JJB531

First off, I am not your bro....
Secondly, I said that I agree that he could have been taken into custody, I just didn't agree with swimming out there in a bathing suit.
Thirdly, we all risk our lives to save others. The model of risk vs benefit that I use is one that allows me to conduct a rescue while taking the proper necessary precautions to ensure the highest possibility of success to effect the rescue without placing myself, my co-workers, and my victim in unnecessary harm. Unnecessarily risking your life is utterly ridiculous, a dead rescuer is no good to anyone, especially when the proper training and equipment is readily available.
Cowardice? If you see my respect for the standards that have been established to ensure rescuer and victim safety as cowardice, then so be it, it's not worth arguing. But if you need to prove to yourself what a brave man you are by carrying out "thrown together" rescues for the people you "swore to protect", then I'm sorry but you are a dangerous individual and I just hope you don't get anyone else hurt.

LMAO. Now I get it..you are a joke. Maybe its just you read like you spell. Read my post over...and slowly...in fact never mind I'll break it down for you one more time even though I don't think a divine intervention would allow you to get it.
1. We don't train in animal rescue other then we had a vet volunteer once to go over some animal first aid after a fire in a pet shop that many animals were in distress from smoke inhalation. And what I said was...I was involved in an animal rescue that we treated like a drill as it was minimal life safety risk. We took it step by step and checked and re-checked before going to get the dog. Little Timmy and the bystanders were quite happy once we did get him. And before yous say the dog could have bit me, it was exhausted by the time we got out there. Not that I really care what your opinion is from your previous comments.
2. You were trained in "all the water (I think you put it "warter") courses." So apparently either you went to the bathroom, fell asleep or your instructor skipped the PPE section in each one? Or is it you actually just think that the term PPE is confined to turnout gear? Personal Protective Equipment...just in case you're not sure what PPE actually stands for. So that means any equipment that will protect your a** for the task at hand.
I'll break it down in your lingo:
We donet due drills on anmal resq. We had a animal resque and we treeted it like it dun wuz a drill. o we took it reel slow. And yeah PPE dont means no turn out gear it means any equiment that gots used for a certin siuation.
Keep grasping at straws...I teach s*** for a reason...and I love to debate so keep coming pal. (Note you will never see "brother" typed for anything in response)

Are you seriously that "assamed" that you had to whip out your camera, snap a picture, an run home to post it in this forum? I mean really, like NY10570 said, if you were so "assamed" why didn't you man up and say something to this horrific offender of vehicle placement?

First off, I am not your bro....
Secondly, I said that I agree that he could have been taken into custody, I just didn't agree with swimming out there in a bathing suit.
Thirdly, we all risk our lives to save others. The model of risk vs benefit that I use is one that allows me to conduct a rescue while taking the proper necessary precautions to ensure the highest possibility of success to effect the rescue without placing myself, my co-workers, and my victim in unnecessary harm. Unnecessarily risking your life is utterly ridiculous, a dead rescuer is no good to anyone, especially when the proper training and equipment is readily available.
Cowardice? If you see my respect for the standards that have been established to ensure rescuer and victim safety as cowardice, then so be it, it's not worth arguing. But if you need to prove to yourself what a brave man you are by carrying out "thrown together" rescues for the people you "swore to protect", then I'm sorry but you are a dangerous individual and I just hope you don't get anyone else hurt.

First off, I am not your bro....
Secondly, I said that I agree that he could have been taken into custody, I just didn't agree with swimming out there in a bathing suit.
Thirdly, we all risk our lives to save others. The model of risk vs benefit that I use is one that allows me to conduct a rescue while taking the proper necessary precautions to ensure the highest possibility of success to effect the rescue without placing myself, my co-workers, and my victim in unnecessary harm. Unnecessarily risking your life is utterly ridiculous, a dead rescuer is no good to anyone, especially when the proper training and equipment is readily available.
Cowardice? If you see my respect for the standards that have been established to ensure rescuer and victim safety as cowardice, then so be it, it's not worth arguing. But if you need to prove to yourself what a brave man you are by carrying out "thrown together" rescues for the people you "swore to protect", then I'm sorry but you are a dangerous individual and I just hope you don't get anyone else hurt.

First off, I am not your bro....
Secondly, I said that I agree that he could have been taken into custody, I just didn't agree with swimming out there in a bathing suit.
Thirdly, we all risk our lives to save others. The model of risk vs benefit that I use is one that allows me to conduct a rescue while taking the proper necessary precautions to ensure the highest possibility of success to effect the rescue without placing myself, my co-workers, and my victim in unnecessary harm. Unnecessarily risking your life is utterly ridiculous, a dead rescuer is no good to anyone, especially when the proper training and equipment is readily available.
Cowardice? If you see my respect for the standards that have been established to ensure rescuer and victim safety as cowardice, then so be it, it's not worth arguing. But if you need to prove to yourself what a brave man you are by carrying out "thrown together" rescues for the people you "swore to protect", then I'm sorry but you are a dangerous individual and I just hope you don't get anyone else hurt.

I agree. He and many others offer invaluable information on a daily basis for free and most people bash them for it. Does that mean these people were proven wrong and cant be mature enough to admit it?
If I could I would hire Bnechis to come to our county and give a lecture or a seminar on firefighting, and pay him all we could afford.
As volunteers, we all too often hide behind the term when we discuss the requirements and time away from family, yet when someone as knowledgeable as Bnechis speeks up about the training standards being less than equal when compared and that people may be entitled to a better service, these same people get defensive, and claim we are the same...Im sorry folks but we are not. Volunteers need to be trained to the same standards, plain and simple.
In regards to covering calls, we seem to have forgotten about the one most important thing here, the people we serve. This isnt about departments ego or reputation, we are talking about getting a trained response to every call for help in a "TIMELY" manner. Anyone worried about response statistics and call volume and numbers of trucks responding as opposed to number of TRAINED providers able to actually help mitigate the incident responding as fast as possible, realy needs to re-evaluate the reason you are in the service. Its all about getting help where needed WHEN needed, and not a minute later. If your house is burning and your wife/husband is inside, the last thing you care about is the whining volunteer firefighter complaining about his family party being ruined or the fact his boss wouldnt let him/her respond right away. You do expect to see trained help arrive in a timely fashion that CAN help you, instead of 20 well intentioned good hearted people who are not trained interior firefighters that cant save your loved one. To see a group of firefighters in full turnouts standing around unable to help due to lack of training is a waste...sort of like going to an ER for help and seeing people dressed in white lab coats but none of them are doctors, kind of makes no sense right? So why are we still letting newer members with no training ride to calls? Why are we letting ANY member with no training respond to calls with an expensive suit of gear that they should not have?
Sorry, end of rant. Thank you for the replies to all who did, and thank you Bnechis for your professional attitude and demeanor in handling some of the insults, your contributions to this site are appreciated by some of us and I look forward to more in the future.
Stay Safe everyone.

I don't think anyone is playing God, I think they appropriately weighed the risk of fighting with a suicidal EDP in the water while lacking the appropriate training and equipment to safely effect the rescue. They didn't say "oh he's an EDP who wants to die so we're not going to rescue him", they said, "oh he's an EDP who has a propensity for violence and we don't have the proper equipment and training to effect this rescue safely, so is it worth risking the safety of the firefighters on the scene".

I don't think anyone is playing God, I think they appropriately weighed the risk of fighting with a suicidal EDP in the water while lacking the appropriate training and equipment to safely effect the rescue. They didn't say "oh he's an EDP who wants to die so we're not going to rescue him", they said, "oh he's an EDP who has a propensity for violence and we don't have the proper equipment and training to effect this rescue safely, so is it worth risking the safety of the firefighters on the scene".

Excellent posts so far. Also from a law enforcement perspective, this is a suicidal EDP in the water. Little bit of a difference between a "victim" who unintentionally ended up in the water and an individual who purposely placed himself in that position to cause himself harm. Placing a would-be rescuer who may not have the proper training and/or equipment into the waterborne environment is dangerous enough, now put that rescuer up against an individual who may have no problem taking a rescuer and anyone else who tries to interfere with their plans to commit suicide with them.
Edit: I just read the article that Seth posted a link to which discusses the same concerns I just brought up, I didn't read it before posting so I apologize.

Excellent posts so far. Also from a law enforcement perspective, this is a suicidal EDP in the water. Little bit of a difference between a "victim" who unintentionally ended up in the water and an individual who purposely placed himself in that position to cause himself harm. Placing a would-be rescuer who may not have the proper training and/or equipment into the waterborne environment is dangerous enough, now put that rescuer up against an individual who may have no problem taking a rescuer and anyone else who tries to interfere with their plans to commit suicide with them.
Edit: I just read the article that Seth posted a link to which discusses the same concerns I just brought up, I didn't read it before posting so I apologize.

It's not even worth explaining crime cop. 18 years old, not involved in law enforcement in any way, and he's the expert. How about you go out there and show us how it's done kid?

It's not even worth explaining crime cop. 18 years old, not involved in law enforcement in any way, and he's the expert. How about you go out there and show us how it's done kid?

It's not even worth explaining crime cop. 18 years old, not involved in law enforcement in any way, and he's the expert. How about you go out there and show us how it's done kid?

Just wanted to jump in on the discussion for a quick second. Forget about the title of EMT or Paramedic for a minute; speaking solely as a trained and certified practitioner of emergency medicine, nothing frustrates me more than walking into a room full of other trained and certified practitioners of prehospital emergency medicine, asking "What do ya got?" and being met with blank stares. Then asking "What vitals did you get?" and being met with blank stares. Then asking "Can anyone tell me anything about our patient?" only to be handed the clipboard with the patient's name and address written on the PCR, which does me absolutely no good at that given moment.
My point is that an EMT is certified by the State of New York Department of Health to practice prehospital emergency medicine. As basic as some of the skills may be, they are the foundation for every single intervention and treatment the patient is going to receive, at both the BLS and ALS level. Every trained and certified EMT passed the Patient assessment station during their NYS EMT practical skills exam, so when another trained prehospital care provider arrives on the scene where another trained and certified care provider has already initiated patient contact, there is an expectation that certain basic things are completed, time permitting of course, upon the arrival of additional providers (I.e. paramedics). Personally, all I look for is that the chief complaint has been determined, the airway is controlled, oxygen is being administered, ventilations are bein assisted if necessary, serious bleedings being controlled, and a baseline set of vital signs are taken. That's it! It's that whole initial assessment/focused history/vital signs part of the NYS patient assessment station. This is all that most medics are looking for from BLS providers. If you happen to get more, bravo! but I won't be frustrated if you didn't uncover that the patient had foot surgery in 1978 or that you failed to recognize the patient had muffled heart sounds. Why the rant? Because one individual in a previous post brought up the "paragod" complex when referring to Paramedics. Are some medics guilty of this syndrome? Yeah, unfortunately some are. I can tell you with the majority of Paramedics out there, it's not a "paragod" complex, it's an overwhelming sense of frustration that builds up in trained and certified prehospital care providers over time when they witness on a near daily basis the incompetence of some (note I said some, not all) trained and certified BLS providers who can't even handle the simplest of calls. I keep using the phrase "trained and certified" because that's what we all are; trained and certified to practice prehospital emergency medicine. Since we are "trained and certified" we should be held to a standard, not only by the state and other regulatory groups, but by our peers also. As an "EMS peer", I am deeply troubled when I witness other "trained and certified" providers who basically know nothing about the basics of providing prehospital emergency medical care. I have some semblance of patience with new EMT's because we were all new at one point. No one started out as a seasoned veteran. But when a trained and certified has to hold the hand of another trained and certified provider on every single call over the span of months, even years, the frustration starts to set in. This frustration, while it usually ends up being directed at the incompetent provider because they're the easiest target to vent, the overall problem goes well beyond just the provider.
Anyone who's been in the field long enough can tell you that BLS skills have diminished because:
A) A "dumbed down" EMT curriculum that doesn't promote thinking and understanding, it merely promotes recognition. We expect non-trained persons to recognize there's a problem, we should expect "trained and certified" medical professionals to interpret the findings into some form of a presumptive diagnosis to effectively treat the patient.
B. Minimal amount of BLS ambulance rotation hours. 8 or 12 hours of rotations are nowhere near adequate to prepare EMT's for the street.
C) The EMT certification has become more of a joke than anything else. Individuals at job fairs are encouraged to take the EMT class because "after 6 months of training you can make $10 an hour". It's like a bad infomercial. This is not a knock to EMT's, but more so at the means of selecting and recruiting candidates who are being attracted to the field because it's marketed as a quick and easy way to get a certification and start making money; similar to these shady phlebotomy and medical assistant programs you see on TV at 3am.
D) Medic dependency. With the overwhelming number of medics out there, and the fact that they often arrive at scenes first, EMT's are not getting the experience they need to be good providers. One of the problems Paramedics are faced with is walking that fine line of alienating BLS providers on jobs which leads to medic complaints, and then standing back and not getting intimately involved in calls that don't require ALS care, and getting medic complaints for not helping. I don't mind helping out on BLS calls or being a source of guidance, but I shouldn't have to run a BLS call. You're an EMT, you're "trained and certified", you should handle the call.
E) Lack of appropriate field training for new providers and a lack of continuing education for all providers.

Call me whatever...just reflect it in my pay and don't be late on it every 2 weeks.

Please......what type of training do you think is needed to rustle a wayward cow or steer found walking the highway after the truck that was carrying it flips over. How many CEUs could that be worth?
How do you become an instructor?
These are the type of incidents when you just have to use your brain and some luck.

Dispatch the special operations trailer, pictured here:

Dealing with it before it happens is not as easy as it sounds. You don't have individuals standing on the street corners dealing narcotics in the more affluent parts of Westchester. A lot of the narcotics purchased by users in more affluent parts of Westchester are purchased in some of the more impoverished parts of the county or NYC. So unless LE can intercept these individuals in their vehicles while they are transporting their narcotics to their residence, once they're inside their home, there's not much LE can do. LE has to follow the CPL in regards to stopping and searching persons and their vehicles, which brings up the obstacles of the law and reasonable suspicion, probable cause, etc. I think overall LE does a great job of intercepting larger amounts of narcotics on the county's roadways, but for every good grab 10 more individuals are slipping through the cracks. In NYC drug dealers and collared and released the same day with no bail, so the problem of enforcing drug laws goes well beyond LE. Judges are held to practically zero accountability and continually release these individuals back onto the streets to continue their "jobs" as a street pharmacist.

I'mnot trying take anything away from White Plains FD, but why is this thread entitled "White Plains FD Rescues Students" when the article clip mentions it was two alert White Plains Police Officers who roused the students?

I'm not really understanding why some of you still after very good input in posts from respected members in the profession on the street, are making this out to be so much more then it needs to be. Every type of situation can and will fall in a gray area. As I said in my initial post...if you are flagged down and stop...rapidly triage the situation and act accordingly. Notify your dispatching center of the situation and what you need in order to handle the situation overall...whether it be you control the situation you came across and have them send a unit and you explain the situation to the parties...or you stay at the one you are at and have another unit dispatched to your initial call and document a PCR for both incidents. There is no one exact answer here...attorney or not. Use your brains and stop the chicken little sky is falling with worries of litigation. Use your best judgement and document accordingly...unless you are extremely negligent you will have no worries lawsuit or not. And here is other food for thought...if you have multiple patients...do you not triage? And if you are the lone unit or even person on scene...do you not often have to leave patients to go to another and may not get any further if you have a critical injury that you can intervene and save or stabilize them? Similar instance...and again document document document. I can tell you there are times where enroute to one call, that another call will drop and be along my response route and have people waiving thinking I'm coming to them...sometimes I can stop quickly to tell them...other times I've seen them too late to safely stop and keep going. It happens. Relax...do your job the rest will come along.

As an experienced ALS provider and one who saw first hand the decline in BLS skill while still a BLS provider I have several opinions on this. And for the one who said they had "senior EMT's who hated medics," my experience has been they are often the most dangerous and suffer from certification napoleon complexes and are some of the ones I have to keep the closest eye on. But either way...as I often tell people...I'm not here to function so EMT's like me...I'm here for my patients to like me and give good solid patient care. I take being called a "dick" or "intimidating" as a compliment. I'm one of the most demanding medics in my system..and for one purpose..solid patient care. Any instructor and I have heard stories of people teaching..."do this and that and WAIT FOR ALS TO ARRIVE"....WHat!!!???!! Are you kidding me? I have to tell bls crews by radio often to not wait for me if I did a job from far away. Clip boards should be banned from in houses. If you are thrown into the real world..something is wrong...and unfortunately too many agencies push new EMT's into spots they are not ready for. Have required ride time as curriculums do not have enough field rotations in them for EMT-B's. Someone said something about being called old fashioned for taking the time to understanding something instead of throwing on O2 and putting them in semi fowlers and going to the hospital. Yes you are right...but it should take no more then 60 seconds to realize they need oxygen..use the time to get the lifting device you may need or the time transporting to figure it out...on scene time is important and one of the singular most important treatments any EMS provider can perform is transporting your patient.
With that said...
1. The change in curriculum in the late 90's to me was a dumb down of the certification and reduced the background and A & P knowledge us old curriculum EMT's needed to know. The patient assessment in the curriculum is absolutely atrocious and too cookie cutter. I became the medic I am because of strong bls education and street experience...its not there anymore.
2. Lack of training within VAC's. Some things need to be learned on the street..other things need to be learned and practiced as you don't use them often. CME training is often lectures...get them out of their chairs and review equipment and bls skills done in courses and testing.
3. I've worked around and seen some medics who don't step back enough to allow BLS to do their thing when appropriate. I always give them slack...and then take back over if they are lost.

I always enjoy when someone asks why the Police Departments try to take away work from the Fire Departments.
Let's look at NYPD ESU. NYPD ESU has been providing rescue services for the citizens of New York City since the 1930's. The Fire Department wanted nothing to do with rescue work, especially back in the days when the city was burning down, before the strict fire codes that exist today, along with the use of sprinkler systems, improved building materials, fireproofing, fire prevention programs, and everything else that has lead to a decrease in the number of fires. So for decades, the NYPD ESU was the sole provider of emergency rescue services in the City of New York.
It wasn't until the number of fires began to decrease, that the FDNY started getting involved with rescue work. So, should PD be asking why the FD was trying to duplicate a service already being provided by them? Before a lot of Westchester County Fire Departments purchased extrication equipment, extrications on the Westchester County Parkways were handled by the Westchester County Department of Public Safety. Should County PD have asked why the local FD's were trying to duplicate a service on the parkways already provided by them? The Town of Mount Pleasant Police was the sole provider of extrication services within their jurisdiction for years before the local fire departments purchased extrication equipment. Should the Town of Mount Pleasant PD have asked why the local FD's were trying to duplicate a service already being provided by the local PD?
Personally, I have no problem with FD's handling rescue work, and always look forward to working together at a scene rather then battle eachother. The one benefit I see to having both Firefighters and Police Officers assigned to Emergency Service Units taking part in a rescue, is that it gives you a larger talent pool to pull from in the event of a significant incident. There are some ESU officers who are talented rescue specialists, just as there are Firefighters assigned to Rescue Companies who possess the same talents and level of expertise. Being able to draw from the experiences and talents of both individuals at an incident is beneficial to the overall success of the operation.

FDNY rescue companies were originally formed to rescue firemen, not civilians, in the time when NYC was burning down. No need to get all worked up, both agencies play their part in the "rescue world". I'd rather be able to work alongside a talented group of rescue specialists from any agency (PD/FD/EMS). We should start striving to learn from eachother rather then be at eachothers throats over childish nonsense.

FDNY rescue companies were originally formed to rescue firemen, not civilians, in the time when NYC was burning down. No need to get all worked up, both agencies play their part in the "rescue world". I'd rather be able to work alongside a talented group of rescue specialists from any agency (PD/FD/EMS). We should start striving to learn from eachother rather then be at eachothers throats over childish nonsense.