ny10570

The engine, was absolutely close enough and right against the rail with a stick right next to it. Those east side piers are very strong and fully capable of the construction traffic they regularly handle. Much of the FDR, and substantial strictures all around Manhattan are built on these piers. They had all the hard suction off the first engine and one guy looked like he was trying to explain to the chauffeur how to position the rig. The BC arrived and then the suction was dropped and they started hand stretching.
In drafting the distance or number of lengths isn't as much of a problem as the vertical height you have to pull the water. 10 feet is within spec for the new engines and two lengths of suction would have made the water. I know I was behind Eng 80 going to the fire, but I don't remember who got to the pier first.
FDNY was well prepared to keep everyone safe. There were life vests a plenty. R3 and the marine unit had guys ready to go in, but if there had been a life at risk they would have had serious problems. They attempted to use the deck guy but the valve to the gun was opened before the pump was spun up, so by the time the stream reached and was aimed at the fire most of the water was lost in the river.
I'm about as big a cheerleader as there is for FDNY and have benefited greatly from the knowledge of many of their members. This was not their strong suit.

FDNY has a wide variety of specialty resources available to assist with bariatric patients. Nearly 200 units available to assist with the morbidly obese, 150 units carry specialty equipment uniquely suited to moving even larger patients, and for the uniquely massive there are 5 units strategically located throughout the city to assist with the largest patients. Its 200 engine companies available to assist with carry downs, the 150 truck companies with skeds of which several are tower ladders with a 1000 lb tip capacity. Then its the 5 rescue cos with cargo nets, winches, and other toys.
Fernos newer stretchers are rated at 750 extended and over 1,000 in the lowered position. Older ones were 750 or 700 in the lowered position. The overall weight isn't really the problem. Its the dimensions of the patient. They just don't fit. In those cases the stretcher goes in one truck and the patient on the floor. A few years back in the north bronx, after being winched out by Rescue 3 the patient had to be loaded into a hospital box truck with a lift gate. When you get to those super massive patient even the commercial services turn to FDNY for help.
Its not about swallowing pride, its a logistics issue. In one year I personally had 3 separate critical patients over 400lbs. There's no commercial service that can cover the city with enough bariatric units to be everywhere within an acceptable amount of time as often as we have to deal with this problem. There's been talk of fitting certain units with specialty equipment but its never been found to be cost effective.

FDNY has a wide variety of specialty resources available to assist with bariatric patients. Nearly 200 units available to assist with the morbidly obese, 150 units carry specialty equipment uniquely suited to moving even larger patients, and for the uniquely massive there are 5 units strategically located throughout the city to assist with the largest patients. Its 200 engine companies available to assist with carry downs, the 150 truck companies with skeds of which several are tower ladders with a 1000 lb tip capacity. Then its the 5 rescue cos with cargo nets, winches, and other toys.
Fernos newer stretchers are rated at 750 extended and over 1,000 in the lowered position. Older ones were 750 or 700 in the lowered position. The overall weight isn't really the problem. Its the dimensions of the patient. They just don't fit. In those cases the stretcher goes in one truck and the patient on the floor. A few years back in the north bronx, after being winched out by Rescue 3 the patient had to be loaded into a hospital box truck with a lift gate. When you get to those super massive patient even the commercial services turn to FDNY for help.
Its not about swallowing pride, its a logistics issue. In one year I personally had 3 separate critical patients over 400lbs. There's no commercial service that can cover the city with enough bariatric units to be everywhere within an acceptable amount of time as often as we have to deal with this problem. There's been talk of fitting certain units with specialty equipment but its never been found to be cost effective.

keep it up crimecop. I often disagree with your politics, but intelligent passionate discussion is something to be encouraged.
As far as "one nation under god", as someone pointed out it was added in the 50's a wee bit after the founding of this nation. I haven't read the constitution since college, but can you tell me where it mentions god? The declaration only has a vague reference to god that can in no way be linked to anyone's particular god. So, short of a more specific reference who's god are we working with? The Christian or Jewish god who had a real taste for blood back in the day? If we go Muslim, they are extremely liberal with the blade or stone and more than happy to take a life. I know very little about Hindu, Taoism, Buddhism, etc but the ancient Romans and Greeks with their polytheistic ideals had no qualms about taking life. I go atheist. Nothing to hide behind for or against. Death penalty doesn't affect murder rates, costs more than imprisonment, and occasionally kills innocent people.
As for the original thread, funk this guy. Vic didn't chose how they died he shouldn't have a choice. If 5 officers volunteer, then have at sirs. If not then give him the needle. No need to force that upon someone's conscience.

You clearly do not understand what is really involved in firefighting

A well written article:
Less Diversity Is Needed in the Fire Service
Feb 1, 2010 By Kelly B. Jernigan
This commentary is in response to “A Matter of National Security” by Joseph B. Muhammad of the International Association of Black Professional Fire Fighters (IABFF) (Fire Commentary, September 2009). Wait, what? There is such a thing as the IABFF? Isn’t that what the International Association of Fire Fighters (IAFF) is for? The advancement of firefighters? Not black firefighters, not white firefighters, not female firefighters, not Hispanic firefighters, but FIREFIGHTERS? Aren’t we all one in this profession?
After reading the article during lunch, I continued my daily duties at the firehouse, which included training. During training on a new piece of equipment, I ended up at the computer looking up technical specification questions that arose with our hands-on ventures. I did not find what I was looking for, but my search endeavors led me to the forums on the Fire Engineering Web site (www.fireengineering.com) regarding discrimination in the fire service. The topic was not as popular as I originally thought. I was expecting an infinite number of search results written by anyone who had an opinion on racism and diversity. However, very few of these articles were of any relevance to the fire service.
In the forums, I discovered the same type of promotional test controversy in Houston, Texas. I searched for the case and found the article “7 Black Houston Firefighters Sue, Say City Exam Biased.” Similar to the New Haven 20 case, Dennis Thompson, the lawyer for the black firefighters in Houston, argued the tests were unfair. “Firefighters trying to attain the rank of captain and above in the Houston Fire Department must take a 100-question multiple-choice test. Numerous studies show that blacks as a group do less well on high-stakes tests,” Thompson said. He also stated, “Fire departments should use cognitive tests only as a pass-fail benchmark and also should focus on performance exercises and other criteria.” (Carolyn Feibel, Houston Chronicle, February 6, 2009)
Captain Otis Jordan, president of the Houston Black Firefighters Association (HBFA), said, “We don’t do as well on these multiple-choice tests.” He also stated, “I compare fighting a fire, riding an apparatus, to playing football. Your best athlete might not be the straight-A student.” Statements such as these say to me Jordan believes black firefighters are not as intelligent as those of other races. It sounds like these lawyers and black firefighter associations are trying to prove their point by making their own race look bad. The HBFA was not affiliated with the lawsuit.
If I were black, I would be irate at this lawyer or this group for saying I am not smart enough to take the same test as other races. I know if I were involved in a female coalition and it represented me with this argument, I would definitely ask for my dues back.
I agree there are credible accusations and incidents of discrimination, many of which aren’t officially stated or do not make it past the initial grievance procedure. Some of these situations fall into the same category as the New Haven 20 “reverse discrimination” lawsuit, and the individuals involved don’t have the money or the time to challenge city government. They would rather go on and do their jobs as firefighters and hope things are improved by someone high enough wanting to do what is right for the department.
Enough on the discrimination issue. I had to finish some things around the station, eat supper, and do the daily rituals before calling it a “workday” at the firehouse. Still, I couldn’t get this situation out of my mind. After many long hours pondering the subject of the New Haven 20, Houston, and even my own fire department, I have come to this conclusion: We need less diversity in the fire service.
Yes, I said it, less diversity. Let me explain. In my mind there are two types of people in the fire service—there are firefighters and there are people who work for the fire department.
FIREFIGHTERS
Firefighters are people of all races, religions, walks of life—male and female—who live their lives for the fire service. They are the people who dreamed their whole lives about becoming firefighters or have been introduced to the lifestyle and fell in love with it. Firefighters are the ones who take the extra initiative to produce and conduct training, constantly learn new things about the fire service, and make suggestions on how to make the job safer and more efficient. Firefighters are the ones who worry about brotherhood and watching out for their fellow firefighters at all costs. Firefighters are the ones you want beside you when it hits the fan deep inside a building, when you are searching for the small child or elderly person and the smoke, heat, and fire are banked down so low it feels like your body is going to melt. Firefighters will be there with you until the end.
Firefighters, when deciding to advance up the career ladder, will study promotional materials during every spare moment. They prepare for the tests, and most do well. But if they don’t, they blame no one but themselves, knowing that even though they may not be good test takers, they should have prepared more and studied harder. And by doing this, the next time they will do better.
Even as chiefs or company officers, it shows if your heart is in the fire service. Chiefs and company officers whose first love is the fire service are the ones who know the fire department is unlike any other department in the city. The fire department doesn’t bring in as much revenue as the police department or Collections, but it is a necessity.
Fire officers who fall into this category are not afraid to ask for what their people need. They are not afraid to be the rogue avengers, to take on the city managers and convince them what the department needs to be the best and the safest. They are the ones worried about the times when we have to make split-second decisions and knowing they are the right decisions, not about the things that we can go back and look up while sitting behind a desk.
FIRE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEES
On the other hand, you have the people who work for the fire department. These are people who saw the ad in the paper for the fire department agility test and decided maybe working for city government would be better than working at a fast food restaurant. Fire department employees are also people of all races, religions, and walks of life—male and female. These are the employees who arrive at work at the last minute, abuse sick time, and never read or study to better themselves. They are the ones who do just enough to get by. They can usually quote verbatim the policies and procedures because they often use them to their advantage to see what they can get away with doing or not doing.
Officers who are fire department employees are the ones who are more worried about proper supervisory methods and how to do paperwork. While these tasks are extremely important and must be mastered, learning how to operate efficiently and aggressively on the fire scene, in my opinion, is an art that must be learned first and foremost. We have all seen the type—officers who are great at doing administrative duties and paperwork but on the emergency scene are ineffective to the point of being inept. They are the ones who look good in the administration’s eyes because they never want to rock the boat. They never want to go against the grain to offer any new suggestions, even if those suggestions are for life safety. These officers will never stick their necks out and have to be on the defensive or give justification for having to go against policy for doing what it took to save a life.
WHICH ONE ARE YOU?
When you meet people in the fire service, you can talk to them for about 10 minutes and tell if you are talking to firefighters or people who work for the fire department. You can tell if they are genuinely interested in taking the promotion to better themselves along with hopes of bettering the department or if they are just interested in the status and the pay raise that come with the promotion.
To put it in perspective, look around at some of the females in the fire service. I use this analogy because I can’t be labeled as prejudiced if I talk about my own kind, right? Are they firefighters or just females who work in the fire department? When the alarm comes in, do they have that “Let’s go get it, guys” attitude, or do they kind of hang back, hoping someone will take the lead? Are they the drivers who, when the announcement comes over the radio, “Smoke and heavy flames visible,” you hear the engine brake kick in, or are they the ones the officer has to call into the office after returning from the call and tell them, “Slow down, we can’t do anything if we don’t get there”? Do they expect and demand to have separate quarters all their own, or do they strive to be one of the guys? Do they become sensitive when the word “fireman” is used instead of “firefighter,” or is that how they introduce themselves, only to be corrected by the public?
A firefighter who happens to be a female is the one who doesn’t care about special treatment. She expects and demands to be treated equally—not better, equally.
You can talk to Blacks, Hispanics, and all the other races and tell the same. Black and Hispanic firefighters are no different from any other firefighters. They love the job. They are firefighters first and foremost.
It’s the same situation no matter who you are. It may be different in general industry, but as much as we preach diversity, understanding differences, and equal opportunity, it all boils down to one thing in the fire service: Are you a firefighter or just someone who works for the fire department?
THE PERFECT WORLD
Imagine working for a department with all firefighters. Very few disciplinary procedures would be needed. If there were discipline, it would be for a minor infraction such as broken glass at the station from friendly horseplay. Everyone on the fire scene would know what they are supposed to do without being told, and they would know how to do it.
We would have chiefs who are looked up to by everyone because they would be in that position because they deserve it, not because they know how to dress up a resume. They would not be afraid to take on the budget committees and city councils to get the money their firefighters need to be the best fire department in the state instead of thinking it will make them look good if they can turn in extra money at the end of the year.
We would promote based on validated test scores, time in service, work ethics, past appraisals, and coworker recommendations. Promotions would not be based on diversity quotas or a friend taking a good friend to the top. In return, once people realize how promotions work in the department of firefighters, and if they wanted to be promoted, they would step up and produce all year, not just around promotion time. This is the reason we need to join together and express our desires to hire and promote individuals who are not only good employees but who are great firefighters or who are the type of officers we want to work for or strive to be like. Let’s do away with hiring employees and start hiring people who genuinely want to be firefighters.
So next time you’re thinking of becoming a member of an ethnic or gender-specific organization so you can get help with screaming, “I didn’t get promoted because of my color, gender, ethnicity, or religion,” think about what class you represent. Are you a firefighter, or do you just work for the fire department?
Kelly B. Jernigan is a 19-year veteran of the fire service and a captain on Winston-Salem (NC) Fire Department Truck 2. She is a former deputy chief and training officer with the South Lexington (NC) Volunteer Fire Department. Jernigan is a level II fire service and live burn instructor for the North Carolina Fire and Rescue Commission. She is a certified hazardous materials specialist and a rescue technician rope specialist. She was also the fire and rescue coordinator for Davidson County Community College for 10 years and has an associate degree in computer programming.

Back in 2000 when the catholic medical centers merged in the hopes of getting them out from under the archdiocese and its financial troubles, they all merged under into the Saint Vincent's Catholic Medical Centers Network. Then 9/11 happens and they can't manage the mountain of debt they took on. A few years later SVCMCN has to file for bankruptcy. St Clairs (Vinny's North) and some other ancillary facilities went first in 2007 when they emerged from restructuring. The highlight of the return featured a major expansion of Vinnys that included a several hundred unit residential complex that was going to be built and managed by a 3rd party. In 2009 after several community driven revisions the plans were approved and expected to be completed by 2012. Shortly after approval the Greenwich Village Preservation something or other lead by Susan Sarandon and Tim Robbins sued everyone involved and effectively killed the proposed tower. With the loss of this income there was no way to cover their growing debt. $300 million of new debt in 3 years is a big deal. NYS floated them several loans to cover payroll while they looked for a buyer, but Continuum had no intention of maintaining the ER and no one else wants the debt. They have 300 million thats due now. Plus however many millions more that still hasn't come due. So any bail out would have to have 300 million liquid right now and probably another few hundred million in the wings to give them time to find a new revenue stream. On the upside the Greenwich Village Preservation something or other is now protesting the closing of the hospital who's fate they sealed.
As far as why NYs hospitals are consolidating, one story I read blamed it on the New York Hospital and Presbyterian Hospital merger. To stay competitive a medical center or hospital group has to provide everything. The old days of stabilize and transfer to a city hospital for the uninsured are gone because of all of the partnerships and referrals linking hospitals. For example your pacemaker being implanted at NYU by your NYU doc may actually happen in Bellevue's Cath Lab. Your Residents working at Jacobi or North Central are also working at Monty and Einstein. So now everyone is sharing the load of the poorly insured or uninsured while the pool of insured is more scattered than ever. I'm sure some of it also has to do with changes in populations.

That park is incredibly difficult to access. Some areas not even accessible by ATV. I can think of one small area in the middle of the park you may be able hoist a patient out, but the rest of the park is heavily wooded. The park has several miles of fairly technical mountain biking trails and its been sheer luck that this hasn't been an issue sooner. Graham Hills has also been the site of a few brush fires, but none in the last 10 to 15 years. Even if you know the park front to back, its can be hard to describe your location and even harder to find someone based on a description of their location. Can 60 or state police obtain GPS coordinates from 911 calls? Then can anyone do something with those coordinates when they get them? How long does it take to get the county ATVs activated? This was lucky, and the individual wasn't too badly injured. However a punctured lung, lacerated organ, or impalement could kill someone in 2 hrs. These questions don't just apply to Graham Hills. This area is littered with isolated hiking and cycling trails.

That park is incredibly difficult to access. Some areas not even accessible by ATV. I can think of one small area in the middle of the park you may be able hoist a patient out, but the rest of the park is heavily wooded. The park has several miles of fairly technical mountain biking trails and its been sheer luck that this hasn't been an issue sooner. Graham Hills has also been the site of a few brush fires, but none in the last 10 to 15 years. Even if you know the park front to back, its can be hard to describe your location and even harder to find someone based on a description of their location. Can 60 or state police obtain GPS coordinates from 911 calls? Then can anyone do something with those coordinates when they get them? How long does it take to get the county ATVs activated? This was lucky, and the individual wasn't too badly injured. However a punctured lung, lacerated organ, or impalement could kill someone in 2 hrs. These questions don't just apply to Graham Hills. This area is littered with isolated hiking and cycling trails.

No we never used it that way however we did place victims on backboards and load them in the rear of the rescue while waiting for transport ambulances during multi victim car accidents.

It was supposedly going to be part of the changes this April, but was dropped from the final version. I've heard 2 stories. First, Remac has questions about when the cooling will begin, before or after rosc. The second is FDNY stalled it awaiting the delivery of the next round of vehicles which will have the saline coolers.

A system in North Carolina, Wake County was an early adapter and has published a lot research. It has since spread to agencies across the country. There are a variety of methods of induction used including cooling blankets, ice packs, and cold saline infusions. FDNY is awaiting the next round of ambulances before they begin cooling patients in the field.
Benefits of hypothermia for spinal injuries is still hypothetical and not well researched. In post arrest patients cooling has shown a small increase in survival rates, but a substantial bump in survival to discharge and patients remaining neurologically intact.
With cooling, you're not necessarily going to save more lives, but you're going to give people a chance at going back to a normal life.
Thanks Goose for the correction

Be extremely careful with the CMCs. I haven't used one in 2 years, but at the time the two loops of rope were separated by a pin. On 2 occasions during testing two separate devices locked up at the window sill when one of the ropes crossed over the pin. The first locked up after the member exited the window, and the second locked as the member was trying extend his slack resulting in him being caught with his head still up in the window when he tried to bail. Turns out without tension its not hard to push the rope across the pin during packing. I can only assume a similar situation can occur while being jostled in the pouch or during deployment.
While the Petzel can be opened into a free fall, the double action of opening the lever is not conducive to panic operation and a person in panic tends to either clutch or flail. Both of which release the descender and stop the fall. When deployed properly you will come to rest below the window sill and ideally out of the way with time to calmly descend at your leisure. As with any device, practice makes perfect. Use needs be second nature and reflexive. For complex skills some physical therapy research points to 50 to 60 repetitions per year with no more than 6 months between repetitions.

yes, you can't stop for a mai tai and snacks, but you can quickly and calmly get out of there. By the end of the required 10 evolutions guys of all comfort levels were able to rapidly descend and stop within a few feet of the ground. Younger guys, people with more experience on it, or with a climbing background were able to free fall and stop right above the ground. I've also watched members lower themselves along with an "unconscious" ff on an adjacent hook. The system is both fast and precise.

The quick escape, made by the same company is a better device. The guillotine destroys a rope due to many friction points and sharp bends and it requires several slides to get adjusted right. Not a concern with your personal device and rope, but a definite training problem. Allegedly the difference between dry and soaked bunker gear is enough to lock the device and prevent it from releasing. The quick escape is essentially the same thing without the brake plate. Friction is applied by clenching the system.

Something to keep in mind was the point mentioned by M'Ave. Devices such as the Exo, F4 and a bunch of others will hold you in place while you are hanging out the window. Pull on the lever without a brake hand on the rope and you will drop really fast. Anyone looking into some sort of system should consider a device with a double brake. It will hold you in place until you pull the lever like the others but if you panic and pull it to much and you will once again stop. This was pointed out to me by members of my job that are currently evaluating different systems and devices. The CMC Escape Artist comes in a double brake model and appears to be one they are liking the most so far. Just something else to consider in your quest for the right system.

Lets also not forget the response of the career depts to Pleasantville when the rear wall detached from a building on Manville Rd. The career depts have repeatedly shown they are fully capable of playing nice in the sandbox. Its time we focus on getting the job done right rather than getting everyone involved with the job.

The younger gerneration may recall this as a Simpsons episode as well....during the Halloween specials they do every year.....they spoofed the Twilight Zone episode.

They're all clowns, regardless of party. My theory of Dems and Reps is this: D= Depression and R=Recession. They're all self-serving people who pander to us - the voters - so that they can get elected, and then screw us the second they're seated in office. All I can say is that the true concept of having a government by and for the people of this great country has become muddied and obscured over the last 50 or so years because of the actions of these "career politicians."
And as far as being fined for breaking the law, that's fine by me (no pun intended), so long as the law is constitutional; sadly, in this case, it appears, to me, at least, that the clause regarding fines does not fall in line with the tenets of the US Constitution.

Umm, Congrats
Good luck officer Bobby. Look forward to seeing you back out there.

Antique, you nailed it. ER's already treat all these people, so we're already footing the bill. Much of the projected savings comes from getting these people into a doctors care before they require some sort of life saving intervention in the ER. People will still abuse the system, go to ERs for nonsense, and not take care of themselves. Those people we paid for before and we will continue to pay for them. The goal of this legislation is to give the people who want to see a doctor before they need a doctor the means to do so.

In February 2000 2 Houston firefighters died while fighting a fire in a McDonalds. The NIOSH report highlights much of what has already been addressed here, but is still worth reading.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face200013.html

Don't the Police Departments have enough to do without doing extrications. I don't think a single Canadian Police force does this, it is all handled by the fire service.

Wether its through CME or refresher you will only get as much as you want to out of it. You can find plenty of hands on, obscure topic, or just CMEs that cover areas you think you're weak. Refresher, you're just covering the same info you covered 3 years ago. You can read the EMT textbook and do that. As for the nulk of your hands on training, that has to be done and maintained in house. The state stuff is just an intro. I'm still waiting for the MVA where I can immobilize my patient working right in front of them while they calmly tell me which toe I'm touching. Something as simple as fracture immobilization they teach you plenty about mid shaft, but what about a broken wrist. More than one new EMT has tried to place that cravat across the wrist like we do for forearm fractures. Bad idea and the patient will make that very clear. How about your traction splints? I'm unusual in that I did 3 in 2 years. Even then, each time I missed a step that I had to go back and correct. Each time it went on right and in a timely manner, but it could have been smoother. I know plenty of people who haven't touched one since their last refresher.
If you're really the self starter you say you are then you should be fighting to keep PVAC accepting CMEs. If you're doing more than the minimum and pushing your knowledge wile maintaining fundamentals then the refresher is just going to be a waste of your time.

BTW- just for the recored, there was a public meeting to discuss the purchase of this truck and how it would be financed at the fire house last month. It was posted on the community channel and in the paper. Nobody showed up.