Monty

as far as the actual emergency declaration goes. The journal news published that the crash radio traffic is available on liveatc.net. this guy was a pilot with over 50 years of flying experience and had done an emergency landing in the past, where all on board walked away, so it's quite obvious that something went drastically wrong that he couldn't make it back to the airport. In the beginning he actually held it together and was really calm on the radio. That's as far as I'm going to go with that. I will say that I listened to quite a bit of radio traffic that day and it sounded (obviously I wasn't there so I'm just going by what I heard) like things were very well run. A good point as to the weather, and terrain, etc was made also. Maybe it was overkill, but I too am of the better to respond with more than you need then have the rigs put back in to service then to respond with less and have to call for additional help. Remember to a degree, if you have to wait for additional manpower and apparatus to arrive, it may slow things down a little bit. I think the main thing here is that this was a very tragic accident and there were 4 people including two kids that lost their lives here. Having worked 45 medic 1 back in the day and knowing the departments that responded, I doubt (at least to a degree) that people stayed out of service to gawk at the site for any extended period of time. People who have not seen a plane crash up close and personal may have stayed for a few minutes, but I doubt anyone came even close to staying until the bodies were offloaded as I'm sure each and every one of us have seen plenty of bodies in our careers. Maybe the policy regarding response to this type of incident needs to be reviewed as I'm sure it will be, but in my honest opinion, you're gonna be damned if you do or damned if you don't in this scenerio. Send too many units out and it's overkill, don't send enough units and you didn't take the situation serious enough. Quite frankly I'd rather be the dispatcher getting my butt chewed for sending too much stuff there. I also think that we all know plenty of people who work 60 Control and know that they are some of the most professional and well trained dispatch staff out there.

First I would like to say that all involved with the response did a great job.
There has been a lot of planning that has gone into the Westchester County Airport Response Plan over the years. The plan has evolved quite a bit since its inception. It is still not perfect, but is always evolving.
The pilot declared an emergency right after takeoff; the plane tried to get back to the airport but obviously didn’t make it.
The airport operations contacted 60 Control and declared a Level 2 Alert. The plan alert categories are based on the type of plane, how many passengers, and how much fuel on board. This Cessna 210 should have been in the Alert level 1 category.
Right from the start, there was a larger response because the wrong alert was made. That being said, the operations staff had no idea where the plane was because it went off radar. So the ICs kept all units coming in until more information was received. There are several businesses and homes in the area surrounding the airport and if the plane had crashed into a structure, that level of response may have been needed.
Reports came in through the security guards at MBIA that the plane was in the woods behind their building. All units were directed towards that address.
Battalion 19 and 2022 set up the IC and the command post. Battalion 11, 2023, 2393, EMS 11, and Port Chester EMS along with firefighters entered the wooded area to see what the wreckage looked like, what resources would be needed, and to determine if there were any survivors. Upon their arrival, there were no survivors found, but there was some significant fire. The wreckage was approximately 1000 ft. into the woods, with some rough terrain. Hose lines weren’t stretched, they decided to use Indian tanks and water cans to extinguish the fire as well as the DES and Hawthorne FD gators with the water pumps. Please note that in this area, there are NO fire hydrants. So having the extra water on the fire apparatus was helpful.
The Westchester County Airport Response plan is for when a plane crashes on the property of the Westchester County Airport. This plan is no longer in effect if the plane crashes offsite. This plane did crash offsite in Armonk FDs district however since the call originally came in as an alert to the airport, the Alert 2 response was welcome until they got a handle on what the situation was.
Once the wreckage was found and the fire was extinguished, most of the apparatus was released fairly quickly. However due to the scene being deep into the woods, and the nature of the weather that day, it was helpful to have the extra manpower at the scene. Maybe all the apparatus wasn’t needed, but most of the manpower and additional water was helpful. EMS remained on scene for Rehab. Harrison EMS provided rehab and did an excellent job.
Now on to why each alert has the level of response it does. The Airport property falls in three separate fire department jurisdictions and three EMS jurisdictions, all departments involved send apparatus to the scene. Armonk FD only sends their tanker and then 2 ambulances because they know there is no need to send additional fire apparatus due to what Purchase FD and Port Chester FD responds with. Port Chester FD responds with their minimum level that is in the agreed upon contract with Rye Brook. That is contractual and cannot be changed without changing their contract. Purchase FD responds with a rescue, engine and ladder. All of which can be needed based whether the plane hits a structure on the airport grounds. When the plan was developed, although the alerts are based on the size of the aircraft, the possibility of that aircraft hitting one of the many structures on the airport grounds (including the terminal) was considered when developing the level of response.
Also, for the comment about additional EMS resources needed to be placed in the plan, on an alert level three there are 6 EMS agencies dispatched as well as their ALS fly cars to the scene. That is a minimum of 10-12 ambulances on initial dispatch. When a crash occurs and an estimated # souls on board is determined, then specific number of EMS task forces will be requested by the IC. A task force consists of either 3 BLS ambulances and 2 ALS ambulances or 5 BLS ambulances a 2 ALS fly cars.
A lot of good airport operations people, experienced firefighters, fire chiefs, emergency mangers, and EMS officials have put a lot of time and effort in making this plan as good as it can be, it has certainly come a very long way since the first plan written. There are some difficulties since it is in three jurisdictions, but all of them do the best that they can to make it work. It is a very unique situation and can criticized over and over again. Until you are responding to an area dealing with multi-jurisdictions (Fire/EMS/Police/Federal/Airport Ops/County), please understand it is not as easy as you think. In this particular case, there was also three police agencies involved, so there were a lot of hands in the pot. But no responders got hurt and everyone went home safe.
Representatives from each agency involved with the airport response meet monthly to continually update the plan. And yes, an AAR will be held to review this event.
Please remember, a plane can fall out of the sky anywhere, is your department ready if it happens in your jurisdiction?

Here's something from Ford discussing different conspicuity options available. Everything from car color to sirens.
https://www.fleet.ford.com/showroom/CVPI/pdfs/BRP_Report_Out_Countermeasures.pdf
A 2004 paper from the US Fire Administration...
http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/fa-272.pdf
Reflective striping works. Its too bad you think its ugly, but it works.

Chevrons and similar patterns have been standard on British, and other european, rigs for many many years; I don't buy 'marketing', I think they're playing catch-up and perhaps to a degree dealing with issues of 'tradition'.
Me, I don't give a damn what a rig looks like so long as the rig works. Paint it pink with purple chevrons on it if some credible studies show they're marginally the most helpful colours.
In the UK battenbergs are also widely used. Here's a paper giving some background to this stuff:
http://theheap.net/files/14-04-high-conspicuity-livery.pdf
Mike

I'm not sure what type of material you're seeing, but I can tell you with certainty that our apparatus with chevrons are far more visible to drivers with headlights on at night, and at a far greater distance to boot. The actual amount of reflection back out is unnecessary and unwanted as it could impair vision. The unit should become more visible, not more of a distraction. We (the fire service) have been stressing the reduction of lights and strobes that impair drivers for the more passive high visibility standard. While 3M may be benefiting, in this case I don't see it as a profit driven mandate.You're correct in saying drivers who are distracted will still hit apparatus, though I'm betting on a reduction in the percentage of incidents to apparatus struck. By reducing the "strobe light" distraction we are in fact making the area around the apparatus and emergency safer for our personnel operating on the roadway.
The other part to the standard is the chevron pattern that has been studied over the years by DOT here and similar counterparts worldwide. The angle and direction of the chevron when properly applied reportedly effects the subconscious brain and "tells" drivers to steer away. This is why all bridge and tunnels have the split chevrons on both sides directing you into the middle vs. to the outboard sides. DOT trucks carry often carry signage with the half-chevrons to place in the appropriate lane to direct motorists properly.
Without a doubt, just like lights and sirens, many FD's go way overboard and make their apparatus into moving retro-reflective billboards which actually impairs the intent of the basic package. While many of us are stuck in our traditional ways, a fire truck is red, ambulances are white with orange, etc. we cannot ignore scientifically proven methods that will make the emergency scene safer for our personnel. Personally I'm over the traditional look issues and am much more apt to look at function over form. This may be unpopular at times, but when you look at doing things for the right reasons and the benefits are tangible, it's really for the best.

abaduck - Mike Ross, he doesn't hide is name, is, for the record, a registered Republican, more libertarian than anything else. Certainly not a liberal. He didn't respond earlier because he's spent the day at the FTC doing rescue tech, and joined in the good-natured banter involving one of the other students, an LEO.
He's so anti-police that he was in the in the middle of joining the police, as a volunteer cop in the UK, before that was cut short by our moving to the USA. He's given serious thought to joining the volunteer PSEF here in Westchester, but has back-burnered that due to too many other commitments.
Yes, sometimes I debate - I have questions and opinions about police actions on occasions. About the only time I think I could be said to have been out of line was the recent thread on the Philly open carry guy, and enough LEOs here told me how and why I was wrong I manned up, said OK I was wrong, and apologised.
All I wanted to do was update people on what was happening; a lot of people discussed this case, and a story on the latest developments caught my eye. I often end up reading something and someplace down the line it's 'I wonder what happened about X? How did that play out?'
That's all there was to it. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and JJB531, I respectfully think you're out of line here.
Mike

Ok so the next time someone is trapped in a confined space, you should jump in unequipped to save them (note 60% of those that do this have died)
or
someone is trapped in an unshored trench, you should jump in to save them
or
a sniper is taking shots in an open lot, instead of waiting for properly trained and equipped LEO's you should run into the kill zone because you are a human (but not likely after the shooting stops).
or
a fully involved fire, no gear, no SCBA, because someone said my baby is in there (he was refering to his car or her cat.)
I am not saying we should not go in harms way, but we have policies to improve the chances of both the victim and the rescuers.
Without the training & equipment, your death does not help this victim or the next one. Some here have said we are no 1 and the victim is no 2, An instructor of mine many years ago said we were no 7.
No 1. is the rescuer
No 2. is his family (particularly his children)
No 3. is his partner or crew (some say #2 & 3 should flip flop)
No 4. is the dept. (which will be hurt by his death)
No 5. is the municipality or communicty (which will have to pay for the loss or litigation and thus will reduce service to the next victim)
No 6. is all the lawyers that will be litigating this case
No 7. is the idiot who most likely put himself into this position (and if rescued,will probable try again next week [even if the rescuers are killed in this attempt]).
How dare you speak for those hero's. They were well trained, well equipped, well staffed, following long established policies and the extremly well respected Operations officer (Ray Downey) stated shortly before the collapse and his death that the buildings would come down but he thought there was enough time to resuce many/most of the people inside and still pull out in time.
This is not the same, do not use 9-1-1 to put down others, their is no comparison. thank you.

I think the editorial sums up the thoughts of the Tea Party. How dare she compare the LODD in SF to this incident. I can see how your feelings as an 18-21 year old might be this. Some of us have responsibilities and as fire officers your number one job is to make sure your members go home.
I don't know how hard it is to comprehend 55 degree water, victim a football field away, weighted 300 pounds, suicidal, PD incident, no equipment.
Plus once the IC said no one enter I would expect a legitimate orginization to follow orders like these guys did. While tragic it could have been worse.

I gotta say..that thank god I don't work under some of you in the IMS. Then again..what some of you say...you wouldn't tell me crap as my knowledge supercedes anyone's authority.
1 court case is enough..and here in NY that precedent has been set when NFPA 1403 was cited in the trial of the Asst. Chief involved in the Lairdsville incident. Most departments can comply with the majority of the standards with minimal to no cost. The largest majority are out of their hands without having to sign a waiver for apparatus, equipment manufacturing standards. Whoever said that NFPA standards are crippling...you need a reality check...as most are born out of idiots doing stupid crap...that killed one or many of us.
As far as some of the other comments. I crack up at how so many of you are so willing to actually discuss this matter when we truly don't know many of the details that are needed to come close to some of the comments your making. There are 3 incident priorities...1. Life Safety and we often talk about them being 1A...us....1B them. Right here is there a life safety issue...yes..but as JJB said this was a distraught individual whom brought more risk to the 1A side. Face down or not...and those "teenagers" on cape code...are trained and certified to do what they do...and they also have equipment they carry to do so.
As far as "Commander discretion"...isn't that every incident in all reality?
Remember one thing...there is a real fine line between "heroism" and "stupidity." Heroism often is nothing more then a ridiculously stupid act that just happened to work out. Think about how many people have died doing something that we all know didn't make any sense...but the ones that actually do make it..we call a hero.
I'd live to hear what some of you would have to say if some brothers went into the water..and one didn't come out. Give me a break. Do I think things more then likely should have gone a little better...yes

Yes, the IC made the request to 60 Control for the helo. This was based on the recommendation from 36M1 who went thru the chain of command and asked for it.
The first ambulance was on the scene almost at the same time as 2641 and I. They came up to the scene and got buried by our Rescue and some MTA PD units. Instead of wasting time, I requested the 2nd ambulance to transport the patient to the LZ. As 7586 said, we didn't need it, as we were able to move the vehicles so 55B1 could transport to the LZ.

Too bad he didn't speak in front of the education department as well. Hopefully his testimony is passed on.
As a high school teacher, I can't tell you how happy I am to hear someone say this. Those have been my thought for far too long. There are some students in my classes who should definitely pursue a path other than college. I don't think society (or their parents) realize how important other career paths are and that they shouldn't be seen as consolation prizes. Keeping students who would truly benefit from a learning environment other than a classroom in a desk for four years helps no one - the student, society, etc. High schools used to offer classes like "shop". While those classes weren't meant to teach someone everything there was to know about carpentry, etc, at least students would be exposed to those essential skilled labor fields. If the class served to interest the student, they had an idea that there was something out there for them to study. I remember coming home with all sorts of stuff I made out of wood, metal, etc. I can't say I was great at it, but at least those classes were offered. And I knew how to use most of the tools in the classes already from when I helped my dad rebuild the porch, work on the car, etc. It's rare to find a school that offers classes like than anymore. There are the BOCES programs for students around Westchester (and other parts of NYS), but enrollment is often limited.
I've been reading educational literature lately in which there is a push for "college or career readiness". I've yet to see that happen, but it would be great if it ever did.

Read the article on lohud about the FBI profile for FF arsonists and tell me there is not someone that fits that profile in every department...
Additionally, the article on FF arsonists in Lower Hudson Valley left off what I though was a rather glaring example from a few years ago...

I should re-phrase my earlier statement to I disagrees with many of the structural statements. I do agree that the photo shows there is a potential to create interesting fire fighting tactical challenges. Fire and steel are not an ideal mix especially when they are in a confinded area. Protection of the steel members are determined by three items: type of construction, occupancy classification and general height and area limitations established by the N.Y.S. Uniform Building Code. In this scenario, I would not expect to see the steel protected. I find protected structures to be found often in large public assembly and health care facilities. The photo posted by Bullseye is a good photo of the roof purlins (steel) that have suffered under fire conditions. The steel in this case is light weight and similar to that seen in pre-engineered metal warehouse buildings spanning between the main steel bents that that span the distance of the building. Johnny OV mentioned the fire in the cars interior reached 1,000 Deg. C, (1,830 Deg. F) which is hot. A candle also burns at the same temperature. For the most part, this scenario to me is no differant than any departments that have buildings with a port-cochere where people are dropped off so they are out of the weather. A car could possibly catch fire underneith it... Structural damage is highly possible. I have seen plenty of port-cocheres with dry sprinkler systems just for that situation.
In our photo, I don't think the design intent was for a car to park under the structure as much as as it is a passageway. I would bet that a car fire under the overhang would be more likely to start a fire in the interior building above through convection if not extinguished in a reasonable amount of time. I would also bet by looking at the size of the steel members, that a car could burn and self extinguish before the steel deflected enough to fail. You have three open sides where the heat build-up would not raise enough for that steel to fail. It would be an interesting test! Good post Batt2!

I posted this photo because I believe this method of construction has implications to firefighters. Many methods of construction are adept at holding up the load under normal circumstances. I beams are very strong and are widely used in buildings. (And they are usually enclosed in a protection membrane or coated with a fire retardant.)
The method of construction in this picture has obviously worked for many years and probably will hold the load under normal circumstances. That said, I find concern that during a fire, the unprotected steel could cause collapse to the building it supports. A fire in the building to the left or an auto fire underneath could easily cause failure of the I beam. Firefighters responding at night in the building to the left might not immediately see that the building to the right is held up by steel which is being heated up.
Recently at a fire in Yonkers, a cockloft fire heated an I beam and pushed out a parapet wall, narrowly missing some firefighters. Steel elongates once heated. "Heated to 1000 deg. F, a steel member will expand 9 1/2 inches over 100 ft. of length...at temperatures above 1000 deg. F,...steel starts to soften and fail, depending upon load." (* p.272)
*All serious firefighters should read "Building Construction for the Fire Service" by Francis Brannigan. Chapter 7, titled "Steel Construction" is particularly relevant to this discussion. Be safe.

Sssshhh...it really is EFD's Rescue 5 making a comeback. At the last minute they're going to switch out the door decals. But at the apparatus show, who's going to bother looking at a new Rescue if it says Eastchester on the doors?
Here's how the conversation would go..
FF1 (name is Chester): "Woo wee...that sure is a pretty Rescue Vinny..."
FF2 (name is Vinny): "Chester, Eastchester..Where the hell is that?"
FF1: "It's up in Westchester."
FF2: "Run that by me one more time Chester..."
FF1: "It's only a few miles south of Port Chester.."
FF2: "And that's in Westchester Chester?"
FF1: "Yes. Port Chester and Eastchester are in Westchester."
FF2: "Where is the beer concession Chester?"
FF1: "THIRD BASE!"

So Brunacini was wrong, Huh ?
Hear about the Hydrogen atom who was all upset?
His friend said "Whats wrong?" He answered "I lost my electron!"
"Are you sure?" said his friend.
"Yes, I'm positive"
Apologies to those in the Nuke industry. You've heard it 100 times, but for the rest, it might be funny.

When the numbers are broken down, it really looks terrible. Summed up, the FDNY protects 8x the population with 40% of the equipment. You can't get into a literal comparison, because it's apples and oranges, but those numbers certainly call for some sort of review. Response times don't HAVE to suffer either. You don't have to close down each firehouse, but you could reduce the equipment compliment by consolidation. Perhaps rescue companies could be made up of some sort of task force between multiple agencies. Maybe each dept. doesn't need to have a Rear-mount AND a platform. Two neighboring departments could make use of one each and have dual responses.
There are many ways to reduce an AMAZING redundancy of apparatus without hindering response times or levels of service.
8, 10, 15+ million dollar firehouses are a completely different story. I think a departments quarters should be nice and offer some comforts and maybe a luxury or two to entice guys to spend more time there. Thats fine. However, when I go to work in a 100+ year old firehouse that is LITERALLY crumbling, it makes you scratch your head at some of these palaces being built. Somehow 50 people (11 at a time) manage to work, eat, train and respond to many thousands of alarms each year out of this small and well worn firehouse. Plenty of volunteer organizations do quite well with comfortable and conservative quarters. If your willingness to participate hangs on how nice your firehouse is, you need to reevaluate your priorities.

Here's a thought, are the number of events increasing or is the amount of "up-to-the-minute" 24 hour a day media coverage of these events increasing. Lets face it - 1 earthquake/wildfire/flood/etc = 24/7 coverage on 5 networks for 2+ weeks and front page news stories for 3 to 4 days because it sells and it stays in the forefront with every possible spin from the wind to the people trapped to the earth crust to global warming to you name it. It gives the impression that the world is ending but when you take a step back you realize nothing has really changed that much.

In a word, yes but there is a much larger risk of an Earthquake under New York City than a tsunami ever hitting the East Coast. Without going to deep into the geophysics and geology of the issue, the tectonic plate that comprises the entire East Coast and all the US upto California is moving away from its boardering plates. This creates a rift valley (the mid-atlantic trench). The rift valley is fairly stable because that is where the new oceanic crust is formed from the magma bellow. Where this earthquake, creating the tsunami occurred is at a subduction zone, where one plate flows under another. These are significantly less stable, especially in Japan where a heavier oceanic crust is flowing under a lighter continental crust. The rift valley that is forming in the atlantic is where two oceanic crusts with similar densities are splitting apart. Basically, there are significantly different geologic processes occurring in the Atlantic vs. the Pacific. This crustal movement is why we find different types of fossils on different continents, essentially where the land masses are currently is not where they were 100 million years ago, which is not where they were 500 million years ago, which is not where they were 1 billion years ago, which is not where they where 4 billion years ago. While you can not say that it will never happen, the planetary forces that are at work, and have been at work since the dawn of time make it very, very unlikely, but not impossible.
If anyone wants my sources or links or any further info PM me because I really do not want to get too in-depth with the science here because it really is very technical and unless you really do know what is being discussed, it will not make any sense to you and actually confuse you more. The only reason I commented is because this is one aspect of a larger topic my advisor and professors have been studying for 30 years.

Is this a dig? If so, it's not particularly constructive... In fact, there is nothing funny about it, but it raises a real concern.
This is not to call into question the dedication of a particular organization's firemen, nor their professionalism and drive. Really, it doesn't need to be discussed in relation to ANY particular fire department. What an MCI such as this might highlight is a need for an MCI response plan that includes multiple agencies......or some kind of consolidation to form a larger agency with the means and necessity for more equipment.
I did not respond to this box yesterday, but I was at work and listening. There were an incredible amount of units on the scene to mitigate this disaster. Rescues 3 and 4 operated including, at least Collapse Rescue 3. That's 12 firemen, on top of an entire first alarm assignment. 39 pairs of hands. Add to that a few chief's and their aides, plus ESU and a FAST truck (Which sounds like a good idea to me when you have members working in a large, unstable and overturned bus). Top that off with 10+ EMS units, FDNY RAC 4 with temp. morgue set-up and Haz-Mat 1 to manage the fuel containment. That was all within the first few minutes. Many more followed. I'm sure you can up the tally with a great deal of DOT and Police units.
All of these resources and they had their hands full. These are people used to working together with a great deal of equipment at their disposal. More equipment than most Westchester Dept's. (outside of the bigger cities, Yonkers, NR, ect) have. So, what do you do? Who calls for what units and equipment? This seems like a perfect example of a need to utilize some kind of automatic response matrix with multiple F.D., P.D. and EMS agencies with a predetermined I.C. to maintain organization.
Clearly, and thankfully, this is an oddball event and no one knows exactly what to expect or how to perfectly handle each incident. However, it would be a good idea to consider what MIGHT be needed so that the proper personnel and apparatus are alerted quickly.

Maybe the signage is there to keep people out? You know, you need a confine space permit to retrieve anything from inside the cap? It has restricted/limited entry/exit, is large enough for entry and to perform work, yet not designed for continuous occupancy. Add in the CO poisoning issues inside caps and you now have a permit required confined space! Man I shoulda been a lawyer!

This topic has strayed VERY far, however the debate has been interesting, if not all-together original.
As for indemnification; I certainly support the notion that volunteers should be protected. I also agree that serving your community as a volunteer fireman is not the same as doing work with the local soup kitchen. That said, to what extent are we looking to grant indemnity? If we examine driving and all the responsibility it entails, you'll find one of the most stressful positions a fireman can be assigned. I'll tell you this right now, the regulations regarding an engine or ladder co. chauffeur are extremely vague. The regs. are filled with terms like, "due regard" and such. This leaves the city JUST enough rope to hang you with. If a guy is in a major accident, HE is most certainly on the hook and can be found at fault. What happens to a chauffeur if he gets in an accident? That goes on HIS personal driving record. What does he get in return? Well, he gets chauffeur pay.....which isn't much more than $1,000 dollars a year. That isn't even enough to pay your car insurance. A company is assigned 4 "Seated chauffeurs". They are scheduled in such a way that they do most of the driving. In a single year, they'll probably combine to drive that rig 8,000-10,000. That's probably 10 years worth of miles on most volunteer rigs.
This can all be dwarfed by the officers responsibility. One single person is responsible for 4 or 5 in his charge. If a company officer departs from standard operating procedures or fails to account for the actions of his men, do you think that he's not responsible? He is! A chief officer standing in the street has a great deal of information coming his way. He has a great deal of people working under his charge and they're all in harms way. If something happens with tragic results, you can bet that chief officer is going to be run through the wringer to determine if there was negligence on his part.
We need to provide people with adequate protection for the work they do, however we do not need to protect people from negligence. Career and volunteer, we all strive to be "professional" and part of that stature is to be held to a high standard. If you fail to meet that standard you can be held liable.
Just to stray momentarily off the topic again:
I was a member of 3 volunteer organizations over the course of about 10 years. I'm grateful to have "honorary membership" status with one of those fine institutions, which I had to move away from. I believe that there is a need for volunteer firemen in many communities in some form or another, combo or otherwise. I know that some of these organizations are run very well and others are not. Some guys are very reliable, into the work and well trained and others are not. An unfortunate, but very clear fact is that training standards are not the same. I had taken upwards of 200 hours of county and state fire courses prior to going through the fire academy at The Rock. It. Is. Not. The. Same. Not one bit. This is not due to a lack of effort on the parts of those attending training classes, nor those teaching the classes, however, the resources they have come up short. There simply isn't enough manpower to run drills and exercises with the students at the same pace and intensity. Instructors simply cannot demand the same from volunteers that they can from subordinate employees. That, however, is not the be all and end all.

I have been thinking of starting this discussion for the past couple of weeks.
How does your Department MANDATE that it's members are trained to a certain level of professionalism?
Is this mandate in writing, and if so is every member provided a copy of the Departments' policy?
For Volunteer FD's is this policy in Department/Company By-Laws, SOP/SOG, or other?
For Career FD's is this policy in the Union Contract, SOP/SOG, or other?
What level of training must members maintain after initial training?
Let's see where we all are, or where we should be.

I posted this on another site , but it fits just as well here.
Just want to take a moment during this holiday season to pass along the following thoughts............
To all:
Although we disagree, sometimes fiercely, and each of us harbors our own views and defends them staunchly, during this Holiday season let us all take a moment to stop and reflect on just how lucky we are to be able to serve in good health and with the true spririt of the service in our hearts. I may not agree with any of you but I do respect your commitment to the Fire Service and to those you serve faithfully. No matter how opposite your views may be from mine, I just want to take the opportunity here to thank each of you for your insight and opinions expressed on these many pages.
Merry Christmas and a Happy and Healthy New Year to you and your families in and out of the firehouse.....
Cogs

I do think there are many people that could benefit from reading this report. A lot of the regulations are CYA - however if having a training program on the proper use of respiratory protection saves one person then it is worth it. Of course it's very difficult to prove that you saved someone because you had proper training on having the SCBA secured properly to your self ...
I'm sure that there are some that would disagree but I think there are some regulations that are more important to follow than others. Not to say that others should be disregarded but concentrate on the most important ones first. PESH is liking adding insult to injury - they really only seem to come in to the picture once something bad has happened.