CFFD117

Its a place of business. The particular business is to protect and serve the people of a town and or city. Do these folks drink at their place of paid employment? I'm betting not, so why is this any different? What amazes me about volunteers, (not all of them) is the fact that they will argue to the death that they are of the same quality and held to the same professional standards as Career firemen yet they go around pulling crap like this. Its pathetic and it truly does separate the REAL firemen from the boys.
Drinking is no place for the firehouse.

Just wanted to say a few words about the wake yesterday and the funeral today. All comments in this post are my own thoughts and comments and do not reflect my professional agencies/departments.
I wanted to thank the FDNY community and all other departments that were involved with the ceremonies today and yesterday. I thought both the wake and funeral service were very well organized and went very smoothly. Both had excellent turnouts. It was a great send of for Lenny and was great to see how many people came out to celebrate his legacy and to support his family during this very hard time. Having known Lenny for several years, I would expect nothing else of his friends and the people that knew him and worked with him.
I was amazed at how welcoming and friendly the FDNY community was. We invited them into the PFD HQ after the wake yesterday and had a "little" reception for the family and friends. I can not even begin to count how many FDNY members came up to PFD members and introduced themselves and thanked them for letting the FDNY into their house and treating them like family. Everyone was just so happy to be surrounded by people that also knew and enjoyed knowing Lenny. Today in NYC they returned the favor. It was truly an incredible display of the amazing sense of brotherhood and sisterhood that makes what we do so special.
RIP Lenny. You will be greatly missed but more important your legacy will be greatly honored.

Sonny, you really need to lighten up! This wasn't an annual inspection or an emergency response. It was a parade and they were having fun, as they should. I thought it was funny and I knew none of the back story or the relationship between Mill Plains and Brewster (thanks FitzJr for sharing).
I think the "skit" as fitz described it is a pleasant distraction from the line of trucks and the rigid formations of uniforms. So people may not have known the inner workings of the relationship between the departments but they had to laugh at the folly and the departure from the norm.
Personally, I'm glad someone was having fun! "LIKE" to the boys (and girls) from Mill Plains.

Does this version come with a “Police Pursuit or Interceptor” package? Four cylinders instead of the normal 3?

For everyone out there in case you haven't figured it out, Chief Raftery is one of the most credible posters in regard to firefighting who has ever posted on this site. I wish you would post more Chief!

As most here know I work with a bunch of Brits, all of whom are great guys and good FFs. They and most of western Europe having been using the "progressive" techniques touched on in the article, such as exterior cooling before entering and late stage ventilation for years. Works well enough for them, in many cases though this is due to building construction, not just these progressive tactics. While most buildings in Europe may be old they are brick, stone and cement and more often than not compartmentalized...wood is rarely used except some interior work and roofs, not as the main structural element...and this is a significant factor. Time after time during training sessions the tactics I advocate and in fact know work (those practiced regularly in our area) have been derided or should I say "corrected". In most cases what is commonplace around here is described in one of two ways..."archiac" and my favorite, "suicidal". As I often remind my esteemed colleagues from across the pond, the simple fact is there are many considerations that must go into making tactical decisions, including when and where to ventilate...ours is not a job where one size always fits all.
I'm sure some valuable and more importantly useful information will come out of these experiments, but probably not very much more so than has already been "discovered". My bet is that since this research will now have the FDNY attached to it, this wll enable us to evolve our tactics with a little less resisitance. But the key word here is evolve, not radically change them...although as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow I would bet some will use this to "justify" just that approach.
Stay Safe

The other issue is you rarely see triage (aside from drills) done properly e.g assess, tag and move on. You see many units arrive at incidents that are technically MCIs and getting tunnel vision. Stopping at the first patient and treating, working up the traumatic arrest on the MVA with 5 plus patients and only one unit on scene, etc. Tags are great but they need to be used with the philosophy behind their use: assess, identify, classify, prioritize then treat.Stopping mid stream at the first black tag to start CPR defeats the triage system unless you have multiple units on scene and the red and yellow tags will not suffer for it.

First off if you knew it was the 79th street boat BASIN and not access you would have probably been better off. Secondly, the moment you called 911 you made your first mistake. The only number to call EVER for an emergency and not a crime is 718-999-2222 You will get an individual with a mastery of the English language and who actually gives a $hit about your well being or the person you are calling about. I called 911 once for a PDAA I hung up with the woman on the phone asked me where 233rd St was. Now I just call the real dispatchers and let them forward it over. I have no idea who a guy in the NYPD can listen to these informants I mean dispatchers. If you ever saw these wildebeasts at metrotech you would think you were outside a Social Services Building.

I always love that activists want to stop the use of Tasers and othe Conducted Electrical Devices (CED). What are the alternatives? Here is a link to US Department of Justice study of less than lethal alternatives from 2011: https://www.ncjrs.go.../nij/232215.pdf
1. Pepper Spray. It does not work on all individuals, and is not recommended for use on the very young, the very old, and pregnant women. When it was first deployed in the late 80's and early 90's there was much of the same outcry against pepper spray. It can cause difficulty breathing, set off asthma, and cause burns to skin and eyes. You have to be aware of the direction of wind, and the probability that it will effect others in the area. It is also not recommended to be used at less than three feet from a subject, as the pressure it is sprayed at can cut eye tissues. I once used pepper spray while in a fist fight with a subject, I sprayed him, myself, my partner, and several onlookers. I initially sprayed the subject, who wiped it off his face, and proceeded to try and wrestle with me. In the end, he went to jail lumped up, and I burned both my corneas.
2. Baton. Either a straight wood/polycarbonate baton, side handle baton (PR24) or collapsible ASP type batons. All have the side effects. Bruising, broken bones, and possibly permanent disability or death. Even when justified, it does not look pretty. It is close in fighting, as most batons are only 24 inches in length. It is possible to aim for one part of the body, and hit another area due to movement by both the officer and the perpetrator. The last time I used my baton, I was attempting to restrain an individual who was actively fighting with another officer, and bit one officer who was trying to hold him down. When I put him into an arm bar as trained, he fought harder, and walked away with a broken collar bone for his efforts.
My department only allows supervisors (Sergeants and above) to carry a Taser on Patrol, which can be a hindrance in my opinion. I have been in numerous encounters where if I had a Taser it would have shortened the resistance, and most likely reduced injuries to both the perpetrator, other officers, and myself. Usually the supervisor arrives on scene after everything is done, and the person is in handcuffs.
I am all for more training. In 2009, Taser recommended its products not be aimed at the chest area. http://www.policeone...suspects-chest/. Sometimes it happens, either by poor aim, or the perpetrator moved.

Let these activists get in a fight with some meth head on the side of the highway with the nearest help 30 minutes away!

This thread is fantastic.
First, everyone overreacts over what now appears to be a miscommunication.
Then, the proposed solutions basically include harassing the toll-takers, because let's be real, we all know they are the ones making the policies. (Let's not do something drastic like make legitimate contact with the powers that be and explain why this is a bad policy.)
Then if that doesn't work, we advocate just blowing through the toll plazas. No big deal there, so a DOT worker or two gets blasted. No harm, no foul. Or maybe just destroy some DOT equipment.
Just brilliant. Let's keep these good ideas coming!

A yacht like that could easily entertain 27, many times charter yachts will be chartered for parties, where the number of guests on board exceed the amount of berths available. Reading the article, it does seem really strange that the Coast Guard would arrive to find no debris or life rafts in the water. Vessels such as these are also required by law to carry an EPIRB, which would enable to CG to pinpoint the vessel in distress' location and to have 200% capacity for life rafts/ life boats. to not be able to find anything, considering how much of the items on deck (cushions, teak furniture etc) would float, seems rather abnormal. Pretty mean joke if its not real or a training exercise

Not only did the restaurant NOT pick up my bill, they gave me the VICTIMS bill!!
OK kidding, but no they did not get the tab. Based on my consumption Hx, it could have been a bank breaker for them.
I have forgotten how to quote previous posts, but that guy a few posts back is right- the on -duty LVAC medic got the obstruction out with the magills after he looked, I looked and he looked again. That occured after we got pulses back with CPR and back blows.
My guess is that dieing kind of relaxed his airway which allowed our CPR and attempts at BVM'ing to get in enough air to quicken and strengthen his heart rate and contraction.
Being a medic, I am always skeptical of pre-arrival "saves", so I am even skeptical of mine. I know I felt for a pulse and found none, and there was ZERO respiratory effort. With CPR we got a pulse quite fast, and during the "analyze" of the AED no shock was indicated, so in retrospect, I bet he had cardiac activity, but due to hypoxia it was slow and weak and we just did not/could not detect it. If you are in doubt of a pulse, then you gotta get to work, and that is what we did. I have seen CPR stopped in many cases of "hey I gotta pulse!" only to find out it was, well, wishful thinking. Was this a true arrest save? not sure. Was it a life save, yea, I think it was because if no action was taken during the response, the pt would have progressed further down the road to death, in all likelyhood past the point of no return. Since he had stopped breathing before I even got to him, the Grim Reaper must have gotten a decent head start on EMS. But in the end, we prevailed. I'd name the on duty guy, but I don't know how he'd feel about it. He gets a lot of credit too.

A yacht like that could easily entertain 27, many times charter yachts will be chartered for parties, where the number of guests on board exceed the amount of berths available. Reading the article, it does seem really strange that the Coast Guard would arrive to find no debris or life rafts in the water. Vessels such as these are also required by law to carry an EPIRB, which would enable to CG to pinpoint the vessel in distress' location and to have 200% capacity for life rafts/ life boats. to not be able to find anything, considering how much of the items on deck (cushions, teak furniture etc) would float, seems rather abnormal. Pretty mean joke if its not real or a training exercise

I cannot believe that FDNY has not brought up the points I made in their arguements before the courts. I do believe, on the other hand, that Judge Garufis ignored these arguements along with things like FDNY's large expenditure on minority recruitment.
Hizzhonor may be clueless, a power seeker, a firefighter hater (they are out there, you know), or read Chief Crokers speech out of context (The part about the Fireman's job is considered by some to be a lowly one.)
Think what you may about Dennis Leary, but he said "Firefighters don't pull up to a building and ask 'What floors are the white people on?'"
FDNY has has a black Chief of Dept, Augustus Beekman. NYC has had a black Mayor. We have a black president. Isn't it tme the civil rights acts and affirmitive action come to an end?
If FDNY was really discriminatory, the whole population would be up in arms, not just the Vulcans.

What would the discussion be like if he had EMTbravo up on it?

Totally thought this was going in a different direction....

I am more of sharks with laser beams on their heads kinda person lol

One thing I've noticed as of late; something I thought had finally been passed over as being antiquated, is the disagreeing that is still occurring between the mighty forces of Emergency Services Unit and Special Operations Command.
Disagreement expressed on these pages could to be a good thing, as it might foster better understanding between those agencies who likely cooperate 98 percent of the time without incident, but disagree occasionally, and it comes off like a competition on those rare events.
But thinking about it, is this situation any different than what occurs in a majority of places, between emergency personnel?
Isn't it true that a contingent of volunteer firefighters still look upon their career counterparts with some sort of disdain?
Aren't there a few career firefighters, who cannot see any gray areas in the fire service and therefore conclude that ALL volunteer services are undermanned shams? (and how many of them were formerly volunteers with the exact opposite views)
Aren't there some cops who will always view the fire department showing up as just another inconvenient blocking of their highway?
Aren't there obstructionists in every branch of emergency services who would rather die or watch as constituents continue to die, than give up one inch of their authority or admit that changes need to be made to operations?
The imperfections of the systems in place in the greater New York area, serve to demoralize ALL who work within the systems. The ability to adapt to simple operational changes, that in many cases wouldn't cost an additional tax-dollar, or donation-buck, and many times would save money overall, are continually looked at with disdain. With inaction. With resistance.
Each individual however can still have an impact on positive change; if they would direct their energies toward the positive improvements and shun the negative energy. None of us alone will change the emergency services world during our careers. Let me repeat that; none of us alone.....
But collectively, smaller positive contributions all add up in the end toward building momentum for inevitable and productive change.
Most of the positive changes that have come about have been those individual contributions. Think about Chief Haligan. He invented a tool. Think about the guy/s gal/s who thought up 2in 2out. The person who invented exhaust extraction systems. Sure, some were collective improvements made by groups of people tasked with inventing that improvement.
But Chief Haligan went back into the shop somewhere at a firehouse and pulled out a length of hardened steel and started thinking about it. Coupled with his experience at defeating doors and locks. So you keep it simple, like he did and the sky is the limit. It's about an idea, more than what you can do in a steel shop. Your contribution might be ideas, gathered on paper; ideas about how to consolidate a bunch of smaller departments into one larger one, that would become a vast improvement in delivery of fire services. Captain Nechis's ideas, analytic thinking is his haligan tool. Whether it get built or not is still in question. Time however will prove he and his counterparts were years ahead of their time with their ideas.
Ideas are empowerment. What can you do individually to improve emergency services? Think about it, you might just be on to something big.

Everybodygoes, I'm not looking to get into an arguement with you over what in the end is complete nonsense, but I am up for an intelligent rational discussion, so I'll respond to your post.
"The FDNY has been doing rescues since 1865, ESU was started what in the 20's?"
In 1865 the hodge podge of volunteer fire companies were superceded by the Metropolitan Fire Department, which in its beginning roots only covered parts of what is now Manhattan and later on Brooklyn. The FDNY officially became the FDNY in 1870. It wasn't until 1928 that the Bronx was pretty much completely served by the paid Fire Department, followed by Queens in 1929, and Staten Island in 1937. The Fire Departments main function was Fire Suppression. I have tried to research a bit more on the history of the FDNY and their involvement in rescue work, but have come up short in factual verifiable information. If you know where I can locate this, I'd be interested to read it. I know that Rescue 1 was officially formed in 1915, and Rescue 2 was officially formed in 1925. According to the unofficial website for Rescue 1, the formation of the rescue companies was borne out of several fires (Equitable Building, 1912, a Subway Train fire in 1915) wthere firefighters were encountered with difficult forcible entries, and realized the need for a company that carried specialized equipment to operate at these fire scenes. As time went on, Rescue began to get more involved in the Technical Rescue arena, but their original responsibility was to operate at fire scenes, and perform rescues of firefighters and civilians at structural fire scenes (taken from an unofficial Rescue 2 website). This was a time when the FDNY had their hands full with structural fires. Rescue 1 was first equipped with it's first Hurst Tool in 1972. The NYPD was officially formed in 1854 (20 years before the Metropolitan Fire Dept.). ESU was formed in 1925 from a pool of police officers who possessed special skills (electricians, carpenters, riggers, etc.) with the sole purpose of performing rescue assignments. The Unit was also known as the departments Firearms Battalion, and years later the Unit was coined the Mobile Security Unit, where it was tasked with responding to both rescues and tactical situations. Their role as a tactical unit expanded in the 1970's after the Munich Olympics massacre. Not sure when ESU equipped their vehicles with hurst tools. In a book written about the history of FDNY Rescue 1, it was written that members of the NYPD ESU actually helped train the first members of Rescue 1 (I'm not making claims to the accuracy of the material, just relaying what was written. I'll re-post the title of the book when I dig it up). ESU was formed to serve the cop on patrol. At a time when NYC was burning down and the FDNY had their hands full with structural fires, the members of ESU were a resource for the patrol cop to handle these rescue jobs. Before the formation of FDNY Rescue, members of the FDNY performed rescues with the limited equipment and training they had. Before the formation of NYPD ESU, members of the NYPD performed rescues with the limited equipment and training they had. So to say one was doing it before the other... not sure how much weight that holds.
Westchester County PD has hurst tools before the overwhelming majority of FD's, especially in the northern part of Westchester County, and were the only one's equipped to perform vehicle extrications on certain parts of the County highways for many years.
"You tell me who is better trained at doing it."
I don't know, who is? What discipline are we talking about? ESU members go through a Rope Rescue Technician course provided by a nationally recognized training organization that meets NFPA 1670 and 1006 requirements, and go for continual training multiiple times a year, whether it is self-driven Squad level training, mandated in-house training, or training provided by outside training organizations. ESU members go through an AVET course similar to the Fire Service, and through self-motivation and discipline will often visit local junk yards to train on scrap and derelict vehicles during the course of their normal tour to remain competent on their skills. They go through the EPA Haz Mat Technician course, the FEMA Structural Collapse Technician course, all meet and exceed the NFPA requirements. All ESU members are at a minimum EMT's with several Paramedics and one or two Physician Assistants in the ranks. Unless things have changed, all FDNY members are CFR's (with some EMT's/medics thrown in there). Since we are technically better trained emergency medical responders (as in trained to a higher standard), should ESU take over patient care activities when we arrive on scene?
"You show up with 2 we show up with 6"
You are correct, and sometimes 2 is all you need... more is not always better. I agree that on jobs that are manpower intensive (structural collapses, trench rescues) rolling 6 deep is a huge benefit, and necessary for the operation at hand, and something that ESU really can't compete with. But look at the majority of confirmed pin jobs.. they're simple door jobs that are mitigated in minutes. Quite often I'll see 2 guys working and 4 standing around doing nothing. Even on a simple, minor MVA with injuries on the highway when you have 2 and 2 rolling in with 4 (I think) guys on each piece of apparatus. That's 16 guys either standing around or jockeying for position for one totally stable patient. It's not a knock or a low-blow, it's simple observation. On a more technical or complicated job, we should all be able to work together, and I think the concept of working together is more prevalent in the outer-boroughs. I haven't been around that long, but overall I've had no real major issues when it comes to working together. What it comes down to more often then not is not the patch on the sleeve, but the mentaility of the individual.
As I mentioned before, Westchester County PD handled extrications on the County Highways for many, many years before a lot of the local VFD's had hurst tools, and they got the job done in most instances without 6 people showing up.
"But, don't tell me what happened in Brooklyn was a rare occurence, cause it isnt."
I didn't say it was a rare occurence. What I am saying it's that it's not a one-sided problem. I'm not trying to bash anyone or any agency, but I'll give you 2 examples. Queens, 2 ESU members tethered and outfitted in gumby suits are effecting an ice rescue. After making contact with the victims, members of the FDNY show-up and 5 or 6 run out onto the ice in bunker gear. No tethers, no protective suits, just bunker gear. Can you guess what happens? Ice breaks, and all of them fall through the ice into the freezing cold water and now they all have to be rescued. All of this was caught on video by a news chopper. Don't believe me, I'll post the video here. How is that scenario any different then the one you portrayed about ESU guys trying to be the "it guys", and endangering their own safety and the safety of the other responders who now have to get them out of the water? Or a more recent scenario. Water rescue, male in the water up along the seawall. ESU arrives, one member suits up in a drysuit, and while being tethered, enters the water and grabs the person in the water. While this is going on, FDNY members drop a ladder in the water, and insist on putting one of their own in the water, eventhough the person is "in-custody" for lack of a better term. Now the ESU member has to wait for the FDNY member to descend the ladder so him and the victim can climb the ladder out of the water. The FDNY member entered the water, and came right back up the ladder. What purpose did that serve other then to be the "it guy"? If we want to get technical, according to NYC CIMS, NYPD is the lead agency for all water incidents. What it comes down to is the A-type personality that the majority of us possess and everyone wants to be that "it guy", unfortunately sometimes people's judgements get clouded and irrational decisions are made on both sides, not just one. That's the only point I'm trying to make.
"Guys in Truck 4 are all aces, never had a single problem with them and they work with us well, and of course you cant paint with a broad brush, but it does happen and nothing is done to mediate it. "
Like I said before, I think as you get into the outer-boroughs, there's less drama overall. I don't have an answer as to why nothing is done to mediate it.
"Wonder why it doesnt happen in Yonkers?"
I don't know, maybe someone from Yonkers can chime in. Maybe it's a better working relationship. Maybe Yonkers ESU wants little to do with rescue work. Maybe we just don't hear about the problems. Maybe the current workload leads to few occasions where there's a potential for a problem. I honestly don't know.

Scroll up and rub Messier's forehead for good luck!

No matter what anyone says, the IC made a COMMAND DECISION, and utilized whatever resources he had available at the time. What would be the difference between setting up a master stream and leaving it flowing unattended, versus putting those fine gentlemen in charge of a hoseline (aside from the fact that a master stream shouldn't be left unattended)?
I applaud the IC recognizing that help was needed and seeking the assistance, and even more, thumbs up to the Purple Ties for rising to the task. They very easily could have said "not my job" and gone and secured a perimeter/the scene (not a knock on LEO's).
I have been on many scenes that the PD assisted with fire operations, none were ever freelancing, and everyone forgets....
WE ARE ALL OUT THERE FOR ONE PURPOSE!!! TO PROTECT AND SERVE THE PUBLIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So long as that gets done, in a controlled manner, and everyone goes home safe, everyone should take a chill pill, and re-focus and worry about the problems they/their own department has, before throwing out s*** about what others do.
[/rant]

Taken from the Valley Breeze Newsparper in RI: http://www.valleybreeze.com/2012/05/02/cl/what-is-a-firefighter-worth
(*)

Years back we had a problem in a number of the elementary schools (and Middle & High schools) and would get called there multiple times every night. THey would not let us have keys or install knox boxes. They would pay the custodian double time to come in. It always took 1-2 hours to get them there (the all lived in town). Over the course of 1-2 years they ran up a fine of over $60,000. We finally got fed up and told them: no key.... get there in 15 minutes or we will use Chief Haligans Key. That solved the response time, but not the alarms or the bill. Till the School system sent us a bill of $40,000 for opening the high school to hold FD Civil service testing. We sent their bill back with an adjusted bill stating they now only owed us $20,000.
Since that time the problem appears to be greatly reduced.