firemoose827

Yonkers was there for the same reason Hastings was. The car was on fire. Both agencies have fire engines and firefighters. Sometimes, on the border, dual departments are dispatched, especially when you have such a fragmented dispatch systen. But you don't have time to sort rhat out because time is not your friend.
We could pick this apart forever. Now that everyone has camera phones and cameras that take videos, we're always under the gun for criticism and everyone thinks that they are an expert. This is why everyone complains about this forum.
If someone on scene that is an officer wants to come on here and comment or give insight and maybe answer questions, fine. I'd love to see that. But they are under no obligation to answer to their tatics here, other then if they wannt to use this to enhance firefighter safety. So, relax on the critcism. I'm pretty sure this is not the first car fire these guys have put out, and I'm sure they can use the video to learn.
Again, this is what give the forum a bad name. I think a video like this is a great learning tool, but these types of threads actually make people not want to share their experiences. Everyone wants to criticize other departments, but when it comes to their own department.....
I think this is an excellent video to learn from. But I'm sure Hastings and Yonkers wouldn't appreciate speculation.

As the Second Asst. Chief of the Millerton Fire Company, we would like to thank all the fire companies that were involved in the mitigation of today's incident whether it was standby duty at another firehouse or directly involved in the actual extrication. So a big thanks to the Amenia, Wassaic, Stanford, Millbrook, Dover, and Lakeville fire companies. Also a tip of the lid to CC-14, CC-16, DCSO, NYSP, and the cattle farmers who were there to assist with the cows: all provided invaluable assistance.
This was a particularly tough extrication all around, because not only was it an auto accident with entrapment but it also basically a simpler man in the machine type scenario, the two fused together to make one interesting call. I was first on scene and was able to take it all in before the organized chaos ensued. A flatbed truck driven straight underneath 5-tons of machinery. All the stability was taken away from the hopper and transferred to the building and the vehicle itself. The driver was encapsulated basically but unharmed. Literally just in his seat, no way to move one way or the other. As you can imagine by the photos stabilization was the biggest issue which is why a multitude of rescues were brought in, for their cribbing alone, but also for air bags and the other specialty equipment they could provide. Once that was accomplished the actual extrication was easy. As you can tell in the photo slide we removed a back rack and the rear part of the passengers cab and the driver was able to self extricate basically from that point.
All involved stated that this was one that you could not really train for, and despite its many challenges I can say that I am proud of the outcome and way in which the incident was mitigated.

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I didn't think Wescot was that old.

I routinely scour eBay for "stuff"...and found this yesterday.
It is a postcard with a photo of the members of the J H Ketcham Hose Company, and it is post dated 1909. JHK was incorporated in 1908...these may VERY WELL be our founding fathers!
I plan to get it framed and donate it to the department to hang in our meeting room.

Yes...thats why you see in my sidebar, under location I put what I put. We are a small rural farm community. The biggest department in our county is the best off, covering SUNY college and a Wal-Mart among other big stores who all give out monies to volunteer agencies covering their locations annually to assist in protecting their stores. The SUNY campus alone requires that the local FD have an appropriate aerial device to cover their dorm buildings and fire emergencies and assist them to have one at all times.
In my current department only a few minutes ride north of that location we are ALL farmland and small residential areas, no commercial districts, no industrial districts other than repair garages and such. My roster has only 23 active firefighters, out of those only 9 are certified interior firefighters...Most of the roster is older members who only ride fire police or assist with EMS calls, being past chiefs and officers who now just want to help. Our younger membership is dwindling fast and the money just isnt there, yet we do an average of 140 calls a year, which isnt much to some of you I know, but we still have the need.
This past year the town highway received a new building and truck which wiped out any extra money the town had. Our budget (If you call it that) is so small it looks like my daughters piggy bank is bigger. I just recently transfered here in the past year from the other department I mentioned above, and they couldnt get me a set of turnouts until almost a year after joining, I had another department down in the HV area donate a bunch of turnouts but they were all pressing the expiration date as well. We currently use a infrared thermometer as a "TIC", and only have a small CO meter bought from a local hardware store to use in emergencies.
Our ambulance is falling apart yet it runs about 3 times a week (I know thats not a lot to most of you but its still more than our FD runs and the ambulance gets used) and every call it gets taken out of service for repairs for a day or two. Its not safe and we are working on repairing it and fighting with the commissioners and the town board to replace it. Now the attack engine goes...
It sucks but we deal with what we are dealt and make the best out of it. Since joining this department last June (a year ago) we had 3 structure fires in our district and two of those houses are still standing and being repaired. The third was a single wide trailer that was gone before they even called us. So we put up a fight at least and make due with what we have but we shouldnt have to, know what I mean? If anyone can help us let me know, I am not ashamed to ask for help, because we need it.
Thanks again to all the replies, I am looking into each suggestion, and right now am talking to a chief from the NY area who might be giving us a rig...They are saving our lives!!! I am waiting for a call back to confirm and my department is EXTATIC for their generosity. Makes you remember that brotherhood still exists out there.

Sorry that I'm not PMing you but on my mobile the messenger doesn't work well....
You also may want to check with Midway (Adams County Co 24) who lost it's response area and had two rigs one of them being a newer HME or KME. Also Adams Co 21 who also lost their response area an had an International Commercial pumper and a Darley pumper tanker. Finally Adams 7 had an old Hahn that they just replaced and not sure if it's been sold.

Call Jere Lady at Lady & Taylor in Heidlersburg / Gettysburg he may have some ideas.

and.........
Thank you Cap, did you ever wonder how many of these dog and pony show people that claim to be the be-all, know-alls have actually spent time putting out fires? Or is it "Let's form a committee and we can claim it all as a business expense"? Sometimes it's like a cult: The self-appointed "reverend" yells "Safety!" or "Progress," and half the fire service drinks the KoolAid.
Remember the old saying: A jackass is a racehorse developed by a committee.

FACT: Science beats tradition when it comes to extinguishment.
http://firechief.com/suppression/foam/benefits-class-a-foam-200907/
http://firechief.com/suppression/foam/firefighting_bubbles_beat_water/
Boston showed great results, however they had retrofitted older rigs and had major maintenance issues. As long as there is a failure of the large metropolitan fire agency located on the East Coast (serving 5 boros) to recognize the benefits of this method of extinguishment it will continue to flounder in regard to acceptance. Once a member of that agency sees the light and does a program on it at FDIC or another big venue it will look like the second coming of the savior.

Great, the ICMA thinks you can drop costs by adding this and then you can get rid of the back-up & 3rd man. And you state we need them just as much if not more.
One needs to look very carefully at this.

Dan and Ryan have you been to any calls other then the one in Amenia where CAFS was used? I know Millerton has had several calls where they used CAFS, the one that comes to mind was the Smith fire just off Route 22 where they used the CAFS and it made a huge difference, I drove by the house the next day and could not even tell the place had a fire. I have personally been at two structure fire where I have been on the CAFS line and it made a significant difference on the knock down with alot less water and alot more flexibilty in operating the line and less fatigue on the line guys. As with anything, it isn't full proof, training and using it will only make it's use that much more effective.
Let's be honest here Ryan and Dan you guys will probably never use it (unless on a mutual aide call) nor purchase it and no matter how many times it is shown that it is can make a difference there are some departments because of tradition that won't even consider it and the one time (Amenia's fire which by the way had a void left open during renovations that allowed the fire to travel to the attic) where it isn't effective the nah sayers will rise up and say I told you so. We can argue back and forth on the merits of it to the cows come home, fire will go out without water and without any training or tactics.
Ryan how many times can we talk about the tools in the box, how many guys can't or don't even don their issued turnout gear (which is as basic tool as a flat screw driver) or an SCBA at a structure fire, let alone be pro-active enough to use and train with a new tool. Heck how many times have you been at a call where a ground ladder can't even be raised or placed properly, another basic tool. So let's be careful and not look through rose colored glasses when we are talking about the good ole tool box when even the basic tools aren't even taken out of the box routinely, you have seen and so haven't I, call after call.
Dan I said our zone not area, several departments North of Dover love it, train with it and use it so it is proven to them, maybe not you, Ryan or I but to those departments that use it, it has been proven to them and that's all that matters to them. As I said in the thread about our engine, I wasn't sold on it totally either and still have some limited doubts (because of my lack of using it) but after many discussions with our officers, putting my hands on a CAFS line and talking with the Battalion 4 Chiefs we added to our specifications and it was because we wanted to be proactive and add another feature that will aid us and our neighbors for many years to come.
Ryan the PPV training is a sore subject with me, remind me when I see you next time about a PPV on attack story.
Hey Fiftyone Pride where are you on this discussion, I know you chimed in earlier but please add some real world experience you have had using CAFS and why you now have two CAFS engines!!!!

Agreed but the begging here in the rural area without hydrants and paid personnel just isn't working so it's time to try and find something else that works and the other departments in our zone have proven that CAFS does work!

I see, and completely agree with your point, which is why I am not a fan of fog nozzles either. If I had it my way, but I don't,, we would only be running smooth bores on our lines, and keep a fog nozzle in the chauffeur's compartment if it needs to be attached. Combo nozzles and TFT's, in my eyes, have too many working parts, and can cause too much to go wrong. God forbid something makes its way from a draft site, through the pump and gets stuck inside the fog nozzle, you're screwed.
I've never experienced, or used CAFS myself, so actually commenting on its effectiveness or how I feel about it is pretty irrelevant. I'm just uncomfortable with the entire concept.
Look at this video - At the 5min mark, they begin their attack, and the fire seems to intensify at first with their initial burst.
Then again, they are only spraying down low.

Not for nothing, and please dont take this wrong, its only an observation that I am pointing out to you.
Whenever you use a fog nozzle you add air to the fire, you disrupt the thermal layer and "Push" the fire around if you are not careful. The air in the CAFS is no different, and can be just as dangerous in the hands of someone who is not trained or uncomfortable using the technology. They are the same, just that the CAFS has foam in the stream.
Its not economically feasible in my area, just one five gallon pail of the Class "A" Foam would send our commisioners into coronary failure...wait...that might help, maybe I will bring it up at our next meeting!
I would love to see it used here with our lack of manpower, our mutual aid dept has 2 engines with CAFS and I generaly roll them at every daytime structure fire or vehicle fire in our district. But they are finding it hard to purchase the foam as well, so training is minimal (annual foam training) and they only use it if they need to.

I agree. A fog nozzle in the hands of an inexperienced or untrained firefighter is a dangerous thing.
There was one time when the lining of our hose started to deteriorate and the bits of rubber jammed up all three of the fog nozzles operating at the time. Cost us lots of money to replace or repair those nozzles.
I prefer a smooth bore but my dept swears by the adjustable fog type, but they cant tell me why...
Good points.

Not for nothing, and please dont take this wrong, its only an observation that I am pointing out to you.
Whenever you use a fog nozzle you add air to the fire, you disrupt the thermal layer and "Push" the fire around if you are not careful. The air in the CAFS is no different, and can be just as dangerous in the hands of someone who is not trained or uncomfortable using the technology. They are the same, just that the CAFS has foam in the stream.
Its not economically feasible in my area, just one five gallon pail of the Class "A" Foam would send our commisioners into coronary failure...wait...that might help, maybe I will bring it up at our next meeting!
I would love to see it used here with our lack of manpower, our mutual aid dept has 2 engines with CAFS and I generaly roll them at every daytime structure fire or vehicle fire in our district. But they are finding it hard to purchase the foam as well, so training is minimal (annual foam training) and they only use it if they need to.

Many people have PMed and emailed mre asking about life "over there" in Afghanistan, so I thought I'd write a quick decription of how it is for those interested.
To start I am now assigned to Kandahar Airfield which, unlike all my previous jobs, is a NATO run base. At present I believe the British are the ones technicaly in charge of the base but almost all NATO countries and a few others are represented here. This makes for some interesting interactions as cultures do clash occasionally, usually with comic results fortunately. It is hot here, I mean really hot. Average temperatures this week have been just above 130 with the nights cooling down to a balmy 100 or so. It is also dusty here to the point that everything has a permant shade of tan covering it, no matter how often you clean it.
My FD here or to use it's proper name Kandahar Fire Crash Rescue Services is comprised of 60 men manning 6 crash trucks, 2 structural Engines and a Tanker along with a Chief and as they call them a Plattoon (our Depruty Chief or Shift Commander) Chief for each of the two shifts. Work schedule is 24 on 24 off or on average an 84 hour work week, which may sound like alot but trust me most would rather be working everyday as there isn't much to do otherwise. We do have a gym at the main station as well as a number of military ones throughout the base that we are free to use. There are 6 DFACs (dining facilites), 1 British, 1 French or Continental, 1 Asian and 2 American, the other I havent found yet but it is reported to be Arabic serving only Hallal food (similar to Kosher). The food itself is edible although as any former soldier can tell you, everything is cooked well beyond well done. Kandahar also boasts a Boardwalk which is just exactly what you'd expect it to be, a wooden sidewalk on which fromts a number of commercial establishments. We have a KFC and Friday's, 2 pizza joints although the term pizza is a bit of a stretch to anyone from our area, a Nathan's open 24 hours to boot a coffe shop and a French Deli/Patisserre. Along with the gastronomic choices there are a number of small "Haji" or locals run shops carrying everything from cigarettes to jewelery and trinkets to a full tailor shop that will make a hand tailored suit for you for about $250. There is also a Bazaar every Saturday with the ubiquitous bootleg movies as well as an impressive selection of junk, haggling a must.
About the FD itself aside from the above. Well I started at the main station, Station 1 which sits on the Airfield. Housed there are 5 of the 6 crash trucks and their attendant crews. I was assigned to Engine 3 one of the two structural units on base. Station 3 houses another crash truck on the opposite side of the runway. Station 3 is a luxuriously appointed Army tent with none of the comforts of home. Station 1 is more akin to a Stateside firehouse with an alarm room, offices, a large dayroom and sleeping quarters (3 to a room). The crash side of the house is busier here since much to my suprise Kandahar Airfield is the busiest single runway airport in the world with between 850 - 1000 inbound and outbound flights a week. And there is quite a wide variety of aircraft in and out of here including C-130s and C-17s, C-5s as well, F-16s, F/A/18s, Harriers, A-10s. We also get 737s, Antonov A-12s and the other really huge Russian one whose designation I can't recall as well as a few 747s. Choppers abound with Blackhawks and Chinooks, Cobras, and Apaches and a large contingent of old Russian machines like the Mil-8 and the Mil -10 for transpot duty. And of course the UAVs which are really quite impressive.
My current assignment is as the Crew Chief (Capt) of Station 2 "Southside". I have with me 4 crewman and our rig is a European spec'ed Rosenbauer from Germany. Needles to say that it takes a bit of getting used to with the pump in the rear and it's overall lack of hose and equipment by our standards, not to mention its all metric. I have a pump that in liters!! Damn Europeans now I have to do math.
Our first due is about 8 sq. miles with roughly 25,000 miltary and civilian residents. Building range from one and two story PEBs (pre engineered buildings) of metal and wood. wooden B and C huts (think ranch houses except it's many offices or sleeping rooms off a central hallway), tents of various sizes up to 200 x 75 and a large number of two story masonary barracks (think garden apartments). Along with these living areas we on the Southside enjoy the distinction of being what back home would be called the industrail side of town. The majority of the mechanical shops, warehouses, stortage facilities fuel points and motorpools are in our first due, along with a host of HazMat goodies. All in all it's a diverse and challenging district.
Now what makes KAFs Fire Department somewhat unique is the fact that we are comprised of a multi national force. There are Indians, Philippinos, South Aficans and a sizeable contingent of Brits. Then there's a few Canucks and representing the good ole USA is Nate who hails form the metro DC area and myself. While English is the required language I have found that it's use is somewhat impeded by the variety of accents in use. In fact I've found that I'll need to invest in an English to English dictionary to communicate with my comrades form the UK...LOL
One of the most common questions I get is, is it safe? Well safe is a relative term in a war zone. We do get regular presents of the 81, 120 and 240mm variety from our Taliban friends outside the wire and they do at times cause casualities. The last was a soldier a few months ago. Our towel headed friends also like to try and crash our party here often by trying to get through the wire. They don't get too far. In fact just prior to my arrival about 100 or so of them got their wish with a one way fast track ticket to meet Allah...isn't that nice for them. Hopefully their buddies will be right behind. Our boys here are more than happy to oblige that wish and we all support them. Vigilance is a necessity here, just like home complacency kills. We do all we can to stay safe, but the reality is, if your numbers up then it's up. Until then I and all of us have a job to do and we just do it.
Some may think this a noble or courageous endeavor, for that I thank you, but please give your kudos to those that really deserve it, the brave and dedicated men and women of our Armed Forces. These folks are as courageous as they come and they are in a sense our kindred spirits....they too put themselves at risk to protect and serve others, all of us here and back home.
In closing I would ask a favor from all who read this. As you go through your day stop for just a minute and think about those service members over here and what they are sacrificing for you and yours. And if it should strike you please find an organization that send things over and send something to a soldier, sailor, or airman here. It couild be anything, a letter, a card and damn tube of toothpaste...anything so that they know that you remember and support them. They will appreciate it more than you know. Freedom is not free and these folks are paying the price for our freedom, please don't forget them.
Cogs
________________
Peter Cogliano
Crew Chief Engine 2 "Southside"
Kandahar Fire Crash Rescue Services
Kandahar Airfield Afghanistan

2nd Capt / Asst. Training Officer
Belltown Fire Dept.
Stamford, CT

Another question, based loosely off of the original post, if I may;
What EMS resources, in addition to rehab, do you have at your hot weather fires and "working" incidents?
Do you have additional standby/transport units? Do you call them?
Do they have a set assignment; as in park as to not get blocked in, report to the staging area with stretcher and gear, etc?
In my opinion, only ONE ambulance at a scene of a fire or manpower intensive incident is inadequate. We need to be ready to have immediate treatment AND transport for located fire victims, injured MOS, distraught homeowners, etc....especially in areas where it is common to not have an ambulance respond immediatly.
Plan now...be ready now.

In addition to our ambulance that rolls to all fire calls, we have one additional unit for the FAST, and another on standby for ours, both for additional calls and if we transport anyone from the scene they can move up.
Our county regs require a dedicated ambulance just for the FAST to be on scene, being its a county FAST.
We require all interiors to get rehabbed after their second air bottle. They need vitals checked, re-hydration and monitoring for heat related illness. This is a mandatory 15 minute brake before they can return to the scene.

Onondaga county made the response times of the departments in the county public this year and I like how they did it. They listed chiefs and suppression apparatus second. The also listed the percentage of time the home department was beat in by auto aid (nearly every structural response outside the City of Syracuse gets significant auto aid). It was food for plenty of discussion. One department has already been absorbed by a neighboor and other discussion have occured.
I agree this takes time but makes our response safer and we arrive with better intelegence.

What can we take from this?
-Sometimes you have to imagine how things will play out in the paper and the damage that can be done to the reputation of your orginization.
-If your an officer be the officer. It is your job to be the voice of reason when things get out of hand.
-It's 2011 this is how things are we are not going back to the old days.
The alleged conduct is both illegal and sick. Instead of making this thread another gripe about a black eye for the fire service lets try to be vigilant and do our jobs and make the tough decisions to keep or orginizations on the level.

This thread is like Déjà Vu. We've seen how many threads with the same information?
1. We identity the problem exists. Check. No secret there. I'm not sure anyone with a modicum of common sense would disagree.
2. A bunch of people offer legitimate suggestions (or sarcastic, yet pertinent jokes about it.)
3. The next day, nothing actually changes.
I think a more productive thread would focus on how do we finally bring pressure to bear on the decision makers.