a secondary exposure size up to learn the building and any special rescue considerations that will be factors should a RIT operation start. One team does sides A/B or 1/2 and the other does sides 3/4 or C/d. They come back to the Safety Officer and report the findings before assuming the common stand by.
I will say that the one time I was a RIT officer I tried the size up idea. I lost 2 of my 6 guys doing this because they were grabbed by a Chief on the other side of the building and sent inside the building. When I asked them what happened they said the Chief told them to do it so they followed his orders. To be fair they probably did not like being RIT and would take any excuse to get out of that assignment and that Chief was an old timer who did not fully understand RIT and frequently either reassigned a RIT or allowed a RIT to freelance. Which goes back to the original question of how we apply the concept.

It may not have been your intention but this makes it sound as if the RIT/FAST must resist any tasks outside of an actual deployment? It is very common and taught by many, that the RIT/FAST may participate in proactive operations that do not compromise their ability to go to work (not overly demanding-physically, nearby and in communication and doesn't require breathing air). Most commonly, this means throwing ground ladders to ensure firefighter escape, removing locked obstructions for escape, etc. We all would love to be able to have enough personnel that these tasks could be otherwise effected, but if they cannot be completed do they then result in an actual RIT deployment vs. preventing the issue?

A recap for the guy in the street who have to put the fire out. Some are rules, some are things I learned along the way
RIT in a nutshell:
1. OSHA says if 2 are in, two must be out. Both must be qualifed as interior structural firefighters. This can be waived for a known rescue situation, but only temporarily
2. OSHA also says if there are more than 2 in, you still only need 2 out. Common sense says you must add to RIT team as conditions warrant.
3. Your RIT team is only for emergencies and is there only to protect the interior members. You cannot use them for other things.
4. If you use your RIT as noted in #3, you must establish a new RIT asap. Using RIT=call for an additional alarm
5 You can make a company RIT or more than one company RIT(appoint a RIT leader they are now a GROUP under ICS) They must all be interior qualified
6. Even if you go defensive, leave your RIT in place
7. A SCBA lasts about 20 minutes,.,,tops
8 One downed firefighter takes 2 companies to effect his rescue

True, antique, that is the premise: But I will guarantee that OSHA, NIOSH, and the gang that wasn't there at your job will take that one line "true evidence of a trapped occupant" and beat you up with it. They will hit you with "how tenable were conditions, how rapid was the fire escalating and so on. And they will wind up saying things like "Didn't it occur to you that the baby was more or less dead even before the decision to enter was made?"

I live in Chesapeake, VA now, and distance between firehouses are much more than he mile or two I was used to in the northeast. In the rural areas of this city of 215,000, there are places where the first due engine (a tanker) is close to10 min for the run to the scene. Second due is another 10 min. As we have learned, a typical fire doubles every 10 min, so with 3-man companies, the first due cannot make entry legally and must wait for the second due to make entry. That means the fire has grown to four times the size it was when the homeowner called 911. Aside from an exterior knockdown and wait for another company, there's not much OSHA will let you do.
Let's say that when the first due pulls up, the homeowner announces to the officer that her baby is inside. The officer repeats this to his crew and one guy goes VES at a rear window and makes a grab of the baby. What happens to the Officer and FF? They are heros and OSHA keeps its mouth shut.
But let's say the baby dies because the ff was waiting for the 2-out?. OSHA again is probably silent.
If the baby dies and the FF is injured? OSHA hangs everybody
The Motto if the story: Life is not fair, OSHA will probably hang you, and FF's usually listen to their conscience when they calculate Risk Assessment.

A recap for the guy in the street who have to put the fire out. Some are rules, some are things I learned along the way
RIT in a nutshell:
1. OSHA says if 2 are in, two must be out. Both must be qualifed as interior structural firefighters. This can be waived for a known rescue situation, but only temporarily
2. OSHA also says if there are more than 2 in, you still only need 2 out. Common sense says you must add to RIT team as conditions warrant.
3. Your RIT team is only for emergencies and is there only to protect the interior members. You cannot use them for other things.
4. If you use your RIT as noted in #3, you must establish a new RIT asap. Using RIT=call for an additional alarm
5 You can make a company RIT or more than one company RIT(appoint a RIT leader they are now a GROUP under ICS) They must all be interior qualified
6. Even if you go defensive, leave your RIT in place
7. A SCBA lasts about 20 minutes,.,,tops
8 One downed firefighter takes 2 companies to effect his rescue

I can't disagree, but regardless of any rules, they'll be doing this.
Anytime something turns out wrong it'll likely bring on the storm, at least if you know the rules, and don't blatantly disregard them or have policies that give overt or even tacit approval for disregarding them, you will have acted accordingly. It's harder to legally fault someone for their judgement vs. fault them for failure to know or follow the accepted guidelines, laws, or rules.

I live in Chesapeake, VA now, and distance between firehouses are much more than he mile or two I was used to in the northeast. In the rural areas of this city of 215,000, there are places where the first due engine (a tanker) is close to10 min for the run to the scene. Second due is another 10 min. As we have learned, a typical fire doubles every 10 min, so with 3-man companies, the first due cannot make entry legally and must wait for the second due to make entry. That means the fire has grown to four times the size it was when the homeowner called 911. Aside from an exterior knockdown and wait for another company, there's not much OSHA will let you do.
Let's say that when the first due pulls up, the homeowner announces to the officer that her baby is inside. The officer repeats this to his crew and one guy goes VES at a rear window and makes a grab of the baby. What happens to the Officer and FF? They are heros and OSHA keeps its mouth shut.
But let's say the baby dies because the ff was waiting for the 2-out?. OSHA again is probably silent.
If the baby dies and the FF is injured? OSHA hangs everybody
The Motto if the story: Life is not fair, OSHA will probably hang you, and FF's usually listen to their conscience when they calculate Risk Assessment.

BINGO....THATS THE ISSUE. NOT ENOUGH FIREFIGHTERS!
Well Said!!
Since their are exceptions to 2in / 2out, I think the examples you are talking about are mute. If they don't want to get the job done, they will find a reason not to do it. Ever notice the air packs always fail for the same 1 or 2 members.

True, antique, that is the premise: But I will guarantee that OSHA, NIOSH, and the gang that wasn't there at your job will take that one line "true evidence of a trapped occupant" and beat you up with it. They will hit you with "how tenable were conditions, how rapid was the fire escalating and so on. And they will wind up saying things like "Didn't it occur to you that the baby was more or less dead even before the decision to enter was made?"