Bailout Systems: What Are You Using?

[robert benz 344]

Ok group, what bailout system if any, is your dept using. Likes / dislikes so far, would you change if YOU had the say. Thanks for any input.

[JimmyPFD 11]

Hey Cap,

We were issued the RIT Systems RIT belt with bailout system attached too. All the parts are on that belt: rope bag, descending device, with a carabineer instead of Crosby hook. It also has a medium/large (ladder) carabineer.

The department equipped us pretty quickly compared to other departments with a lot more resources. The dept. deserves unbendable praise for this. The following isn't sour grapes; just an honest critique. I'm glad we have it and appreciate how relatively quickly they equipped and trained us.

It wasn't designed with easy donning of PPE in mind. It is a little extra to deal with when suiting up and is somewhat cumbersome.

I went to RIT's website to post a pic of what we have and they may have learned a couple of things over the past year or so. They are now marketing it with class II or III type harness and show a FF with the rope bag in his pocket as opposed to on the belt with everything else, (which we were instructed to leave as is, as that is how it was designed to be deployed.)

The system wasn't designed to donned with our Morning Prides and appears to have been designed to put on after any turnouts. Which you might expect for a ladder type belt

It's a functional, easy system to deploy, but too much going on and around the waist and anoying when donning.

Edit: I had to correct myself in calling it a "ladder" belt. They also market a ladder belt with added padding around back and extra straps to hold tools/equipment.

Edited March 30, 2010 by JimmyPFD

[mymack1 38]

Sleepy Hollow is using the RIT Bailout system. Nothing but positive things to say about it.

[JFLYNN 681]

Ok group, what bailout system if any, is your dept using. Likes / dislikes so far, would you change if YOU had the say. Thanks for any input.

Good question Bob. I would also be interested to know, for the departments which have been issued bailout ropes, what type and how much training has been done?

[efermann 28]

Good question Bob. I would also be interested to know, for the departments which have been issued bailout ropes, what type and how much training has been done?

Chief -

Wanted to send you a PM...but your not accepting any more. Maybe your box is full.

- Eric

[GFD505 0]

we use the petzel exo system at greenville.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Hey Cap,

We were issued the RIT Systems RIT belt with bailout system attached too. All the parts are on that belt: rope bag, descending device, with a carabineer instead of Crosby hook. It also has a medium/large (ladder) carabineer.

The department equipped us pretty quickly compared to other departments with a lot more resources. The dept. deserves unbendable praise for this. The following isn't sour grapes; just an honest critique. I'm glad we have it and appreciate how relatively quickly they equipped and trained us.

It wasn't designed with easy donning of PPE in mind. It is a little extra to deal with when suiting up and is somewhat cumbersome.

I went to RIT's website to post a pic of what we have and they may have learned a couple of things over the past year or so. They are now marketing it with class II or III type harness and show a FF with the rope bag in his pocket as opposed to on the belt with everything else, (which we were instructed to leave as is, as that is how it was designed to be deployed.)

The system wasn't designed to donned with our Morning Prides and appears to have been designed to put on after any turnouts. Which you might expect for a ladder type belt

It's a functional, easy system to deploy, but too much going on and around the waist and anoying when donning.

Being I use the same system I'm going to chime in as well. The system mentioned above I do not, and the consensus is most of my colleagues also do not like it, nor think it is practical.

For one, it is a truckman's belt type design, which is where 1 gripe came in as we can no longer where this device and our Gemtor's which our pants had loops for.

Secondly, the device is extremely stiff, and it does not have a "rope" bag as it does not utilize rope but a flat tubular nomex webbing, which was a question when the law came out and these hit on the market as the law stated "rope" in its wording. Being it is stiff it is extremely difficult to deploy through the device. Because it does not have a crosby hook and just a carabiner, it is nearly impossible to brace a tool as an anchor and pull on the device to get to the window or enough to get out the window without the tool falling out of place. The way they train you to deploy the device is flawed, the training being delivered is flawed, as the user anchors into a eye bolt into the wall where we practice. When I find buildings with eye bolts in every wall near a window I will no longer have to worry about this issue. When deploying the device with a tool you have to maintain the webbing pulling on the tool to keep it seated, when I did this while simulating the use of a tool I was prohibited from doing so by the instructor. I'm extremely concerned that this has created a bigger safety issue then it solved.

Thirdly, I do not believe that the device we have is truly a hands free system. The descenders RIT makes with a squeeze handle, (those they actually did take input from and changed the set up) seems to be truly hands free as it has a brake. What is the brake on the system I have other then your hand placement to sort of feed webbing into the device. I've seen several, and that's more then I should in my opinion, members rapidly descend toward the ground with the descender I have and that JimmyPFD does as well.

JimmyPFD: RIT didn't improve on the device you have with the ones you've seen, those are different packages and a neighboring department of yours was getting the system you speak of with the harness and pocket bag at the same time as you got yours, and they had some trial systems to see if they liked them well before that.

In the end quite honestly I would have been happy keeping (and I still carry it because of the discontent with the system I have) just my 40' of 3/8" rope with my figure 8 and large carabiner that sat very nicely in the flap storage system morning pride has in their coats.

This might ruffle some feathers...but so be it. I hear more complaints about the system I was issued then positives and nothing I've posted isn't the truth. Only thing I can say is that while JimmyPFD's department "acted quickly" in getting a system, that is part of the problem why where I'm at we got stuck with the system we got. It seemed more like a rush to get them, with no input from members on what systems were out there, and not even a trial by multiple people of size, experience etc. in its use. And to be honest...why weren't departments taking more action to protect its people before this, some FD's were spotty with issue ropes to those who completed survival, so some "acting quickly" is more a tongue in cheek comment.

[robert benz 344]

thanks this is what i am looking for input. Anybody using a lumbar bag yet?

is anybody using the STERLING F4 ?

[JFLYNN 681]

Chief -

Wanted to send you a PM...but your not accepting any more. Maybe your box is full.

- Eric

I just emptied it

[M' Ave 1,466]

We use a system designed partly in house and in conjunction with Petzl. I don't know if this exact system is available commercially, but I would think that some variation is out there. It works in conjunction with the Gemtor harness that is worn over our bunker pants.

Seems like a good system as far as it's being simple, straightforward and easily deployed. It uses a hook, which I've seen placed in MANY different locations in and around a window, or used as a tie off point when wrapped around a heat riser or radiator (Personally, I think the odds of having time to tie off before using this last resort system, are poor). The hook works great as long as it is held in place until constant tension is put on it, meaning, you are out the window and it is holding your whole weight. You have to hold it with the trailing hand as you roll out of the window, but with repetition, this becomes second nature. The descender device pays out quite nicely, as long as you packed it correctly with enough tail to get it past the window sill. Once out and hanging, you grab the EXO descender and it will lower you as you pull the lever. It takes some getting used to as pulling too hard will cause you to drop VERY fast.

Currently, the whole device and 50 feet of rope are stored in a pouch on our right hip. It's not the greatest thing. It's about 8 more pounds and it's location makes you a few inches wider.....not good. As I understand it, an alternative location and bag design is working it's way through R&D, but who knows how long that will take. Talk is that it will be located somewhere around or just below the lumbar region. Not exactly sure how that's going to work with the mask, but we'll see.

One thing that I cannot stress enough with this and (I assume) every system is; you need to train on this device at great length. I know that in the academy, a proby will slide from low platforms, hight platforms and do it repetitiously. I believe that this system is very good and reasonably safe, but it is definitely a last resort and you need to know how to use it when it's getting so hot that your best option is to go out the window. Do it blind, do it while timed and under pressure. This is not the kind of thing you talk about and slide once or twice. You should go through several scenarios with the device and have slid more times than you can count before you consider yourself comfortable. Maintenance and care is another issue and you need to keep the rope clean and you need to repack and inspect this device regularly. Think about it like this, this is mountain climbing equipment. Do you think anyone climbs a rock face without checking their gear? We do not use our own system for drilling (we use a spare), but we do repack it 4 times a year as a company. As an individual, you should check it at the start of every tour, or whenever you can (drill periods and such for volunteers).

Edited March 30, 2010 by M' Ave

[fjp326 42]

Something to keep in mind was the point mentioned by M'Ave. Devices such as the Exo, F4 and a bunch of others will hold you in place while you are hanging out the window. Pull on the lever without a brake hand on the rope and you will drop really fast. Anyone looking into some sort of system should consider a device with a double brake. It will hold you in place until you pull the lever like the others but if you panic and pull it to much and you will once again stop. This was pointed out to me by members of my job that are currently evaluating different systems and devices. The CMC Escape Artist comes in a double brake model and appears to be one they are liking the most so far. Just something else to consider in your quest for the right system.

[ex-commish 490]

What are both the initial training requirements/recommendations as well as for on-going training requirements for the bail out system?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

What are both the initial training requirements/recommendations as well as for on-going training requirements for the bail out system?

One of the first things is your department should have criteria for what an "approved instructor" is and then choose those within that pool to be labeled as such by the AHJ.

For members I recommend that each have the FF Survival curriculum as it reinforces other self rescue skills other then bailout and reinforces calling the mayday. From there they should get a good lecture on the system, components, construction, limitiations and operations and then be able to bailout until they show a level of proficiency meaning they are building muscle memory and planting the operation needs into the old brain.

As far as on going training, personally I believe it should be every 6 months. But realistically it should be at a minimum annually. Any type of skill you learn, your brain starts to lose the neuron pathways you built when you learned how to do it around 6 months, so you begin to lose proficiency aka speed and the correct way to do it safely. Within a year you can lose the ability to do it correctly at all. This isn't my thing but discussed in varying books on learning and tactics with military/law enforcement.

[ny10570 745]

Something to keep in mind was the point mentioned by M'Ave. Devices such as the Exo, F4 and a bunch of others will hold you in place while you are hanging out the window. Pull on the lever without a brake hand on the rope and you will drop really fast. Anyone looking into some sort of system should consider a device with a double brake. It will hold you in place until you pull the lever like the others but if you panic and pull it to much and you will once again stop. This was pointed out to me by members of my job that are currently evaluating different systems and devices. The CMC Escape Artist comes in a double brake model and appears to be one they are liking the most so far. Just something else to consider in your quest for the right system.

Be extremely careful with the CMCs. I haven't used one in 2 years, but at the time the two loops of rope were separated by a pin. On 2 occasions during testing two separate devices locked up at the window sill when one of the ropes crossed over the pin. The first locked up after the member exited the window, and the second locked as the member was trying extend his slack resulting in him being caught with his head still up in the window when he tried to bail. Turns out without tension its not hard to push the rope across the pin during packing. I can only assume a similar situation can occur while being jostled in the pouch or during deployment.

While the Petzel can be opened into a free fall, the double action of opening the lever is not conducive to panic operation and a person in panic tends to either clutch or flail. Both of which release the descender and stop the fall. When deployed properly you will come to rest below the window sill and ideally out of the way with time to calmly descend at your leisure. As with any device, practice makes perfect. Use needs be second nature and reflexive. For complex skills some physical therapy research points to 50 to 60 repetitions per year with no more than 6 months between repetitions.

Edited March 30, 2010 by ny10570

[Bnechis 3,961]

When deployed properly you will come to rest below the window sill and ideally out of the way with time to calmly descend at your leisure.

While it maybe "at your leisure"....those members who are behind you waiting there turn may not feel the same and if you take too long they will jump onto you.

[ny10570 745]

yes, you can't stop for a mai tai and snacks, but you can quickly and calmly get out of there. By the end of the required 10 evolutions guys of all comfort levels were able to rapidly descend and stop within a few feet of the ground. Younger guys, people with more experience on it, or with a climbing background were able to free fall and stop right above the ground. I've also watched members lower themselves along with an "unconscious" ff on an adjacent hook. The system is both fast and precise.

[16fire5 693]

Anybody using the CMI Guillotine (bad name for something used with rope)? Looks real simple to me.

http://www.rocknrescue.com/acatalog/CMI-Guillotine.html

[ny10570 745]

The quick escape, made by the same company is a better device. The guillotine destroys a rope due to many friction points and sharp bends and it requires several slides to get adjusted right. Not a concern with your personal device and rope, but a definite training problem. Allegedly the difference between dry and soaked bunker gear is enough to lock the device and prevent it from releasing. The quick escape is essentially the same thing without the brake plate. Friction is applied by clenching the system.

[joeya7 1]

In Port Chester we are using the RIT Rescue system. This system includes 3/8 tubular kevlar webbing with Crosby, carabiner, F.I.R.E AL decsender, and a RIT class II harness. We've been using this system for over a year now. I went to the AAA demo when we were looking in to systems. Have to say I wasn't impressed from the beginning. When the guys from RIT were doing the demo / sales pitch they were wearing plan cloth no PPE taking their time sitting up on the window sill. Then I asked if we could see the system deployed in real time but that didn't happen. When then had the chance to look at the system. The decsenders that were there weren't working right. They said that the first generation decsenders had too much power coating on the inside and caused to much friction for the webbing to pass. Why bring something that doesn't work right to a demo? Needless to say our dept went with this system. We still have issues with the decsenders. Dirt and other particles from the webbing get stuck inside of the decsender and causes it not to perform properly. The carabiner at the end gets in the way when doing window sill anchors with the Crosby hook. The harness I'm also not a fan of compared to the Gemtor. With the Gemtor you have a class II harness with ladder belt without having to purchase any extra parts. The lack of any snaps to hold the RIT harness to one side is also a pain. I think we all have many good opinions as to which our ideal system would be. Lets just remember these systems are in place for our safety and the safety of our brothers and sisters. So train regular on what system you have and become proficient so if that day comes you'll be able to tell us how the system performed.

"Live to train Train to live"

[fjp326 42]

yes, you can't stop for a mai tai and snacks, but you can quickly and calmly get out of there. By the end of the required 10 evolutions guys of all comfort levels were able to rapidly descend and stop within a few feet of the ground. Younger guys, people with more experience on it, or with a climbing background were able to free fall and stop right above the ground. I've also watched members lower themselves along with an "unconscious" ff on an adjacent hook. The system is both fast and precise.

I'm willing to bet that anyone who free fell and stopped right above the ground now speaks a couple of octaves higher than before.....Seriously though I do believe that if someone is burning and still has the presence of mind to deploy an escape system is not going to do it calmly and is likely to pull the handle for all it's worth. I'm not bashing the Exo, or any other device, just passing on a point that I found to be pertinent to this topic. None of these systems are perfect but there is a lot more to choose from than just a few years back.

Edited March 31, 2010 by fjp326

[ajsbear 11]

petzel exo

[M' Ave 1,466]

I'm willing to bet that anyone who free fell and stopped right above the ground now speaks a couple of octaves higher than before.....Seriously though I do believe that if someone is burning and still has the presence of mind to deploy an escape system is not going to do it calmly and is likely to pull the handle for all it's worth. I'm not bashing the Exo, or any other device, just passing on a point that I found to be pertinent to this topic. None of these systems are perfect but there is a lot more to choose from than just a few years back.

This is true and a secondary panic avoidance-type break is a good idea. I'd never heard of that before.

This device has been deployed several times and was first used (member actually out the window on rope) about three years ago. He was a seasoned guy, 25 years give or take, and he was able to use it successfully. He did burn his hands in the process. 2 things to take away from this:

One, obviously he found it easier and necessary to remove his gloves. Although we train with our gloves on, in reality, you just might pullem' off. The oven mitts they issue are poor at best. More importantly, if his hands were burned at the height of the window sill, how hot do you think it was to chase him out the window.

Considering that this device has clearly saved lives, it is something that everyone who will be in the building should have. You should be extremely proficient in it's use and mindful of the condition you keep it in. You owe it to yourself, your family and (very sadly) all of the brothers who's lives might have been saved by this device and who's passing created the urgency to provide these devices to the rest of us.

Train regularly as ALS said. I'd say 6 months is a good time frame. Mark it on the drill calender, "practice bail-out and repack personal systems".

Edited March 31, 2010 by M' Ave

[Guest partyrock]

Having used the exo extensively on and off the job I'm one of those guys that has gotten pretty good with it. I actually use a repurposed one to self belay when climbing to see how many descents I can put it through. You can descend as fast as you want and stop where you want without the testicular trauma.

[Guest Firediver]

For complex skills some physical therapy research points to 50 to 60 repetitions per year with no more than 6 months between repetitions.

NY10570 you are on the right path with this but to really put it into perspective it take 300-500 reps to lay down a new motor path and 3,000 to 5,000 reps to unwind a motor function that already exists.You will always have every motor pattern stored just in case the body needs it again (example: back pain, the body will learn how to bend over without pain). As mentioned before, this is not something that you do a few times in training and think you have it down. Now add in the force that drives you to think bailing out is a better option( Not many of us have been to this point, I myself included) and the body will take the motor pattern that fits the situation at that time. As for the time, everyone will be different and only you can decide how proficient you really are. Very Good Topic! Keep em comin'

Oh, I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

[Res1cueLT 20]

We are currently in the process of picking a system. We have tested many, and visited with departments to see what they were using. Bottom line is nothing is perfect so you have to assign priorities to your criteria. The first thing we did was to establish criteria, then we had several manufactures come in and demo there product with us. From there we were able to narrow the field to 4 devices. Further testing was done on those to narrow the field even further until there were only 2 left.

While the doulble brake device seems to be the best choice at first glance it did not do well in the remote anchor testing.

As far as the rope getting caught in the Escape artist: I am being told that there has not been a case when an aramid fiber rope was being used, if someone has conflicting info please let me know.

There is a new design of the Escape artist which we will be testing this week.

The XO had the same issue initially. Before the U-bolt was installed they had many jups on that device, until one day someane got the rope caught. That incident was why the u-bolt was developed.

There must be a fromal process with written evauations, criteria, goals etc. Remeber once you establish your criteria it is highly unlikely you will find a device that fits them all so you will be forced to prioritize. If there were such a device everyone would buy it.

Once you have gotten to the stage where you have picked the :

Device

Rope

Length of rope

anchor type

Bag

How to intergrate it into your gear.

Then you will have the task of developing a traing program, which will include course material, initial training, and a refresher traing schedule.

Also to be considered is the fact that this is a rapidly growing market with frequent new developments. This is not to say you should wait for something better, more that there should be constant research for further developments.

[JFLYNN 681]

We are currently in the process of picking a system. We have tested many, and visited with departments to see what they were using. Bottom line is nothing is perfect so you have to assign priorities to your criteria. The first thing we did was to establish criteria, then we had several manufactures come in and demo there product with us. From there we were able to narrow the field to 4 devices. Further testing was done on those to narrow the field even further until there were only 2 left.

While the doulble brake device seems to be the best choice at first glance it did not do well in the remote anchor testing.

As far as the rope getting caught in the Escape artist: I am being told that there has not been a case when an aramid fiber rope was being used, if someone has conflicting info please let me know.

There is a new design of the Escape artist which we will be testing this week.

The XO had the same issue initially. Before the U-bolt was installed they had many jups on that device, until one day someane got the rope caught. That incident was why the u-bolt was developed.

There must be a fromal process with written evauations, criteria, goals etc. Remeber once you establish your criteria it is highly unlikely you will find a device that fits them all so you will be forced to prioritize. If there were such a device everyone would buy it.

Once you have gotten to the stage where you have picked the :

Device

Rope

Length of rope

anchor type

Bag

How to intergrate it into your gear.

Then you will have the task of developing a traing program, which will include course material, initial training, and a refresher traing schedule.

Also to be considered is the fact that this is a rapidly growing market with frequent new developments. This is not to say you should wait for something better, more that there should be constant research for further developments.

[/quot

Mike,

Very good post...fairly comprehensive, but you forgot to tell them that when testing or training, all vehicles should be parked out of the drop zone and chin straps should be securely fastened.

[Res1cueLT 20]

We are currently in the process of picking a system. We have tested many, and visited with departments to see what they were using. Bottom line is nothing is perfect so you have to assign priorities to your criteria. The first thing we did was to establish criteria, then we had several manufactures come in and demo there product with us. From there we were able to narrow the field to 4 devices. Further testing was done on those to narrow the field even further until there were only 2 left.

While the doulble brake device seems to be the best choice at first glance it did not do well in the remote anchor testing.

As far as the rope getting caught in the Escape artist: I am being told that there has not been a case when an aramid fiber rope was being used, if someone has conflicting info please let me know.

There is a new design of the Escape artist which we will be testing this week.

The XO had the same issue initially. Before the U-bolt was installed they had many jups on that device, until one day someane got the rope caught. That incident was why the u-bolt was developed.

There must be a fromal process with written evauations, criteria, goals etc. Remeber once you establish your criteria it is highly unlikely you will find a device that fits them all so you will be forced to prioritize. If there were such a device everyone would buy it.

Once you have gotten to the stage where you have picked the :

Device

Rope

Length of rope

anchor type

Bag

How to intergrate it into your gear.

Then you will have the task of developing a traing program, which will include course material, initial training, and a refresher traing schedule.

Also to be considered is the fact that this is a rapidly growing market with frequent new developments. This is not to say you should wait for something better, more that there should be constant research for further developments.

[/quot

Mike,

Very good post...fairly comprehensive, but you forgot to tell them that when testing or training, all vehicles should be parked out of the drop zone and chin straps should be securely fastened.

Thanks John, I forgot to add that you will never make all your members happy, so pick something that everyone can use not just your rope guys.

[robert benz 344]

We are currently in the process of picking a system. We have tested many, and visited with departments to see what they were using. Bottom line is nothing is perfect so you have to assign priorities to your criteria. The first thing we did was to establish criteria, then we had several manufactures come in and demo there product with us. From there we were able to narrow the field to 4 devices. Further testing was done on those to narrow the field even further until there were only 2 left.

While the doulble brake device seems to be the best choice at first glance it did not do well in the remote anchor testing.

As far as the rope getting caught in the Escape artist: I am being told that there has not been a case when an aramid fiber rope was being used, if someone has conflicting info please let me know.

There is a new design of the Escape artist which we will be testing this week.

The XO had the same issue initially. Before the U-bolt was installed they had many jups on that device, until one day someane got the rope caught. That incident was why the u-bolt was developed.

There must be a fromal process with written evauations, criteria, goals etc. Remeber once you establish your criteria it is highly unlikely you will find a device that fits them all so you will be forced to prioritize. If there were such a device everyone would buy it.

Once you have gotten to the stage where you have picked the :

Device

Rope

Length of rope

anchor type

Bag

How to intergrate it into your gear.

Then you will have the task of developing a traing program, which will include course material, initial training, and a refresher traing schedule.

Also to be considered is the fact that this is a rapidly growing market with frequent new developments. This is not to say you should wait for something better, more that there should be constant research for further developments.

Thanks for your input Mike, Let me know how you make out deciding what type of bag you are going to get

[rayrider 94]

Mike, please have your little buddy change your signature to R1. LOL.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I had the opportunity to see the Sterling F4 used last night and I have to say out of all of them...on a personal level that is the one I liked. Ease of operation, lightweight and truly hands free. If I could only sell my RIT I was issued...I'd sell it for a $1