firemoose827

Happy Birthday Bro........

Being from there I can tell you this; We have been going 24/7 since the storm hit. Three communities have been decimated by the floods, 2 have lost their fire stations and some equipment. The rest of us have been heading up relief efforts to supply food and clothing and cleaning supplies to the affected. Numerous homes wiped out. Schoharie (Village) itself has become a haz-mat site with unknown quantities of fuel oil and god knows what else soaked into the soils and buildings from the flooding. We had another 3 inches of rain yesterday and had a mandatory evacuation of Middleburgh and Schoharie and I think Livingstonville as well.
Whatever help you all can offer will be appreciated, as helicopter already pointed out, you may very well not respond to anything while you are here, but just being here, relieving the crews from local departments who may have lost their homes as well is more help than you can imagine.
Thanks to all that respond here, from all of my brothers/sisters here in Schoharie County, we appreciate it all. If you are anywhere near my station stop by and say hello, we will feed you too!!
Thanks again.
Stay Safe.
Moose

Being from there I can tell you this; We have been going 24/7 since the storm hit. Three communities have been decimated by the floods, 2 have lost their fire stations and some equipment. The rest of us have been heading up relief efforts to supply food and clothing and cleaning supplies to the affected. Numerous homes wiped out. Schoharie (Village) itself has become a haz-mat site with unknown quantities of fuel oil and god knows what else soaked into the soils and buildings from the flooding. We had another 3 inches of rain yesterday and had a mandatory evacuation of Middleburgh and Schoharie and I think Livingstonville as well.
Whatever help you all can offer will be appreciated, as helicopter already pointed out, you may very well not respond to anything while you are here, but just being here, relieving the crews from local departments who may have lost their homes as well is more help than you can imagine.
Thanks to all that respond here, from all of my brothers/sisters here in Schoharie County, we appreciate it all. If you are anywhere near my station stop by and say hello, we will feed you too!!
Thanks again.
Stay Safe.
Moose

Anyone interested - A comprehensive report comparing Akron & Elkhart Brass Smooth Bore & Automatic Nozzles by the West Metro Fire Dept (Co. 1 B Shift) including a number of great articles written by Andy Fredericks.
Great read if you have some time to kill:
http://api.ning.com/files/Q0-pPg6YaoW*e7QTk3IsuHe8QL-uEheNl1fEiNmlBiE5BN6WFH6*85-6qlkJ6lk*cI009DO70GaSArSYXAZyh-lE6Ylz3CsW/WMFRNozzleStudy.pdf
It's a shame that Andy isn't here today to make his arguement for smooth bore. RIP.
Here are some great videos that show the dangers of debris in combo nozzles.


Be safe!

I think ALS put it best. There is no substitute for an experinced nozzle team. Lots of career "truck" no engine time guys take the engine for granted and fail to realize the work technique involved in extinguishment.
I have used both automatic and smooth bore to put out structure fires and I prefer the smooth bore. One benifit that may seem trivial but I don't think has been mentioned is when advancing on a fire most of us move the nozzle. The smooth bore will definatly be the lightest. Anyone who has made a real push will realize that your arms get fatigued. And by real push I mean move the nozzle down the hall and extinguish more than one room. Anyone can get to a doorway and spray water to put out a room and contents fire.
I would also advocate using the smooth bore with 2.5 in standpipe situations. The chances of running into water problems are compounded when using a standpipe. Many times the PRD can not be removed. You also tend to get some real dirty water out of standpipes which could become problematic for an automatic nozzle. Those issues to me make a 2.5 with smooth bore nozzle the best choice for standpipe evolutions. An 1 1/8" tip on the smooth bore will give an effective stream with as low as 40 psi at the nozzle.
Lastly what ever you have DRILL. Make sure your chauffeurs are pumping them right. Flake out the line, chase the kinks.

I'm not a nozzle expert...but I've heard many of the arguments used to promote both styles of nozzles...most are inaccurate and even a few I've read in your posts that were said to you are outdated practices that have been shown to even be dangerous. Most of the combo/fog nozzle arguments I get at work are from the guys who went to the academy and were trained during the big combo/fog nozzle heydays of the late 70's/early 80's.
Here are some of the myths I've heard, read and a couple said to me over the years:
1. You get more reach with a SB. Tests have shown time and time again that when flowed at the right PDP...both will get the same reach.
2. SB have more volume. Again this depends on what your pumping at. 150 GPM's are 150 GPM's if that is what your standard flow is. A combo/fog you can get up to 175 GPM's. A SB with 15/16" tip you can get up to around 185 GPM with 1 3/4".
3. You have less nozzle reaction with a SB. Again this depends on the flow. At 150 GPM it will have less. But if you are getting up in the 175-185 GPM range you start to equal the NR of a combo/fog at 150.
4. You can put out more fire with less water. Really? Our business is about flow. GPM's are GPM's and you want to overwhelm the BTU output of the fire with more BTU absorption capability in water then it wants to put out. Steam does help obviously with the process and you will more then likely get more faster with a combo/fog being its droplets formed into a stream. But is that always better? With good stream management and movement you are using the ceiling and walls to break up your solid stream into for lack of a better term broken stream to get both. If a combo/fog puts out more fire...hell why do we still have 2 1/2" lines if we can do more with less with that nozzle?
5. Here's one that was said to me when I inquired about switching to SB at a previous vollie dept. I was a member of. "We thought about it but my brother and I agreed that these guys would waste the water." My answer: 150 GPM is 150 GPM no matter what its coming out of. And if that's the case..then we have a training issue.
6. Combo/fog can protect you from heat. OK. yes it can but in very specific applications. The old right to fight stayed....but left for life has long been thrown away as ineffective and downright dangerous. Nothing beats cooling a thermal layer line a well placed and well delivered fire stream to the upper areas. The biggest thing that will protect you from flashover is recognition, proper placement in a room to get out in time and wearing all your PPE.
7. You can't hydraulically ventilate with a SB. Actually you can, its just not as efficient as a combo/fog and if your basing your nozzle purchases and use on that sole operation...well all I can say IMHO...is have at it...but you scare me.
8. Just to be fair. SB doesn't go without any issues either. If you have a SB nozzle particularly on 1 3/4" lines, one problem you can have at the lower GPM rates like 150 GPM is that the hose at those lighter pressures will not be firm enough to support the nozzle depending on its weight. It will cause a kink just behind the coupling and when getting vigorous with our patterns can cause a whipping action of the nozzle.
My final bottom line is this...while I prefer SB on handlines...and no matter what you prefer you better have good fire stream management period. I've never stretched a line and said damn this is going to be tougher because I have xyz nozzle. Know what you have and be good at using them. Only thing I am an advocate staunch on is having SB for master streams. They are less susceptible to environmental factors and it does give you better penetration into a thermal column. My experience also is pump operators underflow combo/fog master streams especially on auto nozzles because the stream looks good generally at any GPM, nor do they have a good grasp on what is even being flowed. With SB you know a target number, you can calculate it quickly and the stream says a lot...underflowed or overflowed.

With the hurricane expecting to reach a Cat 1 or 2 when it makes land fall, coastal communities can expect anywhere from 0-6ft of storm surge along with significant rainfall. Make sure your pumps, saws and any other mechanical equipment you need are gased, oiled, and ready to run.
If your department is going to run flood water evacuations, or other types of water rescues without calling for a water rescue team, be sure to follow the following guidelines (and by no means take this as "Ok, we're good to go for flood water and swift water response").
- NO turnout gear in or around the water - turnout gear, especially pants and boots WILL DROWN YOU. It is impossible to kick and try and stay afloat wearing it.
- Wear your life jacket anytime you are within 6 feet of water.
- Do not wear neoprene rescue suits in flood waters, this includes ice rescue suits. Gas and other petroleum based products that are found floating in the flood waters will break down your suit eventually reaching your skin giving you a nasty burn. They also not water tight, leaving room for water contaminated with sewer waste, oils, and other nasty stuff to get inside the suit and fester up against your skin for the duration of you wearing it.
- Always walk in flood waters with a prod pole that reaches feet in front of you (not directly in front of where you are standing), much like sounding the floor when VESing a room. Manhole covers, sewer drain lids and other items will be forcefully removed by the water, leaving a hole in the road filled with downward flowing water. You will get sucked in, and you will drown; it has happened many times before and a fireman recently drowned in Colorado.
- Swift water constitutes any water moving faster then 1kts.
- Remember the adage of "REACH, THROW, ROW. GO." Any rescue where we can stay warm and dry, is the most successful type. If you are unsure, call for a swift water team, in fact call for the swift water team anyways, it is far better to have them in route, then realizing 20 minutes down the line you need them in rapidly rising waters.. They have the training and knowledge on how to preform this most difficult type of rescue. The GO portion, should only be performed by individuals who reach the Technical or Operational level of swift water. Any member can stand on the shore and throw a rope, or shove a pike pole to the individual. DO NOT tie your entry team off to a rope that is tied to a shore, if they slip, they will be pulled under water by force and drown.
Again, this is by no means a training module or any release to say you are good to go for swift or flood water rescue. Use this as an awareness tool.

I saw that...now I am thinking I need to get some plywood and cover my new replacement windows I put in over the past 2 years...and sand bags to keep what is left of my driveway from washing away until the state can fix the rain gutters on the street...oh the joys of being a homeowner....
Sure wish I could simply rely on ole Uncle Barack (or however you spell whatshisname) and sit back and have you all work for me..LOL

May be just a bit premature not knowing the exact track and what not but I Called for a work detail last night and we did a once over of all the saws and pumps and all that good stuff. Granted our station check was just completed but we don't need one craping out if we get hit.

I had a playful argument with an older ex-chief at drill the other night. We discussed the smooth bore he found on the hose bed on our engine during a recent fire we had. He started to bash the nozzle and say that any good firefighter knows that a fog nozzle is the best kind to use. Intrigued by his remarks I asked him why he felt that way. He explained that the smooth bore nozzles knock everything in the room around and mess up the evidence of the investigation later on. I proceeded to tell him that the untrained firefighter with a fog nozzle could very well do that also, and that the fog nozzles disrupt the thermal layer and if your not carefull and do not coordinate with the vent team you could steam yourself and the crew and become human lobsters. The argument went back and forth, and ended at the end of the night with a playful smack on the back of my head and me being called "A stubborn @$#%^"
So, at risk of being yelled at and accused of starting a thread that has already been talked about, I searched in the database and found this one started back in 2006, and thought i could please interest all of you in sharing additional, up-to-date information about the two types of nozzles and what your preference and personal experiences are with them. This way I can arm myself with more info for "round two" next Monday night!
I figured that since this post has been retired, there have got to be atleast 100 newer members that have not participated in this discussion and thought it would be beneficial to everyone, creating another positive learning evironment for the younger members.
So, without further adieu....Let the games begin.
PS-keep it civil and clean, offer info both positive and negative but keep it professional, and remember there are members out there who want to know this stuff but are afraid to ask.
Thanks and Stay Safe.

Here are a couple pictures from our final inspection of our new Rescue/Pumper

I guess to save any confusion I'll say I favor smoothbores for most fire attack applications, while knowing the fog is a better choice in a few circumstances. But, to fair, we must address some of the issues that cause us to "misspeak" about either type of nozzle tip. In many recent test from around the country, in head to head comparison the fog either equals the SB or exceeds it in reach. Now this doesn't include loss of actual water due to heat or wind, but just straight up, matching gpm for gpm, they are fairly well matched. Again, in a typical non commercial structure fire the reach differences will not be a factor.
EFFDCAPT: I can only surmise the reason so many fog nozzles continue to see frontline use is that those people making the key decisions of today came up during those years that we used smaller 1.5" lines with fogs flowing less than 100 gpm (thought we had more!) and literally pushed the fire from the unburned to the burned side and out windows and doors. At the same time we were shown how the fog nozzle could be opened to keep cool air coming in from behind to reduce the heat we felt, and to help push the heat, fire and smoke away from us. Houses we not nearly as tight so the effects of fog and steam were not felt as soon as in today's ultra energy efficient homes/buildings. So of our older guys started just as SCBA were coming out and went from no SCBA, thin bunkers and boots, rubber gloves and armed with smoothbore to fully dressed out in bunker gear, with an SCBA and a fog nozzle and were able to get all the way to the seat of the fire that they would have previously knocked down from the hall. They were sold that this was the only way to go. Today we can readily see and scientifically show the effects of energy efficient structures, fire and how a fog pattern vs. smoothbore changes the environment for us and any would be victims.
Just because smoothbores were around before fog, doesn't mean they weren't the best choice all along. One must really separate the BS reasons from the real ones to have valid debate. To me it comes down to the size of the droplets. Andy Fredricks was showing us this in terms everyone could understand before he was taken along with 342 more of our Brothers.

Simplicity and efficiency. We all know we run more BS and less fire then the guys of the elder years did way before my time, and a lot of places do no have the training capabilities to consistently train on automatic and combination nozzles. Most departments do not cross train either, so when you have department x, coming to department y, who has never used a combo nozzle before, you're asking for someone to get hurt.
In my opinion, the smooth bore is the perfect nozzle for initial, interior structural attack purpose. There are no rotating bumpers to worry about smacking around and turning to a fog pattern; there are no GPM selectors that can get rotated to flush greatly reducing your GPM's, there are no fingers in a rotating fan that can get jammed up with a pebble the size of a rats n*ts that will ruin your day, there is just a simple bale for open and close, and enough room to expell any crap that makes it through the pump to the nozzle.
Fog nozzles are great for exposure protection, overhaul and Christmas tree fires at the training center. Leave them on the rig until they are needed, and apply them as such.
Again, this is just my opinion. unfortunately, its not the opinion of my department. Depending on the engine in my department, there are a few 1.75" with smooth bores, and all 2.5" lines have smooth bores. Like I've said before, leave the combo/auto nozzle in the chauffeurs compartment for when it is needed, and leave the handlines with a smooth bore preconnected.

If you needed to make an attack on an interior fire with only what is in your tank, lets say 500 gallons, I would go with a fog nozzel. I was taught that you can extinguish more fire with less water using a fog nozzel.

Good topic.
And I KNOW there are alot of experienced engine guys here..looking forward to the replies.
My department is all automatic nozzles, but I really would like to see us phase in smooth bores.

I had a playful argument with an older ex-chief at drill the other night. We discussed the smooth bore he found on the hose bed on our engine during a recent fire we had. He started to bash the nozzle and say that any good firefighter knows that a fog nozzle is the best kind to use. Intrigued by his remarks I asked him why he felt that way. He explained that the smooth bore nozzles knock everything in the room around and mess up the evidence of the investigation later on. I proceeded to tell him that the untrained firefighter with a fog nozzle could very well do that also, and that the fog nozzles disrupt the thermal layer and if your not carefull and do not coordinate with the vent team you could steam yourself and the crew and become human lobsters. The argument went back and forth, and ended at the end of the night with a playful smack on the back of my head and me being called "A stubborn @$#%^"
So, at risk of being yelled at and accused of starting a thread that has already been talked about, I searched in the database and found this one started back in 2006, and thought i could please interest all of you in sharing additional, up-to-date information about the two types of nozzles and what your preference and personal experiences are with them. This way I can arm myself with more info for "round two" next Monday night!
I figured that since this post has been retired, there have got to be atleast 100 newer members that have not participated in this discussion and thought it would be beneficial to everyone, creating another positive learning evironment for the younger members.
So, without further adieu....Let the games begin.
PS-keep it civil and clean, offer info both positive and negative but keep it professional, and remember there are members out there who want to know this stuff but are afraid to ask.
Thanks and Stay Safe.

I really dont know why so many are getting worked up over this...
Three pages and not a single bash or criticism of the work done by the several fire departments on scene. A unique challenge met head on resulting in a positive outcome. Really only one voice questioning anything..which has to be a record! LOL
Everything from scene management, adequate manpower, a surplus of tools and equipment, etc..everything spot on. This was an incident that we all can learn from, thanks in part to Mark's pics and 2ndAC Schultz' narrative..I know that I learned something from this thread.
I can also see the the validity of the questioning of the treatment...I agree with ALS treatment on this patient, but that is one of the troubles with commercial EMS...you never know who you're gonna get. Yes, it all worked out in the end, but I beleive an aggressive medic would have opted to treat differently...I know I would.
Again - awesome job Battalion 4 guys....seriously STRONG WORK...Dont let the few negative voices keep you from sharing your information, pictures, and opinions.

Seth, dont you know its not the SIZE of the rescue, its how you use it...
Mark, please do not let any of these guys deter you from posting pics any more, you take good ones and all of the pics on this site are a good learning tool, especially when the chiefs involved post here and share their insight on the incident and what was going through their minds. This was a challenging scene, and it was mitigated safely and quickly with no serious injury or worse, to me thats a good day! Keep posting pics and dont let them stop you, the mods on this site will do their jobs and we will support both you and the mods.
Great Job.

Seth, dont you know its not the SIZE of the rescue, its how you use it...
Mark, please do not let any of these guys deter you from posting pics any more, you take good ones and all of the pics on this site are a good learning tool, especially when the chiefs involved post here and share their insight on the incident and what was going through their minds. This was a challenging scene, and it was mitigated safely and quickly with no serious injury or worse, to me thats a good day! Keep posting pics and dont let them stop you, the mods on this site will do their jobs and we will support both you and the mods.
Great Job.

Thank you Seth for posting about the anti-negativity campaign. I am going to refrain from commenting on what has transpired on this thread since the last time I was one to read it because Mark went against his better judgment to post these pictures on here so we could talk about a unique scenario (thanks Mark), and someone had to mount the QB chair this fine Monday to pick apart PT issues. The Medics and EMS personnel on scene have enough crust on their EMS gear for me to trust whatever treatment they executed, and that is the bottom line. The pictures give no one enough basis for any claims otherwise.
I want to again thank those who were there or involved in any way shape or form, a late thanks to the Medivac crew who was on standby for a portion of the call. And a big thank you to those who have contributed positively and constructively to this thread.

Let the arguments be done. Chief Shultz has come a long way in my book, and his word should be the final word on this incident. Thanks marketmets415 for the photos.

Totally get your frustration but the pics do most of us a lot more good than the trivial nonsense that goes back and forth with a relative few posters. Please don't stop posting photos. Lately the bickering is cleared up relatively quickly by the moderators, yourself inlcuded.

Excellent job on the stabilization on that one chief! Looked like a big challenge and it was handled very professionally, excellent job to you and the crews.
Mark, great pictures!

Why is the one comment from the man with more fire experience than most of us combined, basically ignored? You want this to be a learning tool right? Recognize who is doing the TEACHING.

To answer your question, the house is literally feet away from the Yonkers border. One side of the street is Hastings but across the street is Yonkers. Very happy to see everyone working together, regardless.