Dinosaur

Guys that are on light-duty are generally recovering from an injury or illness and have no business being on a fireground.
They have the same training as any "full-duty" FF so your attempt at a comparison is flawed.

Here's another part of the problem. Some departments call every member a firefighter whether they have training or not. They all have uniforms, they all march in parades, and when the town asks, they're counted in the head count of "firefighters". This only makes the problem of understaffing worse when we lie to ourselves and our constituents.
Some departments only have a handful of "interior" firefighters and rely heavily on others to assist them. Is that the right thing to do?
One standard for FF statewide in NY would be a great first step toward eliminating the rift between career and volunteer. But so long as FASNY has anything to say about it, we'll just suffer with the different standards and misrepresentation.

Career training vs Volunteer training. Hundreds of hours that are mandated, or 10 hours that are mandated. With career personnel, you know that every firefighter is trained the exact same way as the guy sitting next to him, or the guy in your department. State standards mandate this. Volunteers, because of the "wonderful" work FASNY has done, have 0 requirements. All that is required is the federally mandated 10 hours of "on the job osha training," which varies from department to department. 10 hours... which is less then 1 hour a month of training, to go inside a burning building and be responsible for people's livelihood.
Yes, many volunteers go way above and beyond the call and perform hundreds of individual hours. No one here is doubting whether or not volunteers hearts and minds are in the right place. It takes some serious balls to run into a burning building for free.
Where in the problem lies, is that there is 0 standard as to what volunteers need. It's left up to the "authority having jurisdiction". That AHJ could mandate that all interior members need FF1, FF2, Fast, Survival, hazmat ops, confined space rescue, cat in tree rescue, aircraft rescue and vehicle rescue before they step foot on a truck to respond, or the could say, "meh, our in-house course is good enough. Here's a hand-line, this is how you open the bale, stay low, now go and put the wet stuff on the red stuff."
A set list of mandated training across the board (which is what MANY other states have done) requiring that career and volunteer personnel are trained exactly the same way would be in the best interest of everyone; volunteers, career, mutual aid, and most importantly, the citizens you took an oath to protect.

If they all have the same training, why 3 classifications?
Where I am we all have the same training and classify everyone as a firefighter.

It's because they HAVE the manpower......it's just not the RIGHT manpower....more smoke and mirrors.

We use companies, engines, trucks, etc. so we have accountability and maintain a span of control. THe IC does not have time to keep track of a bunch of guys doing some work around the edges. When we call mutual aid we need FIREFIGHTERS, not HELPERS.
I believe that all of those depts. have a policy for M/A of a minimum of 3, so which of those listed only sent 2
BINGO!!!

There are tons of cases where personal feelings change alarm assignments and that is categorically wrong. But it is also true that your next door neighbor isn't always the best crew for the job. You have to factor in training and manpower. While we're beating the dead horse, if NYS would step up to the plate and make a universal standard to be a firefighter we could avoid this. Sorry for the suggestion, FASNY.

My question is; what are Junior members doing on apparatus responding to a mutual aid call in the first place?

How hard would it be for the 2 Depts involved to have an understanding that if the Volunteer Dept is called into the Career area on M/A they must have the same amount or more interior F/F's as staffed on the same career rig that is requested. Career has a staffing of 4 on an Engine...the volunteer company coming in M/A must have 4 or more as well. Career Ladder has 3....volunteer M/A ladder must have at least 3.

According to Lohud, the FD tender is at the hospital already.
If this doesn't get resolved shortly Westchester may need a strike team or two. If they move many more tankers into Yonkers, the rest of the County will need back-fill coverage as well.
Interesting development for sure. I wonder how the mayor feels about his plans to close companies now.

According to Lohud, the FD tender is at the hospital already.
If this doesn't get resolved shortly Westchester may need a strike team or two. If they move many more tankers into Yonkers, the rest of the County will need back-fill coverage as well.
Interesting development for sure. I wonder how the mayor feels about his plans to close companies now.

If you've given up, get the hell out of the classroom. I've sat in classes taught by instructors that have "given up" and they usually suck! The best classes, and those that fill up the fastest, are taught by people with passion for the subject and their job as the instructor and more than just a little knowledge/experience. If you've got the knowledge and experience, dig up some passion and keep trying to educate the youth in the fire service. You may not be able to change the minds of other dinosaurs like me but we're not the ones that you have to pass the baton to.
We've all banged our heads against rock walls when people simply refuse to change or adapt. But as I read this thread you're doing the same thing. You're saying that we can't increase the standard because volunteers simply don't have the time and we should further water down our training and make it on-line. Most on-line training sucks. Most people don't actually train, they just look for the answers to the test questions and their fancy certificate. That's not training.
We need to cut the BS and establish a real standard for FF training in NY. Virtually every other state has done it and we can too. There's no reason for career FF to have one standard and volunteer FF to have another (that may not even be enforced). The time has come to do away with this interior/exterior crap and make everyone a firefighter. Can't do it? Fine, we'll find some other role for you but it won't be called firefighter. We've been whittling away at this stuff for too long and it makes me sick.
There's one standard for everyone else. Cop, EMT, paramedic, barber, cosmetologist. All one standard. FF, there's nothing. Unless you're a career FF and you have to meet the 229 regs. Other states do it, we can to. We just have to stop making excuses and start making changes!
Let's say the standard is 400 hours to be designated a firefighter. There's no reason why you can't break that down into courses that volunteers can take on a part-time schedule.
Time to stop the nonsense and start fixing this problem!

If you've given up, get the hell out of the classroom. I've sat in classes taught by instructors that have "given up" and they usually suck! The best classes, and those that fill up the fastest, are taught by people with passion for the subject and their job as the instructor and more than just a little knowledge/experience. If you've got the knowledge and experience, dig up some passion and keep trying to educate the youth in the fire service. You may not be able to change the minds of other dinosaurs like me but we're not the ones that you have to pass the baton to.
We've all banged our heads against rock walls when people simply refuse to change or adapt. But as I read this thread you're doing the same thing. You're saying that we can't increase the standard because volunteers simply don't have the time and we should further water down our training and make it on-line. Most on-line training sucks. Most people don't actually train, they just look for the answers to the test questions and their fancy certificate. That's not training.
We need to cut the BS and establish a real standard for FF training in NY. Virtually every other state has done it and we can too. There's no reason for career FF to have one standard and volunteer FF to have another (that may not even be enforced). The time has come to do away with this interior/exterior crap and make everyone a firefighter. Can't do it? Fine, we'll find some other role for you but it won't be called firefighter. We've been whittling away at this stuff for too long and it makes me sick.
There's one standard for everyone else. Cop, EMT, paramedic, barber, cosmetologist. All one standard. FF, there's nothing. Unless you're a career FF and you have to meet the 229 regs. Other states do it, we can to. We just have to stop making excuses and start making changes!
Let's say the standard is 400 hours to be designated a firefighter. There's no reason why you can't break that down into courses that volunteers can take on a part-time schedule.
Time to stop the nonsense and start fixing this problem!

More squandered grant money. No offense to you or your department but the narrowbanding issue has been coming for years and most departments simply built it into their long term plan and made it work. If they needed to buy new hardware they did it during the years we've known this was coming.
Instead of dealing with it, yours and many other departments ignored it and waited until it became a crisis and took federal dollars to fix it.
There are still departments trying to buy 2 channel portable handie-talkies for their 2 fireground frequencies instead of buying real radios that cost the same amount but can have all the interoperable frequencies and fireground frequencies put in them. More squandered opportunities.
Home rule just plain sucks because there's no standardization, no common practices or procedures, and a myriad of different radio systems, hardware, and protocols. It's just stupid that some departments refuse to align themselves with their neighbors because with their one or two calls a day they know better than everyone else.

If you've given up, get the hell out of the classroom. I've sat in classes taught by instructors that have "given up" and they usually suck! The best classes, and those that fill up the fastest, are taught by people with passion for the subject and their job as the instructor and more than just a little knowledge/experience. If you've got the knowledge and experience, dig up some passion and keep trying to educate the youth in the fire service. You may not be able to change the minds of other dinosaurs like me but we're not the ones that you have to pass the baton to.
We've all banged our heads against rock walls when people simply refuse to change or adapt. But as I read this thread you're doing the same thing. You're saying that we can't increase the standard because volunteers simply don't have the time and we should further water down our training and make it on-line. Most on-line training sucks. Most people don't actually train, they just look for the answers to the test questions and their fancy certificate. That's not training.
We need to cut the BS and establish a real standard for FF training in NY. Virtually every other state has done it and we can too. There's no reason for career FF to have one standard and volunteer FF to have another (that may not even be enforced). The time has come to do away with this interior/exterior crap and make everyone a firefighter. Can't do it? Fine, we'll find some other role for you but it won't be called firefighter. We've been whittling away at this stuff for too long and it makes me sick.
There's one standard for everyone else. Cop, EMT, paramedic, barber, cosmetologist. All one standard. FF, there's nothing. Unless you're a career FF and you have to meet the 229 regs. Other states do it, we can to. We just have to stop making excuses and start making changes!
Let's say the standard is 400 hours to be designated a firefighter. There's no reason why you can't break that down into courses that volunteers can take on a part-time schedule.
Time to stop the nonsense and start fixing this problem!

If you've given up, get the hell out of the classroom. I've sat in classes taught by instructors that have "given up" and they usually suck! The best classes, and those that fill up the fastest, are taught by people with passion for the subject and their job as the instructor and more than just a little knowledge/experience. If you've got the knowledge and experience, dig up some passion and keep trying to educate the youth in the fire service. You may not be able to change the minds of other dinosaurs like me but we're not the ones that you have to pass the baton to.
We've all banged our heads against rock walls when people simply refuse to change or adapt. But as I read this thread you're doing the same thing. You're saying that we can't increase the standard because volunteers simply don't have the time and we should further water down our training and make it on-line. Most on-line training sucks. Most people don't actually train, they just look for the answers to the test questions and their fancy certificate. That's not training.
We need to cut the BS and establish a real standard for FF training in NY. Virtually every other state has done it and we can too. There's no reason for career FF to have one standard and volunteer FF to have another (that may not even be enforced). The time has come to do away with this interior/exterior crap and make everyone a firefighter. Can't do it? Fine, we'll find some other role for you but it won't be called firefighter. We've been whittling away at this stuff for too long and it makes me sick.
There's one standard for everyone else. Cop, EMT, paramedic, barber, cosmetologist. All one standard. FF, there's nothing. Unless you're a career FF and you have to meet the 229 regs. Other states do it, we can to. We just have to stop making excuses and start making changes!
Let's say the standard is 400 hours to be designated a firefighter. There's no reason why you can't break that down into courses that volunteers can take on a part-time schedule.
Time to stop the nonsense and start fixing this problem!

If you've given up, get the hell out of the classroom. I've sat in classes taught by instructors that have "given up" and they usually suck! The best classes, and those that fill up the fastest, are taught by people with passion for the subject and their job as the instructor and more than just a little knowledge/experience. If you've got the knowledge and experience, dig up some passion and keep trying to educate the youth in the fire service. You may not be able to change the minds of other dinosaurs like me but we're not the ones that you have to pass the baton to.
We've all banged our heads against rock walls when people simply refuse to change or adapt. But as I read this thread you're doing the same thing. You're saying that we can't increase the standard because volunteers simply don't have the time and we should further water down our training and make it on-line. Most on-line training sucks. Most people don't actually train, they just look for the answers to the test questions and their fancy certificate. That's not training.
We need to cut the BS and establish a real standard for FF training in NY. Virtually every other state has done it and we can too. There's no reason for career FF to have one standard and volunteer FF to have another (that may not even be enforced). The time has come to do away with this interior/exterior crap and make everyone a firefighter. Can't do it? Fine, we'll find some other role for you but it won't be called firefighter. We've been whittling away at this stuff for too long and it makes me sick.
There's one standard for everyone else. Cop, EMT, paramedic, barber, cosmetologist. All one standard. FF, there's nothing. Unless you're a career FF and you have to meet the 229 regs. Other states do it, we can to. We just have to stop making excuses and start making changes!
Let's say the standard is 400 hours to be designated a firefighter. There's no reason why you can't break that down into courses that volunteers can take on a part-time schedule.
Time to stop the nonsense and start fixing this problem!

If you've given up, get the hell out of the classroom. I've sat in classes taught by instructors that have "given up" and they usually suck! The best classes, and those that fill up the fastest, are taught by people with passion for the subject and their job as the instructor and more than just a little knowledge/experience. If you've got the knowledge and experience, dig up some passion and keep trying to educate the youth in the fire service. You may not be able to change the minds of other dinosaurs like me but we're not the ones that you have to pass the baton to.
We've all banged our heads against rock walls when people simply refuse to change or adapt. But as I read this thread you're doing the same thing. You're saying that we can't increase the standard because volunteers simply don't have the time and we should further water down our training and make it on-line. Most on-line training sucks. Most people don't actually train, they just look for the answers to the test questions and their fancy certificate. That's not training.
We need to cut the BS and establish a real standard for FF training in NY. Virtually every other state has done it and we can too. There's no reason for career FF to have one standard and volunteer FF to have another (that may not even be enforced). The time has come to do away with this interior/exterior crap and make everyone a firefighter. Can't do it? Fine, we'll find some other role for you but it won't be called firefighter. We've been whittling away at this stuff for too long and it makes me sick.
There's one standard for everyone else. Cop, EMT, paramedic, barber, cosmetologist. All one standard. FF, there's nothing. Unless you're a career FF and you have to meet the 229 regs. Other states do it, we can to. We just have to stop making excuses and start making changes!
Let's say the standard is 400 hours to be designated a firefighter. There's no reason why you can't break that down into courses that volunteers can take on a part-time schedule.
Time to stop the nonsense and start fixing this problem!

If you've given up, get the hell out of the classroom. I've sat in classes taught by instructors that have "given up" and they usually suck! The best classes, and those that fill up the fastest, are taught by people with passion for the subject and their job as the instructor and more than just a little knowledge/experience. If you've got the knowledge and experience, dig up some passion and keep trying to educate the youth in the fire service. You may not be able to change the minds of other dinosaurs like me but we're not the ones that you have to pass the baton to.
We've all banged our heads against rock walls when people simply refuse to change or adapt. But as I read this thread you're doing the same thing. You're saying that we can't increase the standard because volunteers simply don't have the time and we should further water down our training and make it on-line. Most on-line training sucks. Most people don't actually train, they just look for the answers to the test questions and their fancy certificate. That's not training.
We need to cut the BS and establish a real standard for FF training in NY. Virtually every other state has done it and we can too. There's no reason for career FF to have one standard and volunteer FF to have another (that may not even be enforced). The time has come to do away with this interior/exterior crap and make everyone a firefighter. Can't do it? Fine, we'll find some other role for you but it won't be called firefighter. We've been whittling away at this stuff for too long and it makes me sick.
There's one standard for everyone else. Cop, EMT, paramedic, barber, cosmetologist. All one standard. FF, there's nothing. Unless you're a career FF and you have to meet the 229 regs. Other states do it, we can to. We just have to stop making excuses and start making changes!
Let's say the standard is 400 hours to be designated a firefighter. There's no reason why you can't break that down into courses that volunteers can take on a part-time schedule.
Time to stop the nonsense and start fixing this problem!

If you've given up, get the hell out of the classroom. I've sat in classes taught by instructors that have "given up" and they usually suck! The best classes, and those that fill up the fastest, are taught by people with passion for the subject and their job as the instructor and more than just a little knowledge/experience. If you've got the knowledge and experience, dig up some passion and keep trying to educate the youth in the fire service. You may not be able to change the minds of other dinosaurs like me but we're not the ones that you have to pass the baton to.
We've all banged our heads against rock walls when people simply refuse to change or adapt. But as I read this thread you're doing the same thing. You're saying that we can't increase the standard because volunteers simply don't have the time and we should further water down our training and make it on-line. Most on-line training sucks. Most people don't actually train, they just look for the answers to the test questions and their fancy certificate. That's not training.
We need to cut the BS and establish a real standard for FF training in NY. Virtually every other state has done it and we can too. There's no reason for career FF to have one standard and volunteer FF to have another (that may not even be enforced). The time has come to do away with this interior/exterior crap and make everyone a firefighter. Can't do it? Fine, we'll find some other role for you but it won't be called firefighter. We've been whittling away at this stuff for too long and it makes me sick.
There's one standard for everyone else. Cop, EMT, paramedic, barber, cosmetologist. All one standard. FF, there's nothing. Unless you're a career FF and you have to meet the 229 regs. Other states do it, we can to. We just have to stop making excuses and start making changes!
Let's say the standard is 400 hours to be designated a firefighter. There's no reason why you can't break that down into courses that volunteers can take on a part-time schedule.
Time to stop the nonsense and start fixing this problem!

If you've given up, get the hell out of the classroom. I've sat in classes taught by instructors that have "given up" and they usually suck! The best classes, and those that fill up the fastest, are taught by people with passion for the subject and their job as the instructor and more than just a little knowledge/experience. If you've got the knowledge and experience, dig up some passion and keep trying to educate the youth in the fire service. You may not be able to change the minds of other dinosaurs like me but we're not the ones that you have to pass the baton to.
We've all banged our heads against rock walls when people simply refuse to change or adapt. But as I read this thread you're doing the same thing. You're saying that we can't increase the standard because volunteers simply don't have the time and we should further water down our training and make it on-line. Most on-line training sucks. Most people don't actually train, they just look for the answers to the test questions and their fancy certificate. That's not training.
We need to cut the BS and establish a real standard for FF training in NY. Virtually every other state has done it and we can too. There's no reason for career FF to have one standard and volunteer FF to have another (that may not even be enforced). The time has come to do away with this interior/exterior crap and make everyone a firefighter. Can't do it? Fine, we'll find some other role for you but it won't be called firefighter. We've been whittling away at this stuff for too long and it makes me sick.
There's one standard for everyone else. Cop, EMT, paramedic, barber, cosmetologist. All one standard. FF, there's nothing. Unless you're a career FF and you have to meet the 229 regs. Other states do it, we can to. We just have to stop making excuses and start making changes!
Let's say the standard is 400 hours to be designated a firefighter. There's no reason why you can't break that down into courses that volunteers can take on a part-time schedule.
Time to stop the nonsense and start fixing this problem!

If you've given up, get the hell out of the classroom. I've sat in classes taught by instructors that have "given up" and they usually suck! The best classes, and those that fill up the fastest, are taught by people with passion for the subject and their job as the instructor and more than just a little knowledge/experience. If you've got the knowledge and experience, dig up some passion and keep trying to educate the youth in the fire service. You may not be able to change the minds of other dinosaurs like me but we're not the ones that you have to pass the baton to.
We've all banged our heads against rock walls when people simply refuse to change or adapt. But as I read this thread you're doing the same thing. You're saying that we can't increase the standard because volunteers simply don't have the time and we should further water down our training and make it on-line. Most on-line training sucks. Most people don't actually train, they just look for the answers to the test questions and their fancy certificate. That's not training.
We need to cut the BS and establish a real standard for FF training in NY. Virtually every other state has done it and we can too. There's no reason for career FF to have one standard and volunteer FF to have another (that may not even be enforced). The time has come to do away with this interior/exterior crap and make everyone a firefighter. Can't do it? Fine, we'll find some other role for you but it won't be called firefighter. We've been whittling away at this stuff for too long and it makes me sick.
There's one standard for everyone else. Cop, EMT, paramedic, barber, cosmetologist. All one standard. FF, there's nothing. Unless you're a career FF and you have to meet the 229 regs. Other states do it, we can to. We just have to stop making excuses and start making changes!
Let's say the standard is 400 hours to be designated a firefighter. There's no reason why you can't break that down into courses that volunteers can take on a part-time schedule.
Time to stop the nonsense and start fixing this problem!

Sonny, you really need to lighten up! This wasn't an annual inspection or an emergency response. It was a parade and they were having fun, as they should. I thought it was funny and I knew none of the back story or the relationship between Mill Plains and Brewster (thanks FitzJr for sharing).
I think the "skit" as fitz described it is a pleasant distraction from the line of trucks and the rigid formations of uniforms. So people may not have known the inner workings of the relationship between the departments but they had to laugh at the folly and the departure from the norm.
Personally, I'm glad someone was having fun! "LIKE" to the boys (and girls) from Mill Plains.

Sonny, you really need to lighten up! This wasn't an annual inspection or an emergency response. It was a parade and they were having fun, as they should. I thought it was funny and I knew none of the back story or the relationship between Mill Plains and Brewster (thanks FitzJr for sharing).
I think the "skit" as fitz described it is a pleasant distraction from the line of trucks and the rigid formations of uniforms. So people may not have known the inner workings of the relationship between the departments but they had to laugh at the folly and the departure from the norm.
Personally, I'm glad someone was having fun! "LIKE" to the boys (and girls) from Mill Plains.

Sonny, you really need to lighten up! This wasn't an annual inspection or an emergency response. It was a parade and they were having fun, as they should. I thought it was funny and I knew none of the back story or the relationship between Mill Plains and Brewster (thanks FitzJr for sharing).
I think the "skit" as fitz described it is a pleasant distraction from the line of trucks and the rigid formations of uniforms. So people may not have known the inner workings of the relationship between the departments but they had to laugh at the folly and the departure from the norm.
Personally, I'm glad someone was having fun! "LIKE" to the boys (and girls) from Mill Plains.