wraftery

This is and always was specifically addressed in the rules that a known rescue is cause to suspend the 2 out. This was tested or clarification was requested early on when FD's asked for greater latitude in what a "known rescue" was. As I recall the ruling or guidance was pretty clear that their needed to be true evidence of a trapped occupant vs. it's 3 am and there's a car in the driveway.

I live in Chesapeake, VA now, and distance between firehouses are much more than he mile or two I was used to in the northeast. In the rural areas of this city of 215,000, there are places where the first due engine (a tanker) is close to10 min for the run to the scene. Second due is another 10 min. As we have learned, a typical fire doubles every 10 min, so with 3-man companies, the first due cannot make entry legally and must wait for the second due to make entry. That means the fire has grown to four times the size it was when the homeowner called 911. Aside from an exterior knockdown and wait for another company, there's not much OSHA will let you do.
Let's say that when the first due pulls up, the homeowner announces to the officer that her baby is inside. The officer repeats this to his crew and one guy goes VES at a rear window and makes a grab of the baby. What happens to the Officer and FF? They are heros and OSHA keeps its mouth shut.
But let's say the baby dies because the ff was waiting for the 2-out?. OSHA again is probably silent.
If the baby dies and the FF is injured? OSHA hangs everybody
The Motto if the story: Life is not fair, OSHA will probably hang you, and FF's usually listen to their conscience when they calculate Risk Assessment.

I live in Chesapeake, VA now, and distance between firehouses are much more than he mile or two I was used to in the northeast. In the rural areas of this city of 215,000, there are places where the first due engine (a tanker) is close to10 min for the run to the scene. Second due is another 10 min. As we have learned, a typical fire doubles every 10 min, so with 3-man companies, the first due cannot make entry legally and must wait for the second due to make entry. That means the fire has grown to four times the size it was when the homeowner called 911. Aside from an exterior knockdown and wait for another company, there's not much OSHA will let you do.
Let's say that when the first due pulls up, the homeowner announces to the officer that her baby is inside. The officer repeats this to his crew and one guy goes VES at a rear window and makes a grab of the baby. What happens to the Officer and FF? They are heros and OSHA keeps its mouth shut.
But let's say the baby dies because the ff was waiting for the 2-out?. OSHA again is probably silent.
If the baby dies and the FF is injured? OSHA hangs everybody
The Motto if the story: Life is not fair, OSHA will probably hang you, and FF's usually listen to their conscience when they calculate Risk Assessment.

I live in Chesapeake, VA now, and distance between firehouses are much more than he mile or two I was used to in the northeast. In the rural areas of this city of 215,000, there are places where the first due engine (a tanker) is close to10 min for the run to the scene. Second due is another 10 min. As we have learned, a typical fire doubles every 10 min, so with 3-man companies, the first due cannot make entry legally and must wait for the second due to make entry. That means the fire has grown to four times the size it was when the homeowner called 911. Aside from an exterior knockdown and wait for another company, there's not much OSHA will let you do.
Let's say that when the first due pulls up, the homeowner announces to the officer that her baby is inside. The officer repeats this to his crew and one guy goes VES at a rear window and makes a grab of the baby. What happens to the Officer and FF? They are heros and OSHA keeps its mouth shut.
But let's say the baby dies because the ff was waiting for the 2-out?. OSHA again is probably silent.
If the baby dies and the FF is injured? OSHA hangs everybody
The Motto if the story: Life is not fair, OSHA will probably hang you, and FF's usually listen to their conscience when they calculate Risk Assessment.

I live in Chesapeake, VA now, and distance between firehouses are much more than he mile or two I was used to in the northeast. In the rural areas of this city of 215,000, there are places where the first due engine (a tanker) is close to10 min for the run to the scene. Second due is another 10 min. As we have learned, a typical fire doubles every 10 min, so with 3-man companies, the first due cannot make entry legally and must wait for the second due to make entry. That means the fire has grown to four times the size it was when the homeowner called 911. Aside from an exterior knockdown and wait for another company, there's not much OSHA will let you do.
Let's say that when the first due pulls up, the homeowner announces to the officer that her baby is inside. The officer repeats this to his crew and one guy goes VES at a rear window and makes a grab of the baby. What happens to the Officer and FF? They are heros and OSHA keeps its mouth shut.
But let's say the baby dies because the ff was waiting for the 2-out?. OSHA again is probably silent.
If the baby dies and the FF is injured? OSHA hangs everybody
The Motto if the story: Life is not fair, OSHA will probably hang you, and FF's usually listen to their conscience when they calculate Risk Assessment.

And as a result increasing everyones chances of getting injured or killed, and having to deploy your FAST/RIT Team instead of nipping it in the Butt! I believe they're some credibility to this point of view. JMO

I'm not a cop, so I might be in the dark (pun intended) on this subject, so I have a question.
Isn't it really, really hard to sneak up on the bad guy if you are riding around with flashing lights that lets the perp know you are coming?

Not to comment on what is the biggest, etc, but this one applies to Westchester Departments. When the USS (not SS) Constellation burned in the Brooklyn Navy Yard in 1960, SCBA's were just starting to be used by the fire service. Most commonly used at the time were things like OBA's, Chemox, and the like
FDNY had some Scott SCBA's and departments in Westchester had maybe one or two in their inventory.
FDNY put out a request for as many SCBA's as could be mustered. Southern Westchester departments gathered as many as they could and loaded them on Eastchester Rescue 5. I don't know who else was involved, but I know that my father responded to Brooklyn on R-5.
Just a historocal tidbit

Not to comment on what is the biggest, etc, but this one applies to Westchester Departments. When the USS (not SS) Constellation burned in the Brooklyn Navy Yard in 1960, SCBA's were just starting to be used by the fire service. Most commonly used at the time were things like OBA's, Chemox, and the like
FDNY had some Scott SCBA's and departments in Westchester had maybe one or two in their inventory.
FDNY put out a request for as many SCBA's as could be mustered. Southern Westchester departments gathered as many as they could and loaded them on Eastchester Rescue 5. I don't know who else was involved, but I know that my father responded to Brooklyn on R-5.
Just a historocal tidbit

Not to comment on what is the biggest, etc, but this one applies to Westchester Departments. When the USS (not SS) Constellation burned in the Brooklyn Navy Yard in 1960, SCBA's were just starting to be used by the fire service. Most commonly used at the time were things like OBA's, Chemox, and the like
FDNY had some Scott SCBA's and departments in Westchester had maybe one or two in their inventory.
FDNY put out a request for as many SCBA's as could be mustered. Southern Westchester departments gathered as many as they could and loaded them on Eastchester Rescue 5. I don't know who else was involved, but I know that my father responded to Brooklyn on R-5.
Just a historocal tidbit

Not to comment on what is the biggest, etc, but this one applies to Westchester Departments. When the USS (not SS) Constellation burned in the Brooklyn Navy Yard in 1960, SCBA's were just starting to be used by the fire service. Most commonly used at the time were things like OBA's, Chemox, and the like
FDNY had some Scott SCBA's and departments in Westchester had maybe one or two in their inventory.
FDNY put out a request for as many SCBA's as could be mustered. Southern Westchester departments gathered as many as they could and loaded them on Eastchester Rescue 5. I don't know who else was involved, but I know that my father responded to Brooklyn on R-5.
Just a historocal tidbit

Not to comment on what is the biggest, etc, but this one applies to Westchester Departments. When the USS (not SS) Constellation burned in the Brooklyn Navy Yard in 1960, SCBA's were just starting to be used by the fire service. Most commonly used at the time were things like OBA's, Chemox, and the like
FDNY had some Scott SCBA's and departments in Westchester had maybe one or two in their inventory.
FDNY put out a request for as many SCBA's as could be mustered. Southern Westchester departments gathered as many as they could and loaded them on Eastchester Rescue 5. I don't know who else was involved, but I know that my father responded to Brooklyn on R-5.
Just a historocal tidbit

Not to comment on what is the biggest, etc, but this one applies to Westchester Departments. When the USS (not SS) Constellation burned in the Brooklyn Navy Yard in 1960, SCBA's were just starting to be used by the fire service. Most commonly used at the time were things like OBA's, Chemox, and the like
FDNY had some Scott SCBA's and departments in Westchester had maybe one or two in their inventory.
FDNY put out a request for as many SCBA's as could be mustered. Southern Westchester departments gathered as many as they could and loaded them on Eastchester Rescue 5. I don't know who else was involved, but I know that my father responded to Brooklyn on R-5.
Just a historocal tidbit

Not to comment on what is the biggest, etc, but this one applies to Westchester Departments. When the USS (not SS) Constellation burned in the Brooklyn Navy Yard in 1960, SCBA's were just starting to be used by the fire service. Most commonly used at the time were things like OBA's, Chemox, and the like
FDNY had some Scott SCBA's and departments in Westchester had maybe one or two in their inventory.
FDNY put out a request for as many SCBA's as could be mustered. Southern Westchester departments gathered as many as they could and loaded them on Eastchester Rescue 5. I don't know who else was involved, but I know that my father responded to Brooklyn on R-5.
Just a historocal tidbit

I would not agree that there are "too many Officer" positions in Eastchester. There is one Captain and two Lts. working on any given shift. As far as Eastchester being a combination Dept., we have not had an effective volunteer element for over 20 years. In fact I think it's been about 8 years since volunteers were terminated from all fire response. Like many areas in lower Westchester the numbers are not there. Local 916 thinks that residents should know that just because they see a Ladder truck parked in the firehouse, it is not staffed and is out of service.

Thanks, Snotty, I knew somebody out there would bring up Education in The Fire Service. Way back when, before there was a FLIP, or for that matter, any formal education (except FDNY's Academy) there was a number of individuals who demanded education. My father went to the Delehanty Institute in NYC ni the late '50s. Then a new concept opened in Mount Vernon in about 1958. Imagine a course for firefighters taught by Manny Fried, FDNY who wrote the book on strategy and tactics.
The "nob" was then passed to guys like DC Oreste Spallone and Capt Seely Burigo who made Fire Science an Associate Degree course. Our education was now "official." We weren't done six or eight of us persuaded Mercy College to offer a BS Degree based on John Jay's curriculum and in 1977, I was proud to be in the first graduating class with a BS in Fire Science. Meanwhile, Doc Kiernan and a few Chiefs were working on a Career Chiefs Academy for new firefighters, then FLSS for new officers which was Statewide and Required.
Now, instead of taking 25 guys and burning things down (we called it "building a parking lot"), we can now take 150 guys, fighting a fire in a organized manner, and leaving fire buildings bruised but still standing. We also have better accountability, better equipment, and special teams like Hazmat, Tech Rescue, etc.
So what's my point in all of this? I sometimes hear of the new generation pointing fingers at prior generations saying today's way is better. Sure, it's better, but the new generation didn't make it better. It took a lot of work on the part of older generations to develop these innovations and hand them to today's firefighters.
You don't have to tell the old guys that they were doing things screwed up. They know that. That's why they changed things. Now, new generation, it's your turn to "take the nob." If you don't like something
change it, but remember, these things take time.
Oh, by the way, if you happen to run into an old guy, just tell him "thanks."

Thanks, Snotty, I knew somebody out there would bring up Education in The Fire Service. Way back when, before there was a FLIP, or for that matter, any formal education (except FDNY's Academy) there was a number of individuals who demanded education. My father went to the Delehanty Institute in NYC ni the late '50s. Then a new concept opened in Mount Vernon in about 1958. Imagine a course for firefighters taught by Manny Fried, FDNY who wrote the book on strategy and tactics.
The "nob" was then passed to guys like DC Oreste Spallone and Capt Seely Burigo who made Fire Science an Associate Degree course. Our education was now "official." We weren't done six or eight of us persuaded Mercy College to offer a BS Degree based on John Jay's curriculum and in 1977, I was proud to be in the first graduating class with a BS in Fire Science. Meanwhile, Doc Kiernan and a few Chiefs were working on a Career Chiefs Academy for new firefighters, then FLSS for new officers which was Statewide and Required.
Now, instead of taking 25 guys and burning things down (we called it "building a parking lot"), we can now take 150 guys, fighting a fire in a organized manner, and leaving fire buildings bruised but still standing. We also have better accountability, better equipment, and special teams like Hazmat, Tech Rescue, etc.
So what's my point in all of this? I sometimes hear of the new generation pointing fingers at prior generations saying today's way is better. Sure, it's better, but the new generation didn't make it better. It took a lot of work on the part of older generations to develop these innovations and hand them to today's firefighters.
You don't have to tell the old guys that they were doing things screwed up. They know that. That's why they changed things. Now, new generation, it's your turn to "take the nob." If you don't like something
change it, but remember, these things take time.
Oh, by the way, if you happen to run into an old guy, just tell him "thanks."

Thanks, Snotty, I knew somebody out there would bring up Education in The Fire Service. Way back when, before there was a FLIP, or for that matter, any formal education (except FDNY's Academy) there was a number of individuals who demanded education. My father went to the Delehanty Institute in NYC ni the late '50s. Then a new concept opened in Mount Vernon in about 1958. Imagine a course for firefighters taught by Manny Fried, FDNY who wrote the book on strategy and tactics.
The "nob" was then passed to guys like DC Oreste Spallone and Capt Seely Burigo who made Fire Science an Associate Degree course. Our education was now "official." We weren't done six or eight of us persuaded Mercy College to offer a BS Degree based on John Jay's curriculum and in 1977, I was proud to be in the first graduating class with a BS in Fire Science. Meanwhile, Doc Kiernan and a few Chiefs were working on a Career Chiefs Academy for new firefighters, then FLSS for new officers which was Statewide and Required.
Now, instead of taking 25 guys and burning things down (we called it "building a parking lot"), we can now take 150 guys, fighting a fire in a organized manner, and leaving fire buildings bruised but still standing. We also have better accountability, better equipment, and special teams like Hazmat, Tech Rescue, etc.
So what's my point in all of this? I sometimes hear of the new generation pointing fingers at prior generations saying today's way is better. Sure, it's better, but the new generation didn't make it better. It took a lot of work on the part of older generations to develop these innovations and hand them to today's firefighters.
You don't have to tell the old guys that they were doing things screwed up. They know that. That's why they changed things. Now, new generation, it's your turn to "take the nob." If you don't like something
change it, but remember, these things take time.
Oh, by the way, if you happen to run into an old guy, just tell him "thanks."

Thanks, Snotty, I knew somebody out there would bring up Education in The Fire Service. Way back when, before there was a FLIP, or for that matter, any formal education (except FDNY's Academy) there was a number of individuals who demanded education. My father went to the Delehanty Institute in NYC ni the late '50s. Then a new concept opened in Mount Vernon in about 1958. Imagine a course for firefighters taught by Manny Fried, FDNY who wrote the book on strategy and tactics.
The "nob" was then passed to guys like DC Oreste Spallone and Capt Seely Burigo who made Fire Science an Associate Degree course. Our education was now "official." We weren't done six or eight of us persuaded Mercy College to offer a BS Degree based on John Jay's curriculum and in 1977, I was proud to be in the first graduating class with a BS in Fire Science. Meanwhile, Doc Kiernan and a few Chiefs were working on a Career Chiefs Academy for new firefighters, then FLSS for new officers which was Statewide and Required.
Now, instead of taking 25 guys and burning things down (we called it "building a parking lot"), we can now take 150 guys, fighting a fire in a organized manner, and leaving fire buildings bruised but still standing. We also have better accountability, better equipment, and special teams like Hazmat, Tech Rescue, etc.
So what's my point in all of this? I sometimes hear of the new generation pointing fingers at prior generations saying today's way is better. Sure, it's better, but the new generation didn't make it better. It took a lot of work on the part of older generations to develop these innovations and hand them to today's firefighters.
You don't have to tell the old guys that they were doing things screwed up. They know that. That's why they changed things. Now, new generation, it's your turn to "take the nob." If you don't like something
change it, but remember, these things take time.
Oh, by the way, if you happen to run into an old guy, just tell him "thanks."

Myself and a NYFD Deputy Chief representing the Northeast Fire Consortium traveled to the National Fire Academy and requested that they develop a national chief Officers course, They told us that they needed the funding so we went to Nita Lowey and thru her office we were given $ 250,000 to develop the course, we brought the money back to the NFA and as promised they developed the course, Our goal was for a nation wide course taught thru-out the country regionally, To test it out it was offered at the NYS Fire Academy and there were few takers. ( So mandated seemed the answer)
We went to Randalls Island and met with various high ranking FDNY chiefs and they felt it was a good idea and could be taught in NYC using the FLIP school facilities when not in use, However they needed the supporting funding.
Our goal has been reduced to make it part of the mandated NYS Standards as is probie training and Flip school. Career chief candidates would be mandated to go,.while it could be made into optional week-end modules for the volunteers and taught regionally around the state.
So would this not help a new promotee who would be entering into a job he has little preparation for. Would it not increase firefighter safety by having the guy running the job knowing more of what he is doing and what an opportunity to interface with skilled folks and learning your trade as your responsibilities have dramatically increased
Again this concept should be pushed by the various fire organizations and Homeland Security. lots of training around but none dedicated to the guy running the show

Wow! Here we go again.
It sounds like the first arriving officer should now say "Arrived at 100 Main Street I don't see anything but I'll have to investigate further because I can only see sides 1 and 2. Have incoming units reduce their response to non-emergency but they don't have to proceed with caution any more because those words trigger something in their brains and they may get into an accident. OOPS, I said sides1 an 2. For those of you who can't convert that, it's A and B. No signs of fire after my 360, but the neighbors keep pointing to the house across the street. Whoop, there it is."
Why not just leave it as "Nothing Showing"

Wow! Here we go again.
It sounds like the first arriving officer should now say "Arrived at 100 Main Street I don't see anything but I'll have to investigate further because I can only see sides 1 and 2. Have incoming units reduce their response to non-emergency but they don't have to proceed with caution any more because those words trigger something in their brains and they may get into an accident. OOPS, I said sides1 an 2. For those of you who can't convert that, it's A and B. No signs of fire after my 360, but the neighbors keep pointing to the house across the street. Whoop, there it is."
Why not just leave it as "Nothing Showing"

Wow! Here we go again.
It sounds like the first arriving officer should now say "Arrived at 100 Main Street I don't see anything but I'll have to investigate further because I can only see sides 1 and 2. Have incoming units reduce their response to non-emergency but they don't have to proceed with caution any more because those words trigger something in their brains and they may get into an accident. OOPS, I said sides1 an 2. For those of you who can't convert that, it's A and B. No signs of fire after my 360, but the neighbors keep pointing to the house across the street. Whoop, there it is."
Why not just leave it as "Nothing Showing"

Wow! Here we go again.
It sounds like the first arriving officer should now say "Arrived at 100 Main Street I don't see anything but I'll have to investigate further because I can only see sides 1 and 2. Have incoming units reduce their response to non-emergency but they don't have to proceed with caution any more because those words trigger something in their brains and they may get into an accident. OOPS, I said sides1 an 2. For those of you who can't convert that, it's A and B. No signs of fire after my 360, but the neighbors keep pointing to the house across the street. Whoop, there it is."
Why not just leave it as "Nothing Showing"

Wow! Here we go again.
It sounds like the first arriving officer should now say "Arrived at 100 Main Street I don't see anything but I'll have to investigate further because I can only see sides 1 and 2. Have incoming units reduce their response to non-emergency but they don't have to proceed with caution any more because those words trigger something in their brains and they may get into an accident. OOPS, I said sides1 an 2. For those of you who can't convert that, it's A and B. No signs of fire after my 360, but the neighbors keep pointing to the house across the street. Whoop, there it is."
Why not just leave it as "Nothing Showing"