LayTheLine

Very discouraging... This post was just showing the difference in maneuverability, no about manning and plan B and all the other complaints voiced here. I've only been on this forum for less than a year and just about every post ends up going off topic and bashing the fire service for all the problems there are. News Flash - The general public has access to this forum, it's not a password protected spot. When they read it and, more importantly, when the town fathers and managers read this they must think "what a bunch of lunk heads. No need worrying about them at town meeting because they can't agree on anything and don't get along with each other."
 
Open discussion is good when done in a positive way. But the negative comments and the Monday Morning Quarterbacking on this forum is ridiculous.
 
Getting back to the post: It was a very good video which I learned a lot from in 2 1/2 minutes. Yes, there are different types of ladders with advantages and disadvantages to all of them and that's a good and valid discussion.  FireMedic049, thanks for explaining how the tiller becomes more of a tractor-trailer than a straight stick when the rear wheels are locked. Something else I just learned.
 
Anyway, have at it boys, I've got better things to do!

I know this will rustle the feathers of many, but think about it in terms of police. YES, Police. If a police officer is returning from training in another jurisdiction and comes across an accident, a robbery, or swerving drunk-driver, they will call it in to the either their dispatch or the jurisdiction the call is in and then render appropriate action until the arrival of the appropriate jurisdiction. The same thing would happen if they were near their own town line and saw something happen in the next jurisdiction. The questions are what did you know, when did you know it and what did you do about it? If the answer comes back to being reasonable, then I'm all for acting.
 
As a few have pointed out, the Scarsdale incident isn't very clear as to what happened. Eastchester could have very well been out on their own smoke investigation and come across the fire.  If so, report it to the jurisdiction having authority by common radio frequency or your own dispatch and then render aid in a reasonable manner until the "home team" shows up.
 
As for any incident near a town line, I would expect that if the FDNY were out on a smoke investigation near the Yonkers city line and they came to the Westchester border and saw smoke coming out of a building and some mother out front frantically running around that they would respond and do what they could do to assist until Yonkers showed up. If I were the FDNY Battalion Chief I would initiate operations, possibly make a rescue, and when Yonkers showed up I would go to the first arriving officer and say, "FDNY is on location, we have 2 engines and 1 ladder working. We rescued a child from floor 2. We have 1 line stretched in operation on the 1st floor. This is your city and your incident - you are in-charge, what can we do to help you?" If the Yonkers officer said continue operations and we'll stretch a back-up line I'd appreciate it. Once our troops arrive we'll try to kick you free ASAP" then I'd stay and do what was REASONABLE and respect the Yonkers officer's decision. If (I don't think Yonkers would do this) he said, "This is our fire and get out of our city" then I'd say, "Fine, pack-it up boys and let's hit the road. Good-luck!" 
 
This is not rocket-science. It's about what and when you became aware of something and then what did you do about it and was the action REASONABLE to do. Working together is a wonderful thing!!

Very discouraging... This post was just showing the difference in maneuverability, no about manning and plan B and all the other complaints voiced here. I've only been on this forum for less than a year and just about every post ends up going off topic and bashing the fire service for all the problems there are. News Flash - The general public has access to this forum, it's not a password protected spot. When they read it and, more importantly, when the town fathers and managers read this they must think "what a bunch of lunk heads. No need worrying about them at town meeting because they can't agree on anything and don't get along with each other."
 
Open discussion is good when done in a positive way. But the negative comments and the Monday Morning Quarterbacking on this forum is ridiculous.
 
Getting back to the post: It was a very good video which I learned a lot from in 2 1/2 minutes. Yes, there are different types of ladders with advantages and disadvantages to all of them and that's a good and valid discussion.  FireMedic049, thanks for explaining how the tiller becomes more of a tractor-trailer than a straight stick when the rear wheels are locked. Something else I just learned.
 
Anyway, have at it boys, I've got better things to do!

Very discouraging... This post was just showing the difference in maneuverability, no about manning and plan B and all the other complaints voiced here. I've only been on this forum for less than a year and just about every post ends up going off topic and bashing the fire service for all the problems there are. News Flash - The general public has access to this forum, it's not a password protected spot. When they read it and, more importantly, when the town fathers and managers read this they must think "what a bunch of lunk heads. No need worrying about them at town meeting because they can't agree on anything and don't get along with each other."
 
Open discussion is good when done in a positive way. But the negative comments and the Monday Morning Quarterbacking on this forum is ridiculous.
 
Getting back to the post: It was a very good video which I learned a lot from in 2 1/2 minutes. Yes, there are different types of ladders with advantages and disadvantages to all of them and that's a good and valid discussion.  FireMedic049, thanks for explaining how the tiller becomes more of a tractor-trailer than a straight stick when the rear wheels are locked. Something else I just learned.
 
Anyway, have at it boys, I've got better things to do!

I know this will rustle the feathers of many, but think about it in terms of police. YES, Police. If a police officer is returning from training in another jurisdiction and comes across an accident, a robbery, or swerving drunk-driver, they will call it in to the either their dispatch or the jurisdiction the call is in and then render appropriate action until the arrival of the appropriate jurisdiction. The same thing would happen if they were near their own town line and saw something happen in the next jurisdiction. The questions are what did you know, when did you know it and what did you do about it? If the answer comes back to being reasonable, then I'm all for acting.
 
As a few have pointed out, the Scarsdale incident isn't very clear as to what happened. Eastchester could have very well been out on their own smoke investigation and come across the fire.  If so, report it to the jurisdiction having authority by common radio frequency or your own dispatch and then render aid in a reasonable manner until the "home team" shows up.
 
As for any incident near a town line, I would expect that if the FDNY were out on a smoke investigation near the Yonkers city line and they came to the Westchester border and saw smoke coming out of a building and some mother out front frantically running around that they would respond and do what they could do to assist until Yonkers showed up. If I were the FDNY Battalion Chief I would initiate operations, possibly make a rescue, and when Yonkers showed up I would go to the first arriving officer and say, "FDNY is on location, we have 2 engines and 1 ladder working. We rescued a child from floor 2. We have 1 line stretched in operation on the 1st floor. This is your city and your incident - you are in-charge, what can we do to help you?" If the Yonkers officer said continue operations and we'll stretch a back-up line I'd appreciate it. Once our troops arrive we'll try to kick you free ASAP" then I'd stay and do what was REASONABLE and respect the Yonkers officer's decision. If (I don't think Yonkers would do this) he said, "This is our fire and get out of our city" then I'd say, "Fine, pack-it up boys and let's hit the road. Good-luck!" 
 
This is not rocket-science. It's about what and when you became aware of something and then what did you do about it and was the action REASONABLE to do. Working together is a wonderful thing!!

Very discouraging... This post was just showing the difference in maneuverability, no about manning and plan B and all the other complaints voiced here. I've only been on this forum for less than a year and just about every post ends up going off topic and bashing the fire service for all the problems there are. News Flash - The general public has access to this forum, it's not a password protected spot. When they read it and, more importantly, when the town fathers and managers read this they must think "what a bunch of lunk heads. No need worrying about them at town meeting because they can't agree on anything and don't get along with each other."
 
Open discussion is good when done in a positive way. But the negative comments and the Monday Morning Quarterbacking on this forum is ridiculous.
 
Getting back to the post: It was a very good video which I learned a lot from in 2 1/2 minutes. Yes, there are different types of ladders with advantages and disadvantages to all of them and that's a good and valid discussion.  FireMedic049, thanks for explaining how the tiller becomes more of a tractor-trailer than a straight stick when the rear wheels are locked. Something else I just learned.
 
Anyway, have at it boys, I've got better things to do!

For the most part, I agree with your message, but have a few thoughts and questions....
 
1) Was the Eastchester Captain in charge of the whole shift at the time of the incident or just the station nearest the incident?
 
2) Are Eastchester and Scarsdale on the same dispatch channel?
 
3) I'm not familiar with the area, but if the map at the beginning of the thread is accurate, it looks like the location of the fire is very close to the Eastchester/Scarsdale border and possibly within sight of the Eastchester station.  As such, I could easily see a situation where Eastchester units started to the incident thinking it could possibly be in their area, particularly if they aren't on the same dispatch channel.
 
4) The media is notorious for misreporting, misrepresenting or misquoting things.  As such, their statement of what happened may not fully represent what actually happened.
 
5) I have some difficulty with the use of the term "freelancing" in this particular context.  My understanding of the definition for freelancing is essentially doing a task or taking an action without communication or coordination of such.  There's a fair bit of detail about this not readily available to draw informed conclusions, but in general, I wouldn't consider investigating signs of a possible fire nearby to be freelancing, even if doing so happened to take you a couple blocks into the next town.  Once on scene, as the initial arriving unit(s), as long as they communicated that they were on scene, going to work and subsequently worked within whatever command structure that was established, I wouldn't necessarily call that freelancing and wouldn't necessarily call it operating without accountability.

Very discouraging... This post was just showing the difference in maneuverability, no about manning and plan B and all the other complaints voiced here. I've only been on this forum for less than a year and just about every post ends up going off topic and bashing the fire service for all the problems there are. News Flash - The general public has access to this forum, it's not a password protected spot. When they read it and, more importantly, when the town fathers and managers read this they must think "what a bunch of lunk heads. No need worrying about them at town meeting because they can't agree on anything and don't get along with each other."
 
Open discussion is good when done in a positive way. But the negative comments and the Monday Morning Quarterbacking on this forum is ridiculous.
 
Getting back to the post: It was a very good video which I learned a lot from in 2 1/2 minutes. Yes, there are different types of ladders with advantages and disadvantages to all of them and that's a good and valid discussion.  FireMedic049, thanks for explaining how the tiller becomes more of a tractor-trailer than a straight stick when the rear wheels are locked. Something else I just learned.
 
Anyway, have at it boys, I've got better things to do!

If I'm not mistaken, the feature that you are describing allows the rear steer axle to be locked and this allows the vehicle to be operated with a single driver, but it's more like driving a tractor-trailer than a straight ladder.

 

Acceptable, NO.  Unfortunate reality for many, YES.
 
Yes, but I bet that a 2 man crew arriving quickly, followed by an additional 2 man crew (or more) a couple of minutes after also outperformed a single 2 man crew and probably did at least as well as that 4 man crew arriving together minutes later.

While certainly not ideal, a competent and experienced crew of two arriving quickly can have a positive effect on many incidents rather than a unit with more staffing arriving a few or several minutes later.
 
I've spent the majority of my career (the paid part) working on an engine staffed with only 2.  We've been able to have 3 at times over the last few years.  Several years ago now, we had a 2 man crew arrive first at a working fire and execute a ladder rescue of a trapped victim prior to arrival of other units.  That gentleman knows what the point would be.  You'd be surprised at what we've accomplished at some incidents. 

I understand that mutual aid plans around the county (heck, around the state) are either broken or just strange, but there are some good plans out there.  The airport has an overkill plan for an Alert 1 (Light General Aviation Aircraft, generally carrying 4-6 souls): 3 engines, 1 ladder, 2 rescues, 3 ambulances, and 1 tanker, all from the overlapping districts surrounding the aiport.
 
I only point this out because there is a way to make mutual aid work.  It involves working with your neighboring departments and determining what you can do for each other in a myriad of incidents.  Department A has a heavy rescue, Department B has a boat, Department C has a tower ladder....you get the picture.  If you plan your "what if" moments appropriately, you won't get the "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" from everyone else, AND you get the job done!  The above airport response for light GA is because some serious sh#t can happen with what seemingly could be a simple crash but is actually something quite significant (think a single engine Cessna rolls off the end of the runway and hits a fuel truck filled with 9,000 gallons of JetA).  I am by no means saying that we should activate the cavalry on every call or directly upgrading every structure fire to a second alarm to get extra resources, rather just to say to plan appropriately.
 
**Yes, I know the airport does not give mutual aid back to the county, but that is a discussion for another day.**

 
Assuming that another rig with more staffing was on its way, a rig with two is still better than none.  Establishing continuous water supply, throwing ladders to a known point of entrapment, extended walk around and size-up to the remaining incoming units, among many other activities can be completed by a crew of two and if nothing else, they're geared up and immediately fill out the "two in two out" requirement when the next arriving apparatus marks up. 

This may be a little off topic, but in addition to this article, I saw an article about a watchdog group that wants FDNY to basically re-structure the whole department and put EMT's and Paramedics on engines and/or ladders. The above article talks about EMS Fly Cars with medics. I have an opinion and a question:
 
First I believe it would be very difficult to make the engines in the FDNY paramedic engines. You'd have to outfit all the rigs with the medic supplies and I believe it would lead to crew instability. If it were to happen and a medic from the engine were to go to the hospital they'd be down one person. Also how easy would it be to get that person back to the fire station from the hospital if the ambulance were backed up on calls. And if the medic was a Lieutenant or Captain and had to go to the hospital on a high priority call, who becomes the officer on the engine? If this were to ever be done, a huge amount of rethinking and reshaping the whole FDNY fire and ems service would need to take place. It wouldn't be a "flip the switch" and off you go.
 
My question is about the difference between EMT training and First Responder training in New York State? What is the level of care that an EMT can give as compared to a First Responder without an ambulance to transport? Where I come from, EMT's basically get additional training in packaging and transporting patients with the ambulance. If a First Responder were to show up at a scene with the exact medical kit that an EMT had, they could offer the same level of care (O2, AED, EPI Pen, bleeding control, gather history and medications). The EMT gets additional training in splinting and moving a patient and ambulance transport protocol. Is NY State the same? If the skill level for a First Responder and EMT is the same for initial care and NOT transport, would it be fiscally prudent to have all firefighters (10,000+) trained to the level of EMT when in reality they are just doing First Responder work?  Let me end by saying that if an EMT in NY can do much more than a First Responder, then by all means upgrade them to EMTs. but it would still be a large undertaking with more training requirements, recertifications and money spent.
 
Here's the article about the watchdog group:
http://www.ufanyc.org/cmslist/admin/contents/view/23070
 

The Major Injury call type is a BLS call in NYC as is Ped Struck and MVAs without more info.  I think this is based on the fact that the vast majority turn out to be BLS and there are limited ALS resources.  There are probably too many call types so and amputation and a long fall would get ALS.  They're moving to a new triaging system and they're attempting to work on the miss-classification.   
 
As to the IV interventions in trauma patients study after study shows this does not help and may actually harm the patient.  It really bugs me when I see transport delayed for it.  Anecdotally I find the experienced medics that I see and who I would like treating me if I was hurt bad never delay transport.  It's the same as the young guy on the roof who's going to cut the hole no matter what compared with the experienced firefighter who knows when it's time to leave or a lost cause.  

 
Good question, one that I don't have a definitive answer to.  However, I can say that EMS runs are coded 1-9.  Engine Co's are dispatched on all 1-3 coded runs.  Those are: Arrests (cardiac and resp.), all cardiac and resp. distress calls, major injury/bleeding and obstetric emergencies.  Grouped in there would be runs related to Seizures, Unresponsive, ect..
 
Eng. Co's should only respond to runs when Medics are assigned, with the exception being car accidents/trauma runs.  So, I'd assume that the Fly Cars are assigned in a similar manner to Engines.  Any run that would normally get two busses (one ALS, one BLS) is eligible to have a fly car replace the ALS bus that would normally be assigned.
 
I did work a few days ago for a cardiac arrest run.  The first unit to arrive after my engine was a fly car.  The medics began working up the patient while we continued CPR, ventilations, ect.  The BLS unit arrived some minutes later with a scoop, ect.  They tranasported.

The medic on the fire engine idea was/is something that they've been toying around with for a while. It would probably start off as a pilot program or something. A lot of the logic is that they have a lot of paramedics and emts that came from FDNY Ems and after looking at their last promotion exam recently I'm assuming they anticipate a high number to continue coming over. The logistics of that I can't comment on with much certainty, but from what I was told these medics would not be transporting . Think of a "first response paramedic" . A regular ALS crew would be transporting . (On a side note, why would they pay a FF or in this care FF/medic, to staff an ambulance or do anything with transporting when they can pay a regular paramedic 1/2 the money to do so. Not saying medics don't deserve more , but financially it doesn't make sense). This is like.... at least a 5-10 year plan. They're just throwing around ideas and thinking of ways to utilize the people, a lot of which they trained in THeIR paramedic program, who come over to fire. Also, it would have to be hashed out with the unions (both fire and EMS). 
 
The difference or benefit of having an EMT on an engine VS a CFR ? Response times. I may be wrong, I'm not a "legal issues in the fire service " buff, but I'm almost positive they can't "stop the clock" for having a CFR on scene. If an emt on an engine is on scene , the clock stops when THEY go 10-84, not the ambulance , unless of course the bus is on scene first (10-91, one of the greatest things you can see on the computer ever!). It's all about response times, and their ability to say "we were on scene in 3:10".
 
but medically yes, there isn't much more an emt can do than a CFR kind of. Epi albuterol splitting aspirin etc just a few things but not much more. 

Ardsley (NY) Police Department New Car 96 2017 Ford Police Interceptor SUV Featuring New Graphics Scheme  

There is more positive news to report regarding the Fractured Fire Service of Norwich.
 
A SECOND incident in another Fire District (Yantic FD) brought the Norwich Firefighters to the address of 114 West Town St per the Yantic Fire Commander.
 
The Norwich FD responded as the FAST CO, with a Truck consisting of one Lt and three Firefighters (All Norwich FFs are trained in FAST Co Operations). A total distance of 2.9 miles.  Something that has NEVER happened.
 
This is a FIRST for the Yantic FD and there is no doubt that they did the right thing. Just as another Volunteer Fire District did, the East Great Plains FD, when they had a working fire recently.
 
 I believe full credit goes to Norwich City Manager, John Salamone. He took the time to listen when no other city officials did. He apparently realized that a fire department from some 8 or 15 miles away can NOT be called before the much closer, 24 hour staffed Norwich FD.
 
 This has been two years in the making which involved some very serious incidents. This entire campaign began with a grease fire two years ago at a nursing home located at 93 West Town St. Just down the street from this current incident. In that incident the Norwich FD was never called. However, three other unstaffed, volunteer fire departments were called from farther away.  
 
 I would like to think that this story is over. I hope that the two recent examples involving the East Great Plains and Yantic FDs will end this long on going nightmare. The Citizens of this city need to come first, not how some fire dept feels about each other.
 
 Tonight (2/8/2017), there is reason to be proud of these FDs within the City of Norwich, Ct.

This is just a general statement about the fire service but I think this thread touches on it. Whether volunteer or paid, the fire service is suffering from a severe manpower shortage everywhere. Many cities run with barebone minimums due to budget problems and volunteers have trouble recruting due to the two income economy we find ourselves in. 25 years ago, departments would take it as a personal insult if they weren't called to a fire in the next town over. 

This is just a general statement about the fire service but I think this thread touches on it. Whether volunteer or paid, the fire service is suffering from a severe manpower shortage everywhere. Many cities run with barebone minimums due to budget problems and volunteers have trouble recruting due to the two income economy we find ourselves in. 25 years ago, departments would take it as a personal insult if they weren't called to a fire in the next town over. 

Yes that's it exactly 

Date: 02/04/2017
Time: 14:52
Location: 90 Morgan St
District: SFD-5 (Woodside)
Channel: Ground 2, SPD Main
Weather: 33 / Mostly sunny
Units: SFD: E5, E1, T1, R1, E2 (Haz Mat), U4 (IC), U6 (Safety)
          SPD: 44 (South Hold), 28 (West Hold), 10 (Hold Sergeant), 4B46
Writer:  AFS1970

Description: Car rolled into side of building, shearing off the gas main to medical office building. E5 reported a major gas leak, Special Call for Safety Officer. Eversource (Gas Company) requested Priority 1. SFD activated fire alarm to evacuate building. Gas main shut off & companies checking for further leaks on interior & exterior. SPD cars designated as hold units are in service during shift change for emergency calls but do not use normal beat designations only car numbers.

Thanks for clarifying.