firemoose827

Like already mentioned by a few posters here, its about the maturity level and what your reasons are for being a volunteer. I am sickened to say this but most volunteers join for the glory, the front page picture, the awards ceremonies and pats on the back, the chance to wear that T-Shirt with all sorts of FD logo's and one-liners, and the real reason for going to the call is forgotten. My reason for responding to calls is the chance to help someone in need. I take the training so that when the pager goes off, I can do smething to help that person. The only thing I care about is getting help to them as soon as possible, filling the seats on the engine and responding to the call, regardless if my a** is in one of those seats or not. If someone else is in the truck and its rolling, fine, I could care less if I am on the truck, I just care that help is on its way. I RARELY turn on my blue light and quite honestly I dont even know if it still works. I drive to the station like I would for meeting night, unless I am closer to the scene and no other officers have called on air yet, then I will call on air and respond to the scene to do a size-up, and even then, as a line officer responding to the scene I still drive with due regard and only use my light on the main roads.

Too many people let their adrenaline take charge of their bodies instead of using their brains, their training, and common sense.

This is the one that gives us some heartburn when M/A shows up with "extra" helpers. We're fortunate that we can count on most of our M/A companies sending adequate numbers of interior firefighters, but the extra exterior firefighters often don't have an officer and or a true company assignment. 95% of the time this isn't a real issue, they help out where they can, but our fear is that they've never been properly accounted for.

As has been pointed out, and is especially true in this time of austere budgets, having a see of Nomex and shiny reflectors gives the public a vision that we have tons of firefighters basically standing around, leading them to believe staffing cuts are viable. Maybe these exterior folks need some sort of visual indicator that shows they're not fully classified firefighters? I know our State Labor Dept is always interested in how the IC can tell the difference between the various "levels" of FD responders, a real problem in most places where the system allows for less than fully qualified firefighters.

I have heard of the term "Fire Patrol" before, and have heard of this type of unit used in the city before, do they still use them? I remember reading a book about FDNY and reading about the "Fire Patrol" guys that do stuff like salvage work and assisting at scenes with filling bottles, is this accurate?

If so, what about a title like this used for volunteer departments for exterior "helpers", and have "Fire Patrol" or some other tltle on their gear? Maybe even issue them jump suits and work gloves and construction helmets instead of turnouts, so while they are putting ladders up, moving hose around for MPO's or setting up portable tanks, picking up hose, or even doing some salvage work like boarding up windows and doors after the call they are both properly identified and protected for the work they are doing.

My area is a nightmare for mutual aid. I have responded to the firehouse before (in my old dept) for a mutual aid structure fire, and as I am pulling into the station the rescue truck is responding. So I think to myself they have a full crew...wrong. They end up getting asked on the radio by the IC how many interiors they have and the driver says "One, with 3 explorers and 2 fire police.........." Our chief ended up ripping them a new southern region hole and it was mandated thereafter to have a crew of no less than 5 interior qualified firefighters when responding the rescue to a mutual aid fire.

I have seen engines with seating for 5 leave the station with a driver and one firefighter with other firefighters just arriving at the station, instead of waiting they leave...why? Because they are so excited to get to the fire they just go...if anyone wants to know the reason why career guys dont call us for mutual aid there is a prime example, and I think they are 110% correct and support them completely. Instead of using common sense, some of us volunteers let the adrenaline take over and they dont think before reacting.

In my department now, its the same rule; when we are called for manpower mutual aid to a working fire, our rescue is not to leave without at least 4 interior firefighters in the back.

Otherwise, our engine/tanker, and engine are 2 seaters, so they are required to have the driver and at least one member to assist the operator for mutual aid calls, and for our own calls the engine needs an interior firefighter on board.

I see the issue with the career guys calling for mutual aid from other career departments farther away and agree; they are leaving certain departments on their borders alone so they still have someone to call if another fire or major incident should happen...it should be a no brainer and I would actually see it as a complement to the department that they trust us to respond to other fires while they are working the first. You need to think about the big picture. These city departments usually have a lot of calls, if they were to use up all of the surrounding departments for one call, than the initial responding unit to the secondary call would have a big response time which could mean the difference between saving a life or not, or saving the house as well.

We have had this discussion before, and I made a comment about having a career department get together with their neighboring volunteer department for training purposes, so the career chief knows what the volunteer department has as far as trained interior firefighters, and the firefighters all get to work together and know the strengths and weaknesses of each department. But a valid response was made in regard to the career department having to use OT in order to have all members come in for the drill with the volunteer department, and another about insurance coverage. I understand that now, but still feel that maybe the chief from the career department and his on-duty crew could meet with them one night and discuss things, and maybe get a feel for what the volunteer department has to offer? I feel that would be better than just simply giving up on the volunteer departments help alltogether.

Just my thoughts and opinions though. I understand completely the need for trained backup and see why a career brother/sister would be weary about having an unknown volunteer crawling down behind him...will they have his back? Will they know what he will do to attack the fire and know best how to support him? Probably not. I have argued the lack of training in the volunteer side for years now and agree completely that we need a state mandate to increase our requirements for training standards. Until then, I will just continue to train as much as I can.

Stay Safe.

Moose, that's where you need to get your county coordinators and emergency management folks involved to find out who has what and make sure those run cards are updated.

This is also where NIMS can be used effectively. FEMA has resource typing guidelines you can download to standardize what is an "Engine Company" or a "Truck Company" etc. This ensures everyone is on the same page when it comes to whose responding with what.

Thank you Sage, I am going to attempt to set up a meeting, but trying to set up a meeting and actually getting people to attend and participate is another whole story! lol

I was thinking of alarms, second alarm, third alarm etc, bu it my area its tough to do with fire districts and village fire departments. We could pre-plan for a 2nd alarm consisting of tankers and manpower from the next 2 closest available departments, and a 3rd bringing the same resources from the next two departments I guess. Might confuse and confound at first but everything new around me always does at first, but when they get used to it things settle down. (Until the next guy stirs the pot)

My county has the County Fire Coordinators who respond to any fire involving mutual aid. As everyone knows its the responsibility of these coordinators to "coordinate" mutual aid, fill in empty fire stations for coverage, and get whatever resources the IC is calling for to the scene, so the IC does not need to worry about it. But...I feel that the issue with who do you call for mutual aid extends to every sector, not just like you mentioned between a volunteer and paid department.

I will usually go to the station if I hear a neighboring department get toned for a major fire, whether its a structure or brush, and I will start the tanker, get gear ready, and wait for the call...that usually never comes...Why? Because they call for the department that has more of their "Buddies" in it, or think our department does not have what they need.

I feel there is a need to pre-plan the mutual aid you would need and let the coordinators, or even the dispatchers (if you set it up ahead of time with call cards or mutual aid tickets, whatever your county uses) call the closest, appropriate department to assist you. Too many IC's in my area call for the departments they "want" instead of the closest department, and it makes no sense. I have been to county training classes and overheard people talking during breaks, and saying some pretty nasty things about their neighboring department and that they would never call them for mutual aid. Im disgusted.

Im a fairly new officer, with only about 4-5 years as line officer for 3 different departments (fire) and 5 years experience as line officer and captain for an EMS agency. When I respond to a call and find that I am first officer on scene and I am unsure about who would be closest, I generally ask for "The nearest available unit" to respond mutual aid. With the CAD systems today, that have the GIS capability and mileage from department to department its fairly easy for a dispatcher to find the closest department. Otherwise, I try to know my district and know who would be closer, and who would have the most direct route to the scene because there is one factor you need to think about in areas like mine, and thats how many mountains do they have to drive over, how many seasonal roads that might be closed or open, and what the roads are like between them and the scene. There are lots of winding curving steep hilly roads in my area and driving tankers over them is a nightmare. One department may be closer, but they would have to drive over rough hilly roads to get there whereas the next closest department may have a clear drive down a main road with just a few minutes extra drive time. In these cases, I ask for both to respond.

There was a major main street fire in the district just to the south of us, a 10 minute drive from our station to the fire, and I sat at the station and watched them call every department around us, and they never called us. They called 2 departments that were 20-25 minutes away and never called us. We had 5 interior firefighters plus drivers for both our tanker and our engine but they never called...untill the end of the fire when they needed help to pick up hose. Think that was a slap in the face?

I agree, mutual aid needs to be set up in advance and agreed upon by chief officers and county officials like the coordinators. I am thinking about setting up a meeting with the area fire chiefs and the coordinators to set something up for our department, if anyone has advice or ideas shoot them out, I would appreciate it.

X129K

This guy is acting like it's his first fire...Your my hero, bringing animals back to life.

But seriously, good job glad you finally caught some work.

Good job 129k. House saved? If so great stop too.

This is quite shocking, the whole situation. I'm asking myself "is this really happening?" It's surreal. ny10570 who we now know his name is Lenny Joyner, see his photo on the Denver news story, has been a regular productive member of this board for years. We know his political leanings, his compassion for others, his decency....yet most of us didn't know him personally.

I wish I had.

To those members here who had the honor of knowing him, condolences to you all. We all share in your grief.

For all of us here who care, who feel, please take care of yourselves now. Don't be tempted to grab the beers or anything else to drown the pain away.

Talk about it. Write about it. Share your feelings with those of us here who care for you and want you to be okay. That's what this site is about. A Fraternity of sorts. Times like these are the most testing for everybody. Talk about it at the firehouse, the precinct, the ambulance quarters.

Lenny got called home to God way too early, yet he obviously died doing what he wanted to be doing. Living his life the way he wanted it to be. Quite an adventurist it seems. I imagine he was quite ecstatic to reach that peak, to see that view, to be closer to his God.

Our board has another hero now. And his name is Lenny Joyner. God Rest In Peace.

Edit: Last name proper spelling.

I Couldnt have worded it any better and felt the same way, so I salute this post and agree whole heartedly. Rest In Peace to the brother I never had the honor of meeting.

Had an idea Brothers and Sisters. How about we revisit Lenny's last post and rep it as high as we can. I'm out of rep points for the day but I promise you tomorrow I'll be on it.......

http://www.emtbravo....043#entry268043

I did just that and will hope to see everyone else do the same.

Thoughts and prayers to his family and friends, I hope they find peace and comfort in their time of need.

Seth,

Sorry to hear about your medical and personal issues brother. I sincerely hope they have fixed whatever you are suffering from and have no further issues.

If there is anything I can do to help you or the site let me know, Im sure I can help being a past moderator.

Good luck on finding a new job and a place to live, and I hope you are joined by your family soon.

Keep us posted.

Moose

Excellent articles, thank you for sharing. I have a drill scheduled for ventilation and coordinated attack coming up soon at my FD and this info along with any new findings from the FDNY tests will help make it more informative. I also have a friendly argument with an assistant chief who is adamantly against straight stream nozzles and prefers fog nozzles. I agree but I always play devils advocate and stir him up every time the discussion happens at our station .

Do you offer financing???

Thats a great camera, If I could afford it I would buy it, but sadly I am married...

Did anybody ever consider the fire started above the bedrooms in the attic? It could burn up there undetected for quite some time before a failure of the trusses brought a collapse into the living area of the home. How many of you have smoke detectors in your attic? The term fully involved is used quite a bit and misused a lot more. If fire was showing from only upper windows and the roof was burned through you make your own conclussion. I was not there and I will thank God for that. My thoughts to Capt Sullivan and his family and the entire Carmel community.

Sad, very Sad - Another way smoking kills Carmel fire: Thomas Sullivan Jr.'s discarded cigarette ash sparked blaze that killed family; no charges filed http://www.lohud.com...|text|Frontpage

Where I work, there was a house fire that killed 4 people in a Developmental Disability home, and the fire was caused by a cigarette put out in the mulch bed alongside the house, and it spread into the house up the siding and into the soffit just like this fire. It ran the whole attic before finally being noticed but by the time the staff could do anything the ceiling collapsed on some people. Today, we are pushing for heat detectors to be installed in all attic spaces and the installation of NFPA 13 "R" style residential sprinkler systems. We are also pushing for all fire alarm systems to be addressable to a central station monitoring agency. We use the Life Safety Code often as well.

I hope that eventually contractors will see the light and think more about safety, and homeowners as well, the costs of installing a sprinkler system is nothing compared to saving the life of a family member and saving your home as well...

My mistake, the point was FDNY can make arrests and has guns, we don't have too many Peace Officers in CT so I'm not 100% familiar with the term.

So basically what you're saying is many towns in NY don't even have a Fire Marshal. My followup question is who does Certificates of Occupancy, plan review, etc as it relates to fire safety. The Building Dept? You mentioned the local FD, I can't imagine local volunteer (and probably even some career) fire departments are trained or qualified to do that in-depth of an inspection.

Does NY State have any certification process for Fire officials who have inspection duties? How about investigators?

Yes, the CO's and inspections are handled by Codes Enforcement Officials through the local Village/Town/City building departments. NYS has just recently had its pilot training course offered at the Fire Academy for Level I Fire Inspector which was offered to a special group of members from both OFPC and OPWDD Fire Safety Representatives.

As far as fire investigations, yes, the fire chief is responsible to determine the cause of every fire, in some instances with the assistance of the local county fire investigation teams. My counties is all volunteer, and have a mixed membership of county firefighters, sherrifs officers and state troopers all trained as NYS Level One Fire Investigators (Some have higher qualifications including our county deputy fire marshal who happens to be my assistant chief). We use the State Trooper Labarotory for any evidence analysis that needs to be done.

Maybe I misled/mispoke with the "non-transporting first responder" thing. No. We are just a fire dept that happens to run a fair amount of mva's. We are NOT (any more) a BLSFR agency. So, no, we do not have a medical director.

Correct me if I am wrong, and this is a sincere question for all and not a jab at 50-65;

If you provide medical aid to patients, are'nt you required to be a certified BLSFR agency with a medical director? It sounds to me like you guys are providing aid to patients, so you should all be at least a basic EMT, and be required to be a certified response agency for legal reasons. Thanks in advance for all your input.

I have always relied on friends that work in the local ER as nurses, or ER Technicians. If they go to other hospitals we rarely find out anything about their condition unless we ask a nurse or doc during another call when we get tot he ED. Most will tell us basic info so we know, but you will get the strict people who refuse to give out info, which is understandable in todays litigious society all suing each other. But most understand that we are just caring first responders who want to know if our patients made it or not.

EMTBravo gets a TON of search hits. EMTBravo is EMTBravo, and people know what it is. I've presented changing the name in the past, and members overwhelmingly opposed it. And the name is part of the heritage of this site. Changing names would have little effect, I believe.

The other point here that I feel should be made is that a lot of the membership comes from outside of Westchester County, so naming it "Westchester Emergency Services" would fail to include the members as a group and just make reference to those that are from there. I feel this site has gone farther than alot of us think, and we are growing daily.

I also agree, EMTBravo is the name that brought Seth and the originals this far, might as well keep it that way.

I agree with most of what you posted here efdcapt115 and feel it was very well put and professional. Your posts definitely reflect your expereince and knowledge in the fire service and its posts like yours from respected MOS like you that I look forward to reading every day, thank you and I hope you keep it up for those of us that want to learn.

Stay Safe.

I just think they want to make this site something that it will never be. It is what it is....a buff site. Not a training site...not a cutting edge tech site...it's a buff site that "used" to have good posters with lots of knowledge and experience that we COULD learn from..if we wanted to. I know personally I have.

Amen to that. I have always believed that this was a buff site first and tactical site second. Obvious the mods want it the other way but I harken back to the days when it was buff site and apparatus and fire scene photos flowed like water instead of the barren desert of scene bashing and light harping that it has currently become. Maybe it was not what the mods wanted, but at least it was a community. Now we are just a bunch of people who post and hope they havent kicked the hornets nest.

Like the line under your handle reads...I too "miss the OLD bravo..."

If someone wants to expand on their idea they are allowed to, thats why we are in america, you are free to do what you want (within the law). If you guys dont like it, and you are perfectly entitled to your opinions, than you can always leave. Yet here you are, posting on every topic that is made on the forums, complaining about the posts and the members...

Guys...If you like the pictures and the IA's than stick with them, go and have your wet dreams while looking at pictures of fires and trucks, and dont post in the forums. (And I sincerely hope you are reading this post in 'Firehouse Kitchen Table Mode' and not taking it seriously because I respect the both of you and look forward to your posts.) Honestly, this is what upsets me the most...going on to Bravo quick during my lunch break only to see countless bashes about the site, from the SAME people, who are obviously unhappy about the changes to the site and the way things are moderated here. I want to read quality posts that enlighten, expand your mind and leave you thinking about things, or make you want to join the discussion in a positive way.

But with all of these posts about the site, the owner, the moderators, and how its run...it feels like a dam junior high cafeteria instead of the firehouse kitchen table.

Stick with what you like about the site the most and let the rest of us do the same and quit complaining...

(see the smiley faces gang? This was meant to be in fun and make you all hopefully see what you are doing so we can get back to what the site is here for...thank you...have a good day...anyone watch the Ranger/Devils game the other night? )

I personally have not had it happen yet, we're still training with them and trying to figure out their weaknesses. It was something that was brought up by one of the Chiefs training us on the equipment, but I haven't gotten enough time to re-create that problem myself. Let me know if you do.

Its funny you guys mention this. We just purchased a new Scott Eagle Attack TIC, and the salesman came out last Monday night to give us our training on the unit. We found out that our portable radios cause interference with this unit, it makes the screen freeze in some instances, and in others it goes fuzzy...BIG issue. The portables were about a foot away from the units when this happened. Is this a Scott Brand issue I wonder?

We keep ours in the radio pocket on the turnout coats, and we also have the mic clip attachment above the pocket to keep the mic from falling and dangling. My biggest thing is the entanglement issue, I used to use the leather radio case with strap and just clipped the mic to the strap near my shoulder and this would always fall off and get caught on things.

Heres an idea for you air pack manufacturing people, start thinking of an integrated radio pocket on the straps of the air packs with mic pockets as well to protect the radio from damage and still be able to use easily enough. (Just make sure I get a percentage of the profits when you get rich from my idea!! )

Good luck to your son during his service!

I would love to see a change and would work with any group collectively to start the ball rolling.

I for one am tired of the argument between agencies...agencies who are supposed to be focused on the same thing, the person calling for help.

Speaking fo myself, I do not, nor have I ever looked upon the career brothers/sisters with disdain. I look UP to them for advice and knowledge.

I definitely do not look at the PD with any disdain either, in fact, its a known fact that when they show up to violent scenes with violent patients threatening the lives of our EMS crew I am the first one to hide behind them and then proceed to kiss their feet...(hey, they have the guns, not me!)

Each one of us are an important link in the emergency services chain and need to band together to be effective; any one part of that chain becomes broken or separate and you get nothing.

At work, I cooperate with the State OFPC and work with them in the field. We trained together and formed some tight bonds, as a result we work together and get the job done, we share info with each other and offer assistance which makes it easier to do our jobs, protecting the Developmentaly Disabled who can not speak for themselves and rely on others to protect them. We screw up and some defensless person(s) perish.

I often wonder the same thing; why can we not band together in emergency services as we have banded together at my job?? Why can we not see the overall picture and try to achieve the same goals instead of trying to improve our images and standing over the others? Kinda feels like junior high all over again but instead of the Jocks, Nerds, and Punks you have Firefighters, EMS, and law enforcement all bullying each other...

Im ready for change.

Great thread and hopefully it doesnt get bumped out of importance by a thread dedicated to "whats in your turnouts?" or "what kind of light bar do you use?"

Great idea and I hope it helps them out.

This is similar to our day time mutual aid plan with the 3 mutual aid departments that border us, we are toned out simultaneously for all fire calls in our district from the hours of 6AM-6PM, and the first unit on scene handles the call. The first officer on scene is IC regardless if they are from our mutual aid dept or not. We are getting equipment on scene faster this way WITH enough manpower to handle the call as well, and no ones ego gets in the way.

We have 2.5 staffed ambulances and 8 staffed fire apparatus. It is often less of a problem for FD to be there and in most cases the call lasts less than 10 minutes.

As Antiquefire points out, you cant bill for these (or risk losing your medicare payments). So thats not an issue.

Since all our firefighters are EMT's. We expect them to medically clear the person 1st, then pick them up. It is very rare that we need transport equipment and we have it or if really needed we can call for an ambulance. normally we only need it if they are injured and need to be transported to the hospital.

A very good point and we do take advantage of that.

Another advantage is many of our lifts require forcible entry, which EMS would need us for. Even better is in many multiple dwellings we have Knox Boxes....So the FD has the keys to get in. This is particularly true in all our highrise Sr. Citizen buildings.

Finally, we have a patient assist system that our crews can document the situation and is forwarded to the Office for the aging (and others). This has reduced repeat calls, gotten meals on wheels and home health care services, in some cases special medical equipment and sometimes placement in long term facilities.

I had one call for a person who was on the floor, he had a helth care aid, but was to big for them to lift him. We found no injuries, lifted him back into bed and noticed many cigarette burns in the bedding. I reported it, thru the system and they were able to get the health care service to keep the cigarettes away from the bedroom.

The fall was incidental, but the other was going to create a big issue.

Agreed that not all situations will call for the equipment to assist with the lift and movement of the patient, but I am sure a respected officer like you knows the emergency scene is a constantly dynamic thing, always changing and new techniques are being created everyday to do the routine things. A simple thing like a scoop stretcher can be invaluable for the 300 pound man lying on the bathroom floor with little room to maneuver, allowing the crew to get the scoop under him and use the handles to lift him up and then carry him back to bed, as opposed to trying to lift him with other means.

But then again a simple thing like a blanket can help out with a large person as well, depending on the situation at hand. I feel (In my area) that with all three agencies responding to some of the calls we have, you get that mixed variety of experience and styles and tools and techniques that can easily be used in most situations.

In my old department, we had the village PD respond with us to all calls in the village, fire or EMS, so they can secure a scene, offer assistance with patients, control any crowds, or be an extra pair of hands. But most of the EMS crews were smaller, older people who couldnt lift, and with only one, possibly two village PD officers you would still need the extra help from FD for lift assists.

The FD that covers my grandparents house are excellent, my grandparents are always falling and require help back up into their chairs, so their chief responds to the scene with the EMS crew and helps them lift, every time they get called there, and being that I live 20 minutes away from them that makes me feel good to know they do things like that. I guess that should be what matters though, and not who is helping or how they are doing it.

Ironically, my FD had a lift assist last night with our EMS crew at 3AM, my back is sore today, but we had a large crew show up to help, had to turn a few away at the door.

It should definitely be EMS.. like the previous poster said more often than not there are underlying reasons for the person being incappacitated. Also, EMS can evaluate any potential injuries that the patient recieved while falling.

Even if it means taking a rig (and a medic if in Northern Westchester) to a lift assist when they could be responding to a more serious calls (e.g. cardiac arrest or a MVA)? Taking 1 of the 3 medics to respond to a lift assisnt is a waste, IMO, unless there is a need for pain management. I've never been to a lift assist, so maybe I shouldn't be talking, but I'm just looking for clarification and opinions.

I would agree, and add the fire department for the extra hands.

EMS will not only evaluate for injuries, they also have more specialised patient transport equipment on the rig such as a scoop stretcher, stair chair, REEVES stretchers and all of that, and have more training in moving patients with the least possibility of further injuring them or the rescuers. Up by me it is generally the EMS crews that call for the lift assist from the FD and PD because a lot of the EMS vollies around here are either older, or have bad backs, and cant lift without help, so they call FD, the PD usually respond with the EMS crews for scene safety and to help out anyway.

But again, its a simple fact of, after the patient is cleared medically by EMS and is given the ok to be moved, it all boils down to who has the strongest backs and who gets there the fastest, right?

The ho-hum spring cleaning detail forced upon me by my lady, lead me to locate this by sheer coincidence this morning, in a box of paperwork stored in the closet! It's a sign!

That was an awesome playoffs in '94, I hope they do it again this year.

I have not been able to watch a lot of hockey the past few years and remember turning on a game in the middle of the season and thinking to myself..."I have no idea who any of these guys are!!" The only one I was familiar with was Lundquist, but I hope the Rangers make it.

Ive worked with DPW guys who said if they were working near by and we needed help they would gladly help us out. That said straight to my face " WE will run the trucks for you because we HAVE your old trucks, WE know how to run the pumps" and if I was the OIC and they showed up and asked, Id say go for it. Congrats to those troopers for what they did.

I agree, and the other thing is a lot of the DPW workers are volunteer firefighters, maybe not for the town/village they work in but for others, and are just trying to offer help if needed. The difference being they are "Offering" help and not freelancing, or forcing themselves on you.

When I worked for the DPW for my previous Village I worked with another firefighter from our neighboring town and we would ride to some of the calls in my district together, and he would offer his help every time to my chief. Sometimes the chief would accept and have him run a pump or act as accountability officer, other times he would gratefully decline. I realy dont think its a big deal if people (trained people with experience) want to offer their help to other fire departments, EMS agencies or whatever. If more people were like that our population of "A" Holes would be smaller and maybe we would have less violence, racism, and hate????

Angelo, when you said "just the response you were looking for" or words to that effect about another post, the moose I think innocently missed the sarcasm bro.

I know him personally efdcapt115 and was joking around with him, hence the "LOL" i placed at the end of the reply, but I guess he doesnt know what "LOL" means...

You can joke with some but not with others sadly.

Laugh Out Loud.............It helps you feel better.

Everybodygoes, I'm not looking to get into an arguement with you over what in the end is complete nonsense, but I am up for an intelligent rational discussion, so I'll respond to your post.

"The FDNY has been doing rescues since 1865, ESU was started what in the 20's?"

In 1865 the hodge podge of volunteer fire companies were superceded by the Metropolitan Fire Department, which in its beginning roots only covered parts of what is now Manhattan and later on Brooklyn. The FDNY officially became the FDNY in 1870. It wasn't until 1928 that the Bronx was pretty much completely served by the paid Fire Department, followed by Queens in 1929, and Staten Island in 1937. The Fire Departments main function was Fire Suppression. I have tried to research a bit more on the history of the FDNY and their involvement in rescue work, but have come up short in factual verifiable information. If you know where I can locate this, I'd be interested to read it. I know that Rescue 1 was officially formed in 1915, and Rescue 2 was officially formed in 1925. According to the unofficial website for Rescue 1, the formation of the rescue companies was borne out of several fires (Equitable Building, 1912, a Subway Train fire in 1915) wthere firefighters were encountered with difficult forcible entries, and realized the need for a company that carried specialized equipment to operate at these fire scenes. As time went on, Rescue began to get more involved in the Technical Rescue arena, but their original responsibility was to operate at fire scenes, and perform rescues of firefighters and civilians at structural fire scenes (taken from an unofficial Rescue 2 website). This was a time when the FDNY had their hands full with structural fires. Rescue 1 was first equipped with it's first Hurst Tool in 1972. The NYPD was officially formed in 1854 (20 years before the Metropolitan Fire Dept.). ESU was formed in 1925 from a pool of police officers who possessed special skills (electricians, carpenters, riggers, etc.) with the sole purpose of performing rescue assignments. The Unit was also known as the departments Firearms Battalion, and years later the Unit was coined the Mobile Security Unit, where it was tasked with responding to both rescues and tactical situations. Their role as a tactical unit expanded in the 1970's after the Munich Olympics massacre. Not sure when ESU equipped their vehicles with hurst tools. In a book written about the history of FDNY Rescue 1, it was written that members of the NYPD ESU actually helped train the first members of Rescue 1 (I'm not making claims to the accuracy of the material, just relaying what was written. I'll re-post the title of the book when I dig it up). ESU was formed to serve the cop on patrol. At a time when NYC was burning down and the FDNY had their hands full with structural fires, the members of ESU were a resource for the patrol cop to handle these rescue jobs. Before the formation of FDNY Rescue, members of the FDNY performed rescues with the limited equipment and training they had. Before the formation of NYPD ESU, members of the NYPD performed rescues with the limited equipment and training they had. So to say one was doing it before the other... not sure how much weight that holds.

Westchester County PD has hurst tools before the overwhelming majority of FD's, especially in the northern part of Westchester County, and were the only one's equipped to perform vehicle extrications on certain parts of the County highways for many years.

"You tell me who is better trained at doing it."

I don't know, who is? What discipline are we talking about? ESU members go through a Rope Rescue Technician course provided by a nationally recognized training organization that meets NFPA 1670 and 1006 requirements, and go for continual training multiiple times a year, whether it is self-driven Squad level training, mandated in-house training, or training provided by outside training organizations. ESU members go through an AVET course similar to the Fire Service, and through self-motivation and discipline will often visit local junk yards to train on scrap and derelict vehicles during the course of their normal tour to remain competent on their skills. They go through the EPA Haz Mat Technician course, the FEMA Structural Collapse Technician course, all meet and exceed the NFPA requirements.

"You show up with 2 we show up with 6"

You are correct, and sometimes 2 is all you need... more is not always better. I agree that on jobs that are manpower intensive (structural collapses, trench rescues) rolling 6 deep is a huge benefit, and necessary for the operation at hand, and something that ESU really can't compete with. But look at the majority of confirmed pin jobs.. they're simple door jobs that are mitigated in minutes. Quite often I'll see 2 guys working and 4 standing around doing nothing. Even on a simple, minor MVA with injuries on the highway when you have 2 and 2 rolling in with 4 (I think) guys on each piece of apparatus. That's 16 guys either standing around or jockeying for position for one totally stable patient. It's not a knock or a low-blow, it's simple observation. On a more technical or complicated job, we should all be able to work together, and I think the concept of working together is more prevalent in the outer-boroughs. I haven't been around that long, but overall I've had no real major issues when it comes to working together. What it comes down to more often then not is not the patch on the sleeve, but the mentaility of the individual.

As I mentioned before, Westchester County PD handled extrications on the County Highways for many, many years before a lot of the local VFD's had hurst tools, and they got the job done in most instances without 6 people showing up.

"But, don't tell me what happened in Brooklyn was a rare occurence, cause it isnt."

I didn't say it was a rare occurence. What I am saying it's that it's not a one-sided problem. I'm not trying to bash anyone or any agency, but I'll give you 2 examples. Queens, 2 ESU members tethered and outfitted in gumby suits are effecting an ice rescue. After making contact with the victims, members of the FDNY show-up and 5 or 6 run out onto the ice in bunker gear. No tethers, no protective suits, just bunker gear. Can you guess what happens? Ice breaks, and all of them fall through the ice into the freezing cold water and now they all have to be rescued. All of this was caught on video by a news chopper. Don't believe me, I'll post the video here. How is that scenario any different then the one you portrayed about ESU guys trying to be the "it guys", and endangering their own safety and the safety of the other responders who now have to get them out of the water? Or a more recent scenario. Water rescue, male in the water up along the seawall. ESU arrives, one member suits up in a drysuit, and while being tethered, enters the water and grabs the person in the water. While this is going on, FDNY members drop a ladder in the water, and insist on putting one of their own in the water, eventhough the person is "in-custody" for lack of a better term. Now the ESU member has to wait for the FDNY member to descend the ladder so him and the victim can climb the ladder out of the water. The FDNY member entered the water, and came right back up the ladder. What purpose did that serve other then to be the "it guy"? If we want to get technical, according to NYC CIMS, NYPD is the lead agency for all water incidents. What it comes down to is the A-type personality that the majority of us possess and everyone wants to be that "it guy", unfortunately sometimes people's judgements get clouded and irrational decisions are made on both sides, not just one. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

"Guys in Truck 4 are all aces, never had a single problem with them and they work with us well, and of course you cant paint with a broad brush, but it does happen and nothing is done to mediate it. "

Like I said before, I think as you get into the outer-boroughs, there's less drama overall. I don't have an answer as to why nothing is done to mediate it.

"Wonder why it doesnt happen in Yonkers?"

I don't know, maybe someone from Yonkers can chime in. Maybe it's a better working relationship. Maybe Yonkers ESU wants little to do with rescue work. Maybe we just don't hear about the problems. Maybe the current workload leads to few occasions where there's a potential for a problem. I honestly don't know.

That was perhaps the most detailed, insightful response to a discussion I have seen on this forum in a long time, and I enjoyed reading it and learned a lot from it. This is why I am a member of these forums, to read excellent content like this. Kudos. (ran out of "likes" for the day otherwise I would have given you one, but will hit you up tomorrow!)

Keeping real simple, we all do what we do for two reasons, to help others and to go home at the end of our tours. Bottom line thats exactly what the troopers did. They helped out their brother and sisters in emergency service and the public they all serve and helped everyone including themselves get home safely. Let those who would not want the same done for them cast the first stone....

Well said, I would push the like button on this reply until my finger fell off but you are only allowed one per answer, well said and kudos to you sir.

We are ALL family in this line of work.