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A "political s*** storm"...really?
The "political s*** storm" comes when the public's expectation is that in there hour of need, the fire department shows up with enough trained personnel to save "my child", "my parent", "my wife". So far every department listed (except 1) routinly sends less personnel than every standard calls for.
The political push is to make sure that every response has enough personnel, to actually protect the public and every responder. As a chief officer you should not only understand this, but be promoting it.
This is not about career, combo or volunteer, how many depts and how many chiefs still thinks its ok to send one man apparatus to a structure fire?
I know of 9 (of the 59 in Westchester) that not only think its acceptable, but its actual policy. There are others that think 2 firefighters per rig is ok.
Fair enough, so sticking to the topic.....I know more than 1 department in Westchester thats run card says 2 engines, 1 ladder & the chiefs car (because a chief would be a person). So thats the apparatus count.
Now you made it clear that you do not want to hear this because it ruins the thread, but its the single biggest issue for Westchesters fire service. Those 2 engines, 1 ladder & the chiefs car were dispatched and retoned for any available driver/crew or rolled with 1 or 2 firefighters.
ISO has sent its new staffing policy to the State Insurance Commissioner. Their new position is that since state law requires 6 responders (2in/2out, MPO & IC) to enter a burning structure. If you can not meet that as a rock bottom minimum, then they plan on rerating your dept to a 9. This will affect dozens of Westchester departments in the next year.

Thank you for being openminded enough to reconsider your original position after being presented with a differing opinion. Your manly ability to not take these things personally and to acknowedge that others have correctly pointed out a flaw in your original reasoning is admirable and unfortunately, all too rare in these parts.
These are life and death issues to those of us who have dedicated our lives to the Fire Service profession. A young man such as yourself with passion and an open mind will likely go far and be a credit to our vocation.
Please be careful who you listen to in regard to these matters and don't fall for the typical false accusations of volunteer bashing, which is not at all what this is all about.
It is bashing though of course. It is bashing of misleading information, misplaced priorities, and failed leaders.

This is an interesting thread. IMO it really does a lot to demonstrate the mindset held by many members of the Fire Service in this region which is such a disservice to those we are sworn to protect and to our own fellow Firefighters....with the exception of helicoppers question regarding manpower (and he is a cop, not a Firefighter), and one other question and answer in regard to White Plains manpower, the whole thread so far is all about how many apparatus respond, with no mention of personnel.
Guys, Firefighters put out fires...Firefighters who are adequately trained and certified for interior firefighting and physically capable. A certain amount and type of apparatus, of course, is necessary, however, listing how many apparatus respond to structure fires is not only worthless in terms of assessing a department's capabilities, it is misleading.

AFA are not always False Alarms. This is a big mistake in termonology.
A false Alarm is when there is no legit reason for the alarm. Smoke from cooking (burn popcorn in microwave), steam from the shower, dust from workers, candles, etc. The system did what it was designed to do, so its not a false alarm, its an accidental or unintentional alarm.
It is important that the public understands this so they do not ignor alarms in the future.

I thought it was just a bunch of Truckies who are afraid of heights.

So what is this guy trying to do; save wear and tear on a piece of fire apparatus? Is this the crucial cost savings measure? Okay, let's send the ambulance guys/gals in a jeep Wrangler, heck they only needed jeeps in MASH.
Let's send the patrolman out on a Vespa. They come in beautiful shades of blue and you can get ten of them for the price of a patrol car.
"I'm in pursuit of a Mustang...Vespa 1 is in pursuit"...
Let's send the garbage pick-up guys out in....a pick-up. They can just pile it on top.
For recycling, just have the DPW guys dump out the contents of the recycle box on the sidewalk in front of the home, presto you've recycled it.
Carry a PWE in the suburban though. Besides all this other lunacy I've listed, remember if you can't get the fire knocked down with a PWE, you might as well just let the building burn....no chance in saving it. We have to SAVE that rig, you never know how serious a fire we could get in 2014.

328 Union Avenue, New Rochelle, NY - vehicle fire in the driveway of a mult-dwelling. Fire was encroaching on the structure until NRFD knocked it down successfully.

Couple of good things to look at in these photos.
Car fires become pretty routine and this one presented itself with some unusual concerns. The most obvious, of course, is the exposure issue. It's inevitable that you push the fire a bit as you put the hose line on it. Another is that you'd like to attack a care fire at an angle and that wasn't really possible here. Lastly, looks like the truck did a nice job clearing some shingles and what not from the side of the house. Good overhaul.
Nice job by NRFD.

What sad news this morning. Worcester, Mass. IAFF Local 1009. We all bear witness once again to them getting hit hard. And news of our Brother lost this morning from Mount Vernon. December 8, 2011. Suddenly another infamous date. While we all commiserate here on the site, waiting for news.....a name....mornings like this one always bring you back full circle to other similar mornings.....
Today feels like....The Father's Day Fire.
Black Sunday.
Manlius, New York.
It's hard to make sense out of these days. Why?
It reminds me that the career fire service in America is actually not all that huge; and how we are all entwined together with a culture created and passed down through generations of firemen.
I cannot help but to think of the outpouring of respect that will be shown for these Brothers. I cannot help but to think of the absolute devastation that has occurred to two separate families this December morning. The trying days...months...years now put before families who only last evening had holiday plans in the works. Christmas forever changed for a lot of people in an instant.
In 2002 I traveled to Colorado Springs to pay respects at the IAFF National Memorial, hosted by IAFF Local 5, Colorado Springs Firefighters. The day before the Remembrance, I had a rented Toyota Four Runner, and decided to drive to the top of Pikes Peak. The Service the next day would be right in front of this mountain, where the Memorial is located.
When I reached the top after a couple of hours drive, standing there in the parking lot of the lodge I recognized the President of Local 1009. "Hey Worcester" I called out.
"Hey, how's it going?" the President of 1009 replied. "You want a beer?"
And so we shared a brew at 14,000 feet and spoke quietly amoungst ourselves.
The irony was not lost on me that there were six Brothers from 1009 standing there.
And now two more names will be chiseled into the face of that black wall out in Colorado Springs. In the shadow of Pikes Peak, surrounded by beauty, yet carved from tragedy.
Once again, Worcester Brothers will make the solemn journey, and this time our Brothers from Mount Vernon will accompany them.
So Rest now...jobs well done, the Lord has called you home.

If you are a member of L273 you should know the answer to that. If you are not a member then this is not the forum to explain our contractual work schedule.

Another well written article that will fall on the deaf ears of the few. The average citizen, of all races and backgrounds, is not in favor of this ruling. Let merit prevail! I'm so sick of the whining and complaining when things aren't just handed to you in this city. Last week I was sickened watching the NY City Council hearing on the snow storm. Councilmembers wanted to know why Public Housing wasn't adequately plowed and shoveled...uh, to the residents: You get what you (don't)pay for. Other council members wanted to know why people in the "Welfare to Work" program weren't getting paid by sanitation when they showed up to shovel. Uh....'cause you're already getting public assistance and shoveling a little snow for it isn't the worst thing ever. Along the same lines, I love how the FDNY should mirror the population that it serves, like it has some obligation to offer city residents jobs. What? I always thought it was to hire the best from the candidate pool and provide the best possible service. Where would I get a crazy idea like that!?
Guess what!? Life isn't fair. You get an equal shot, a fair written exam. Actually, it's more than fair, it's a veritable bunt! However, someone loses! That's that. In fact, most people lose and you can't please everyone. End of story.
The Judge is still holding onto the final decision, impeding the city's ability to appeal. They will as soon as they have the ability.
***Crack*** There goes my soap box! Thanks for listening, rant over.

Exactly!This is what drives me nuts!!! This is a job that you can not just flip a switch and be "into" it for a tour then forget about it until you come back. There is nobody that good or all knowing to do this with other lives in your hands. There are other jobs out there that will fit this type of thinking, DEFINITELY not this job. NOBODY is owed this job! You WANT it!!, you study, get physically fit and take the test. Just getting by is going to get a brother hurt/injured etc. because you are not INTO my career just here for the benefits and a Civil Service job. This type of ish really burns me and all i'm trying to do is get BACK to work. Rant over. Stay Low
I used the term "my career" as the Fire Service as a whole (career, Vol,etc)

I actually like the Ben2 I had breifly...better than the 1010 or 1044
That said, i still wear my 17 year old N5a.

yeah so they could cut staff even more no way.

Date: 11/19/11
Time: 01:52
Location: 132 Berrian Rd
Frequency:
Units Operating: E23 E22 E21 L13 TL11* Cars 2301 2302
Weather Conditions: Cold and brisk
Description Of Incident: Automatic residential fire alarm. E 23 L13 first due on the box reporting smoke in the house requesting another engine. E21 assigned. E 23 transmittiting the 10-75 for fire in the basement. * means L12 should have been on the run but was closed due to city closing truck companies and TL 11 pick up the box instead.
Reporters: The "Derff"
Writer:

As I understand it, the city will drop the minimum manning, which I believe now is "27" down to "24". I believe that Ladder 12 will NOT be manned if members of the on duty shift are off for various reasons. This leaving the City of New Rochelle, referred to as "The New Roc City" with only two ladder companies.
The politicians over the years have given away millions of dollars for "Pet Pipe Dream" projects. They did this to enhance their own political future. Now the cities are crying they have no money. It's the same story everywhere. Fire Depts didn't break these cities, "Politicans Did" trying to buy votes for their own policical future.
From what I know of New Rochelle, it is a city with a high fire load. An older northeast city where its firefighters face the dangers of older buildings, exposures, and today even high rise buildings. So when tragity strikes, the people of New Rochelle can Thank their local politicians for letting them down.

Fir Na Tine (MEN of Fire)
I was actually going to write a defense of your post; I thought for sure you were being sarcastic. It's quite obvious you were not, you are dead serious. I think your post summarizes the mindset of what has taken hold in many of the locals in the fire service; hoorah for me and mine, screw everybody else. Did you ever think; what if the roles were reversed and it was your job on the cutting block? Wouldn't you hope that another job would consider taking on an experienced firefighter, with all the required NYS training and certification in the world? The Brothers who might be losing their jobs in New Rochelle did nothing wrong to be losing those positions. I would hope if I were in that position, some chief somewhere would still understand that Brotherhood extends beyond the ridiculous boundaries which still separate the smaller jobs in south Westchester.
As far as padding your pension goes, how much extra would you expect to be making without all of your slots filled on your job? Whatever happened to this thing we call "The Brotherhood"? Where everybody sacrifices just a little for the greater good? I'm glad I'm retired now, if your mindset is prevalent on the job.
And you of all people who always rail against "lowering standards". What exactly do you think you are advocating for in this post? To me, you have stated just about the lowest standard a "Brother" could stoop too.
"Men of fire" Fir Na tine....not "Boys of Greed."

If it comes down to six Brothers being laid off, I would hope the surrounding municipalities would do the right thing and hire these guys as transfers. I remember this happened with another city and places like Greenville stepped up. What say ye, Eastchester, Scarsdale, Hartsdale, Fairview, etc?

Sorry Brother, we remembered them in October at our annual memorial service. This really sucks for our job and those members involved. When are the people going to get it!!!! It does not cost that much for police and fire protection. The school budget is 64%, the county budget is 18% and the city budget is 18%. Your taxes do not go to public saftey as much as they go to the schools. please stop lumping us into the same category. This is BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What cities "up your way" are similar in size and demographics to New Rochelle?
Are those cities adequately manned? If so, what are you basing your opinion on?
I would hope that as you offer your opinion on what constitutes proper manning for a profession you apparently know little about in a city you seem to know even less about that there are real Firefighters who are likely going to be losing their livelihood there and the rest will be left to pick up the slack.

Barry,I commented on FB that the cuts never hit the political appointees that suck at the public trough and get better $$$ than Fire Fighters and other city workers and never have to worry about getting cut!!!

I'm going to keep this really short, There's much more at stake. I would like to add, that in reality, in many areas local government is failing miserably in their primary responsibility of providing adequate public safety.
Local government is ultimately responsible for funding and staffing EMS, fire and police protection, and they're playing a game of Russian roulette with peoples property and lives by not meeting one of their very few obligations: to provide adequate public safety.
To be sure, roads, schools, sanitation, are also major priorities, but getting re-elected seems more important to some of those we have entrusted with our lives.

Thanks again for the reply Charlie. But I honestly don't see this as an argument, rather just a discussion. BNechis's response above is a good one, that gets to the root of the topic.
I've added what I could in suggesting bringing in a consultant, because that fresh set of eyes on operations many times is very helpful for people like the village board members you mentioned.
Having run solo on engines, trucks and a rescue earlier in my career, I know what that feels like to a firefighter (career or volunteer). It's overwhelming, stressful, dangerous. If there is a way to address not having that happen in Rye Brook, Port Chester, and the other places the Captain mentioned, it's worth exploring the options. A consultant could give the elected officials some options to consider maybe they hadn't heard before or thought of themselves, and maybe act upon.
I mean this sincerely when I say no firefighter, career or volunteer should have to run solo on a rig anymore in 2011, and there are ways to figure out how to solve that issue.

No it is not.
The issue is do you have enough responders to cover calls and meet the minimum standards. PCFD, RFD, and HFD's staffing has always been some career ff's (to drive) and a majority of the response being volunteers. RBFD is in a similar situation, because its relying on PCFD to respond with enough personnel. If enough volunteers are showing up, then no issue, if not, you are putting the career member, the public and the few volunteers who are onscene at extreme risk.
How few Firefighters can you get away with? What is the minimum number that should be on every response?

While the Consolidation Study languishes somewhere, Rye Brook and Port Chester were not included in it anyway.
The case against one firefighter apparatus staffing was addressed on my job some years ago. We had five engines, two trucks, and a heavy rescue, all with the original staffing from the 1920's; one firefighter per rig. The volunteer response had declined for various reasons, particularly during daytime working hours. The system, as it was designed; career firefighters responding with the apparatus, and volunteers responding in their POVs no longer worked.
The department (and I know I've explained this a few times before, but I think it's appropriate to mention it again here) commissioned a consultant, who did address the unacceptable fact of firefighters alone on rigs.
The resulting report became a template that the department did follow through on. The resulting changes reduced the total number of apparatus, and eliminated a dispatcher position, but the end product was literally the beginning of the end of solo staffed rigs.
The department now runs with two firefighters per rig. It is far from adequate, it is far from ideal, but it is 100 percent better than it was. This is simple math, one firefighter plus one firefighter=100 percent increase in staffing.
If problems exist in RBFD/PCFD (and one firefighter per rig staffing IS a problem irregardless of how passionately some department members would defend the system) I would humbly recommend Rye Brook and Port Chester consider funding a consultant's report. They can be done for a reasonable cost, they bring in an outside professional opinion, who not only takes into consideration the abilities of the municipalities involved to fund the end product, but more importantly for firefighters, they can offer a better option than the existing system. I say better, certainly not best, because if this was the case, our consultant's report would have resulted in at least three firefighters and an officer per rig. But because a consultant will take into account the municipality's ability and willingness to fund improvements, they stay neutral in the discussion, and are not dismissed by the taxpayers as one-sided.
Along with hundreds of other Westchester career firefighters, led by Rye firefighter Bruce Kerr (Rest in Peace Brother) I walked the picket lines up in Rye Brook when they were going the Rural Metro route, a route that ultimately failed as we all knew it would. The resulting creation of a Rye Brook Fire Department staffed with career firefighters was a small step toward the solution that ultimately the two communities need to address. They still need each other, they should get together and fund a study, and the communities will need an intensive public education effort, to build the needed support for the politicians to have the will to act on the behalf of their constituents safety. Politicians also have a moral obligation to address the safety needs of their public employees.
The message is simple; no more one man fire trucks. Getting there isn't nearly as simple, but it can be and has been done.