bigrig77

Open the purge valve

Of course he did. That's the problem, they're being OVERTRAINED. They're not UNDERQUALIFIED!

I don't even know this guy, but from the sounds of it, if you are against him you are a moron. Any man who is willing to risk his reputation for the safety of the men is what I consider an allstar. All these guys who think he is the problem should go take a walk outside of Sloan Kettering on York Ave. Look at all the people who are sick from cancer, then see why this guy is so adamant about your welfare. Or you could just be in the clique and suck up to the next Chief and get stretch marks on your mouth.

I'm surprised that anyone would have any issues when it comes to safety and health, especially in the firehouse where people might spend a majority of their time. There might be more to this story then what we know.

Ah good old Roberts. Remember to try everything on. Alot of their stuff are seconds and they are over priced. Will work in a jam but selection is very slim.

Ah good old Roberts. Remember to try everything on. Alot of their stuff are seconds and they are over priced. Will work in a jam but selection is very slim.

Based on what I have seen over the years vacationing there, you can knock on any firehouse door in that area and see a handful of guys in the station - during the same time this fire occurred.
I agree with others that it wouldn't have mattered because of the wind, construction, and cause of the fire. What stopped that blaze was the enormous trench created by excavators and the fire line created. Could it have been established sooner and closer to the heart of the blaze - who knows. Point is, even if SHFD was out the door with paid or volunteer crews on dispatch, they were behind the eight-ball before the first 911 call even came in.
If anything can be blamed it would be years of salt water, sea air and Sandy.

Whether or not a paid department would've made a difference here is irrelevant for a few reasons:
1st off since there wasn't a paid department in place in Seaside Heights at the time of this fire, it's impossible to tell if their presence would've made a difference under the conditions present upon arrival. We can speculate all we want about response times, staffing or tactics, blah blah blah, it doesn't matter. Things were as they were and any number of circumstances could have placed a paid department in a position to be unavailable at that moment.
2nd paid departments do not have the monopoly on tactics, equipment or competency and that's a fact. Now if someone here was actually in Seaside Heights at the time and was there on the initial alarm and they know the Chief or officers and they know their backgrounds and competency...well then yeah to an extent, they can comment factually, otherwise it's nothing more than the speculations of Monday morning quarterbacks. I mean let's get real here, many a building(s) has burnt to the ground in career towns too and upon hindsight we learn that better resource management or deployments or tactics could have or should have been used. That's called learning and that's something we should all be doing regularly. The truth is every department makes mistakes or faces situations that test their limits and when faced with those circumstances does what they believe to be the "right" thing at the time. Should we sit here behind our keyboards and fault them for it, or worse revel in the misfortune of others to justify our point of view? No we shouldn't unless we were there to judge based on facts. What we should do is look at the situation for what it was and what it is and do our best to learn from it, lest we find ourselves in the same situation and get the same results.
Lastly, if taxpayers don't want to fund a paid department well then guess what, there isn't go to be one...end of story
Stay Safe

I would think that this issue should be focused on Seaside Heights and the surrounding area. Now as stated some Vols are good, some are bad. Some career are good, some are bad. we all know this. The heart of the issue is should Seaside Heights have a career department? Well yes they should. Now i know that for 9-10 months of the year it is a little slower but for those few summer months that place is bigger then alot of our districts. We have all been down the shore and been to these communities. you know that they are all older buildings and mostly wood frame constrution. When one goes up you have to deal with that sea breeze and the problems it can cause. If this fire had happened on Aug 11th, we would be talking about a completely diffrent story here. they needed guys on scene quickly and they needed alot of them. They know that the clock in their district runs faster because of that sea breeze and the building construction. The one obstical is how to pay for it. Well when you have the amount of money that comes into that place it should not even be a question. Taxes from the buisness should help cover the cost. For all the people who complain that taxes are too high and so on, just look at what that place was like on a summer night and what things cost. The money was there. The community took some short cuts on the boardwalk rebuild and this is what happened. The cash cow of the area is now gone. either they will rebuild or some other place will take its place.

Not sure if any of you were watching it live, we were since we were at a promotion party. They had a tower ladder set up with a fog nozzle, wtf good is that?! Water wasn't even making it to the fire.

No doubt and as gamewell45 correctly pointed out, those personalities are on both sides.
However, like many things in life, how you conduct yourself can often have a big influence on how others view and treat you. If you are squared away as a volunteer firefighter and/or fire department, then the vast majority of career firefighters will not have an issue. Now, if you act like a clown, don't know how to do the job or won't do the job, act more like a social club than a fire department, then they're will likely be some animosity - especially if you start playing the "we're all the same" card.
I work in a small career department in a small urban city surrounded by a good dozen volunteer fire departments who's districts directly border the city and few more close by. We pretty much have no choice but to use the volunteers if we need assistance with a fire. One is pretty squared away and we tend to call them first. A few more are ok and we use them when needed. A few more are pretty much posers and we've had issues with them when we've worked with them.
We maintain a pretty good relationship with most of the departments around us, but when you show up at our fire and your engine company gives us the "you want us to go.....in there and do....what?" look, we aren't going to view you favorably and you won't be invited back.
We don't get invited to many out of town calls for whatever reason, but when the neighbors do extend the invitation, we expect to work along side of you and not in place of you. We also expect that your IC (the fire chief) will not be drunk and require our duty chief and another mutual aid chief to assume control of the incident before somebody gets needlessly hurt or killed! When this is the case, we aren't going to view you favorably.
And for the record, I spent 9 years as a volunteer before getting hired 11 years ago.

Being a former volunteer firefighter and a career firefighter for the last 23 years (an officer for the last 15), here is my take on it:
Being career does not make you any better than being volunteer. I know some volunteer departments in my old hometown (Dutchess County NY) where everyone is well certified and competent, and they show up very rapidly when the tones go off. Heck, some of those guys are better trained than the people I currently work with.
It all has to do with the following and applies to both volunteer and career departments:
Leadership -- if the department's leadership does not make sure that there is a means to get their membership trained and encourages it, the department will never be functional.
Membership -- if you can't get enough people to adequately staff the vehicles when called, then the department will not be functional.
Political Support -- if you can't get the support of your commissioners or supervising governmental entity, the department will not be functional.
Fire Prevention -- if the department or municipality doesn't take fire prevention seriously and does not have a good inspection program in place where property owners are held accountable, there will be fire safety issues.
I've seen terrible volunteer departments and I've seen terrible career departments. I've also seen great career departments and volunteer departments that would put most career departments to shame. I really don't think it has anything to do with volunteer vs. career as a whole, but the specific area in NJ.
I've seen many departments here in Florida go from volunteer to career and shut down/disband firehouses completely so they could pay the staff of 2 firefighters on an engine for each of the other stations covering a larger area. Yes, you have 100% assurance a unit will respond immediately, but you have less units and longer response times in those areas where the fire stations were shut down.
This is just my 2 cents.

From what I have heard about this electrical fire, unless someone called it in when the problem first started happening it would not made much of a difference. People forget you had 30 MPH winds driving that fire so once flame broke out the theory of fire doubling every minute went out the window.
I have heard of plenty of large fires were paid departments were completely in charge and they still lost a lot. I have heard paid departments cancel mutual aid just to end up calling them back 10 minutes later as they are loosing the building.
No volunteers are not perfect but no one is. In this current world especially in our situation where we have a large mix of paid and volunteer departments we need to stop fighting one another and work with each other to get the job done.
Believe it or not volunteers will support paid firefighters MORE when they are not A**holes back at them.

Valid point, particularly with the loss of tax revinue from the fire (& potential loss in tourism) and the lawsuits that may come from the lost properties against the municipality for failing to replace the salt water damaged electricals under the boardwalk. A clear violation of standards and it appears the cause of the fire.

Yeah it would have made a huge difference. You would have had someone who didn't win a popularity contest actually in the position and who was trained to an exact level.

It is election time. I think Westchester firefighters need to get together for some good ole fashion picketing. It could be you next!!!

Time for a rally ?

My kids are all grown now, but when they were younger and before cell phones, I always told them that if for any reason they were in trouble and needed help, go the nearest fire station and tell them that their dad is a fireman and they would help them. I would hope that fire fighters today with young kids still have that feeling.

Antiquefirelt, I do think you hit the nail dead center on the head.
Respect for senior firefighters and officers has been destroyed by self-centered arrogant cocky young pups fresh out of firefighter 1 training who think they know it all too. Technology has taken away that close knit family feeling, and then the younger age coming in today are all "know-it-alls" because their daddy was a chief or their whole family was in the department...wrong. They come in instantly barking orders and demanding respect...wrong.
When I first joined in Long Island, I kept quiet, listened when a senior firefighter or officer spoke, volunteered for every assignment even if it was cleaning toilets, we had to stand at attention whenever the chief entered the meeting room during meetings or drills, and I never let a senior firefighter pack hose after calls even if I were exhausted. I asked them questions and tried to learn something new every time, even if I was already comfortable with what we were drilling on. I never acted cocky, or arrogant, or touted my own horn. After time, I saw that I EARNED the respect they finaly showed me when I was around the station, and I was able to joke around more. It took time. Today; everyone expects instant over-night success and respect just because they joined. I fully blame that on what was already mentioned a few times; todays kids are getting awards for everything, even just for participating, and they never fail and do not learn that they have to work hard to succeed. They are now turning 18 and joining the fire service expecting to be rewarded instantly for everything, and they dont know how to earn anything. Its sad.
I guess old timers like you and I are a thing of the past...
Brotherhood is dead, I dont know when it was on life support or how it ever was allowed to slip away like it did, but people like me, and you (antiquefirelt, Firnatine, and others) will still try to pass on the traditions and share the brotherhood that we have still in our hearts. Its up to the others to accept it and practice it though and thats what bothers me...

just had 4 guys from Detroit Fd in last week not a lot of surround and drown, more like 3 - 5 fires a shift and get your ass kicked. And for no money, and now no city pension. More like a 401-k. Shame what the city has done to that dept. And you don't try to be a firefighter for a couple of years, it isn't like buying a car to see if you like it.

Maybe could it be people are to drunk to find their cars, so they are setting off their car alarms to find them.

The NYC Sergeants Benevolent Association representing the NYPD Sergeants is calling out Quinn for using special courtesies that have gotten others arrested, and for wasting money with her ridiculous Inspector General for the NYPD
http://sbanyc.net/documents/quinnAd.pdf

"Quinn was speaking before cameras about the reopening of the controversial E. 91st St. marine transfer station when the 17-year-old girl suddenly dropped to the ground in front of the crowd shortly before noon, witnesses said.
The speaker ran over to the teen, who may have collapsed because of the heat, and began rubbing her arms as a member of Quinn's detail — an NYPD cop who is a trained EMT — began rendering aid to the girl.
"It's going to be okay," Quinn told the girl as another bystander called 911.
They quickly pulled the girl into the shade under a tent as Quinn's security guard grabbed an oxygen tank to help the young woman breathe.
But Quinn finally lost her patience after waiting about 30 minutes for an ambulance to arrive and dialed NYPD Commissioner Raymond Kelly for help.
"We were trying to get through to [FDNY Commissioner] Sal Cassano, and I was unable to get connected," Quinn said."
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2013/07/chris-quinn-slams-outrageous-30-minute-wait-for-ambulance-after-intern-collaps
Interesting, injured woman faints and is conscious and being treat by "trained personnel" (a police officer who is also an EMT). Triaged as it should and held for higher priority calls due to a 25% spike in call volume. But because it is the Speakers intern there is "outrage " because it should have been a "priority 1" call. Maybe they should hold the arrest, MI, stroke or true unconscious for her intern. This is the same Speaker that would have called for a City Council investigation if an MOS family's call was bumped up. I guess it is justified when you call the Police Commissioners private cell and pull strings to get your low priority call bumped up to a high priority "unconscious" even though the woman was conscious. Maybe the speaker and her intern should have followed her own instructions that she has been handing out since the heat wave started - stay hydrated, in the shade when possible and wear light colored, loose fitting clothing.

As a rivertown resident it's upsetting for me to see the Irvington Volunteer Ambulance Corps slowly go down the tube. In a recent Irvington Work Section on WEDNESDAY, JULY 10, 2013 - 7:00 P.M. On the village website http://www.irvingtonny.gov/ Captain Ellen Lewit spoke to Village Mayor, Trusees and said the Ambulance Corps is in big trouble. Now lets go back in time where IVAC had 60 or +/-members and about 30 +/- EMTs, and there was a time when they talked about always covering Dobbs Ferry when they could'nt bet a rig out. Well the shoe is on the other foot now Dobbs Ferry is covering Irvington. The Captain even says it during the meeting and if anything happened to her the Ambulance would never get out. It concerns me that the Captain is spilling her guts to the Village which has nothing to do with the Ambulance Corps. except for the contract to provide service to Irvington and the retirement plan. It's time for a paid service in Irvington. Why wait until someone dies because they ca't get a rig out and what does the Dept of Emergency Services say that IVAC is not following the Mutual Aide Agreement correctly. In the video of the work session, Captain Lewit metions that she has been in contact with Dobbs for coverage. Has she informed 60 Control of this? This problem within IVAC has been growing for sometime now. I think it's time for Greenburgh or the County to investigate this serios problem. And the kick in the butt is that they still have CME training and EMT classes and no old or new members for IVAC are in it. I know all Volunteer organizations have some problems recruting or getting rigs out in a fast time. But this happened to IVAC very fast and very bad. Lately it's been the talk of the villages.The only idea that might help is that the Rivertowns is to merge in some way or go all paid. It's time to clean house in IVAC and help it before it falls. THEY NEED VOLUNTEERS NOW.

I was going to "reply" to your comment but I think Sage, firecapt32 and Bnechis did a fine job of explaining things better to you.
But I can ask you a few questions to paint a better picture for you; what if a cop grabbed a well intentioned bystander, who "just wanted to help his neighbors", gave him some body armor and an AR 15, and told them to enter a bank filled with hostages and save them? Do you think the outcome will be positive, or messy??
OK, now take a Paramedic at an MCI accident. This medic grabs that same John Q Public guy who realy wants to help and tells him to go start an IV on the two unconcious people in the one car and do a needle chest decompression on them as well...are we getting anywhere yet??
If you want to help your neighbor thats great, I salute you and encourage you, but you need to KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING if you truly want to help someone. Training is essential to the fire service. It must be done, and it must be maintained and refreshed or you will end up killing someone.
Im sorry, but your attitude towards the fire service and how you feel you dont need training to be a firefighter is dangerous, and its how we have so many LODD's to think about.
Just one last thought to leave you with; your the John Q Public guy who realy wants to help, you jump on the shiny fire engine when the siren goes off, because you know, you want to help, right? When you arrive on scene you hear someone yelling for help, theres smoke coming from the structure but no fire, and you run up to the front door with your cape fluttering and your chest puffed out and you open the door..........do we still have viable victims to rescue at this point? Did we know what the signs of impending backdraft were before opening the door? Did we know where the fire was and have it properly vented and hoselines in place? But hey; you just want to help...
Get training, or like everyone else told you already join the red cross or the local church so you can help.