Bnechis

3 years ago the Province of Quebec ordered 100's of its FD's to merge. They mad it simple since they collect & redistribute the taxes. In talking with fire officers from Montreal, they said they had never done Mutual aid before the consolidation they said the biggest challanges included different types of equipment, no common radios, different terminology and here is the best one, 25% of the departments only speak english while the majority only french.
They claimed that as of last March it was working well.
If they can get past those issues and we already do work together, we should have no problem.
The big issue in most consolidations (like No. Hudson or Quebec's) it was forced on the FD's by the oversight governments. We are proposing to do this on our terms.

Well said, Thanks Chris. Unfortinatly it has become very clear that many are not in it for the public. To many politicians are afraid of lossing power, same for the unions, volunteers, and some of the chiefs (I say some, because they supported the study). Now I have always said that consolidation is in the best interest of the members (as well as the public). Arriving with enough ff's to be safe, requiring enough officers to supervise (thus also promoting more officers)and not having to fight for table scraps (tax base)is in every firefighters best interest. With the issues that are affecting many of the depts in the study (Budget cuts, layoffs and forced ellimination).
"We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately" - Benjamin Franklin (How ironic that he was a fire chief).
What is coming down the road over the next 3-5 years will shape the fire service, if we do not lead this change, it will roll right over the top of us.
But, I am sure that many will try hard to dispute the idea. I believe that consolidation is coming, I do not know if it will be during my career, my lifetime or my childs, but it will happen. Then we will look back at this time in the future and question why we did not fight harder to make it happen sooner.Yonkers is the only dept that meets the 3ff/1of per rig and 16 ffs/of on a 1st alarm, but that does not meet NFPA 1710. The standard also says that staffing is based on a 2,000 sq ft structure without a basement. Based on that YFD is under staffed and all other depts. are in worst shap than YFD.
They are not even close and almost every thread here has shown that. Yes they would, but we would not want that because ____ (fill in BS reason here) & pound on ones chest at the same time.
If that fire occured in any of the other 57 departments in Westchester we would make the cover of every magazine in the country. THe only difference from one dept to another would be the body count. This is when the public will start asking questions of their fire chief and this is when the "we did our best" will be tested in the court of public opinion.
Because it cant work, I will no longer be king, just because it works everywhere else does not mean it will work here, We dont needed it since everything here is perfect, We cant work with them they have yellow trucks....etc....etc...

Front suctions have a number of disadvantages:
Added cost(in the $40,000 range)
Added maintenance (we had 4 rigs with them, 3 cracked from there own weight, 1 was damaged in an MVA and when we found out the cost to repair, it was removed.
High Friction loss - with all the turns it is generally equal to 100' of hose to travel 15 feet. This reduces the amount of water that can be pumped. When we had a 6" front suction on my engine we maxed at 1,150 gpm. a 6" steamer can do 1,500 - 2,000 gpm.
In some designs it increases the turning radius
The best one is many MPO's tend to nose the engine into the hydrant when they have it. This can push the tail end out into the street. At a MA call about 2 years ago I got a great pic of an engine doing just that and cutting off the tower ladder that was now 500 feet from the fire building.
The way we keep the MPO safe from traffic is to bring the line in on the right (or left if needed) steamer connection.

They could not have done this 500 posts ago?

Front suctions have a number of disadvantages:
Added cost(in the $40,000 range)
Added maintenance (we had 4 rigs with them, 3 cracked from there own weight, 1 was damaged in an MVA and when we found out the cost to repair, it was removed.
High Friction loss - with all the turns it is generally equal to 100' of hose to travel 15 feet. This reduces the amount of water that can be pumped. When we had a 6" front suction on my engine we maxed at 1,150 gpm. a 6" steamer can do 1,500 - 2,000 gpm.
In some designs it increases the turning radius
The best one is many MPO's tend to nose the engine into the hydrant when they have it. This can push the tail end out into the street. At a MA call about 2 years ago I got a great pic of an engine doing just that and cutting off the tower ladder that was now 500 feet from the fire building.
The way we keep the MPO safe from traffic is to bring the line in on the right (or left if needed) steamer connection.

Hi everyone
I am a recent retiree from the Dist in question. You all know by my nickname, who I am. I have read the post on this subject and can agree with some and wonder about others.
I went to the Commissioners meeting last night and was surprised at the conversation that took place. Since this was a public meeting I can discuss what most of the meet was about. There are training problems here, the Commissioners have tried without success to train 100% of the volunteers FFs. They have tried for over 2 years to get everyone in sync with the state and federal standards. They have let FFs go and now they have the wolf at the door and must expel members and notify them by certified mail. These infractions are mostly for noncompliance(OSHA, Repritor test, bail-out, policy, Etc) The Commissioners discussed at length and were disappointed that not all volunteers made the grade after 2 years.
I can no longer make suggestions as a FF, but as a concerned citizen. I can only tell you how I feel and my experience with this district. As a CFF I did not like when Police Officers or Career firefighters from other Depts volunteered here and I knew that if I went to thier jobs to volunteer it would be a differant story. I was told by one career firefighter that he volunteered because he'll never make rank at his job, but could be a chief here. The one eyed man is king in the land of the blind. This CFF also had better benefits then I and better pay, but did not mind stepping on my toes when it came down to benefits for me and my family. Which made me very defensive of my job.
After speaking to some CFFs and VFFs I now know that there has been problem at most of the recent fires. The blame game is going around in circles. There was a shortage of FFs to launch an interior attack and the few VFFs that could respond at least you were there. I am not going to second guess any decissions that were made by IC because I was not there. He made decissions on what he had and what he seen.
Standard staffing at this time is:
2 CFFs @ HQ(L35,E25?,R32)
1 CFF @ Sta-2(R75,E253,L10)
1 CFF @ Sta-3 (R80,E254)
1 CFF @ Sta-4 (U11,U50,E25?)
There has been cutbacks and there has not been any CFFs hired in almost 7 years. Is this a sign of the times I don't think so. Times were good and they still refused to hire. Guys say here that CFFs shortages are a sign of the times, well stand back and think are you working more, maybe a second job, whatever, your availablity to respond is alot less. They'er 7 positions that should be covered 4 shifts and 3 vacation floaters. There used to be 3 till 60c took dispatch 1 was dropped from HQ. As CFFs retired or transfered to other depts vacation floaters were put in permenent posts all openings are now covered by OT. OT will probably be the next complaint that the CFFs make to much. We all know that we went into this career for love and not the money. The CFFs that work @ Sta 2,3,4 are alone for their entire shift. The work force is shifting from 20s thru 40s to late 30s thru 50s, this is a problem. Without that shot of young blood more injuries and more absenteeism will happen causing a financial problem for the district.
As a concerned citizen I would hope that the career ranks are returned to there full strenght. That the second Lieutenant position be replaced so that the strain of training 32 CFFs and 60 or so VFFs to standards could be accomplished in a timely manner. They are other concerns that I have but these seem to be the most pressing at this time. By bringing the training standards for VFFs up to regulated specks this would make a more harmonious fire district for everyone.
There are facts and opinions in this post if you wish to call me out on any of these please do. I will try to answer your intelligent questions.

Nice to see. As Chief Flynn, ALS, Myself and others have been trying to bring people around to this.
Because we spend our money on too many trucks, too many stations, etc. We have a number of depts that cover 1 square mile with 3 engines, a tower ladder, a rescue and 3 chiefs and they are only handling a couple 100 calls per year (1 or 2 and actual fire). All of those counties cover larger areas with fewer rigs, but they are fully staffed, properly trained and backed up within less time than it takes for some of the VFD's here to get a crew out the door. Also how good do you get when you only do a few calls each year?
Great so now what? Just let everyone suffer, good planning. Lets sope calling exterior only personnel firefighters. Lets call them helpers. Its great that they can pack some hose and change an SCBA bottle or make a hydrant to free up real firefighters. Oh wait, they can't or won't do that. How much of your tax dollars are going to them? Your taxes paid for their turnouts, medicals, LOSAP, and a host of other perks and MY TAXES and those of all the career communities paid for the training that DES is providing for them. Oh police officer please remove this buff to the other side of the fire line, he is not one of us.
Well said. So the volunteers that do not go into the fire building do not like the state law that requires enough people outside who are willing to go in, how ironic.The morale issue has been a problem there for over 8 years. The career firefighters were included in the Westchester Special Operations Task Force and were trained in Yonkers to be Hazmat/WMD Technician and were going to become squad 7. But after completing all of the training and getting federal money to fund the equipment, the commissioners determined that having the ability to respond to a chemical emergency would hurt the dept moale to the point that they ordered the career staff to drop out. Silly of me to think that when an elected official swore on a bible that they would do what is in the best interest of the community, they would actually keep politics out. Since these vacancies occured over 7 years and most during the best economic times we have seen in decades, I suspect this has nothing to do with the recession. Its a very tough sell when you can not even convince the members that they have a problem when a department with 6 frontline rigs can not handle a house fire without calling the world to help. Consolidation is not a temporary fix, its a long term solution to a growing problem.

Nice to see. As Chief Flynn, ALS, Myself and others have been trying to bring people around to this.
Because we spend our money on too many trucks, too many stations, etc. We have a number of depts that cover 1 square mile with 3 engines, a tower ladder, a rescue and 3 chiefs and they are only handling a couple 100 calls per year (1 or 2 and actual fire). All of those counties cover larger areas with fewer rigs, but they are fully staffed, properly trained and backed up within less time than it takes for some of the VFD's here to get a crew out the door. Also how good do you get when you only do a few calls each year?
Great so now what? Just let everyone suffer, good planning. Lets sope calling exterior only personnel firefighters. Lets call them helpers. Its great that they can pack some hose and change an SCBA bottle or make a hydrant to free up real firefighters. Oh wait, they can't or won't do that. How much of your tax dollars are going to them? Your taxes paid for their turnouts, medicals, LOSAP, and a host of other perks and MY TAXES and those of all the career communities paid for the training that DES is providing for them. Oh police officer please remove this buff to the other side of the fire line, he is not one of us.
Well said. So the volunteers that do not go into the fire building do not like the state law that requires enough people outside who are willing to go in, how ironic.The morale issue has been a problem there for over 8 years. The career firefighters were included in the Westchester Special Operations Task Force and were trained in Yonkers to be Hazmat/WMD Technician and were going to become squad 7. But after completing all of the training and getting federal money to fund the equipment, the commissioners determined that having the ability to respond to a chemical emergency would hurt the dept moale to the point that they ordered the career staff to drop out. Silly of me to think that when an elected official swore on a bible that they would do what is in the best interest of the community, they would actually keep politics out. Since these vacancies occured over 7 years and most during the best economic times we have seen in decades, I suspect this has nothing to do with the recession. Its a very tough sell when you can not even convince the members that they have a problem when a department with 6 frontline rigs can not handle a house fire without calling the world to help. Consolidation is not a temporary fix, its a long term solution to a growing problem.

at 2:30 in the afternoon on a monday how many firefighter do you expect can show up??? try and factor in how many of these people are working , or dedicated to some other issue in their lives ??? THAT IS WHAT MUTUAL AID PLANS ARE DRAWN UP FOR give them a break. christ even my department had a lil bit of a hard time getting the engine out but we provided sufficient manpower to mohegan. Given the time of day and that no one was home we all (meaning all the dept.'s that responded) , and where the fire started and how it traveled made one hell of a stop on that house and to all the members of this site that are members of the departments that responded to that fire you/we made one good stop guys good job!!

Most agencies have the data. Some actually track that data and turn it into useful information. The big question is how many actually make available (particularly without being asked) the info? I would love to see DOH require an annual public report (that might open some eyes).
Average response time is not a good measure. If the agency responds to 10 calls in 4 minutes and one call in 25 minutes, their average is 5.4 minutes, which is very acceptable, except to the person who waited 25 minutes. As the call volume goes up a few really bad call times get lost. Fractile reporting is the standard for EMS and it basically gives a percentage of calls that EMS arrived in 4min, 5min, 20 min, etc.
American Heart Association, American Ambulance Association and NFPA have had standards in place for 25 years or more. The case in point has a population of 7,146 in 1.82 square miles (thats 3,929 people per square mile) is suburban. The standard is 4 minutes for BLS (1st response/AED with or without transport) and 8 minutes for ALS (including transport) 90% of the time.
Many agencies have given up or worst they do not tell the community it needs help and just continues to provided substandard service and hopes it will get better. It clearly can not spend tax money that it never asks for. So in a town that has 5 seperate volunteer ambulance services and a paid ALS service they can not find a solution? Maybe trying to staff 5 ambulances to cover less than 50,000 people is not the best way to make this work. At least 1 agency in town has stepped up to the plate and brought in some paid EMT's. Now if they can cover 5,000 people with paid, maybe it would be more cost effective to cover 50,000 with a few more.
Most towns have no idea what kind of job the local EMS agency is doing. Since many towns in Westchester do not pay for service, its kind of hard for them to complain or go out and contract for another service.
99% of the general public have no idea what service is or is not provided. All they know is that when they dial 911 in 4 minutes 2 paramedics will be there to save them (its that way on TV).
If agencies were truly proud of the service they provide, you would not have to ask for it. They would have it posted on the web and the annual report would be available at town hall and the library. Most dispatch centers only give that info to the agency, not the public.

Most agencies have the data. Some actually track that data and turn it into useful information. The big question is how many actually make available (particularly without being asked) the info? I would love to see DOH require an annual public report (that might open some eyes).
Average response time is not a good measure. If the agency responds to 10 calls in 4 minutes and one call in 25 minutes, their average is 5.4 minutes, which is very acceptable, except to the person who waited 25 minutes. As the call volume goes up a few really bad call times get lost. Fractile reporting is the standard for EMS and it basically gives a percentage of calls that EMS arrived in 4min, 5min, 20 min, etc.
American Heart Association, American Ambulance Association and NFPA have had standards in place for 25 years or more. The case in point has a population of 7,146 in 1.82 square miles (thats 3,929 people per square mile) is suburban. The standard is 4 minutes for BLS (1st response/AED with or without transport) and 8 minutes for ALS (including transport) 90% of the time.
Many agencies have given up or worst they do not tell the community it needs help and just continues to provided substandard service and hopes it will get better. It clearly can not spend tax money that it never asks for. So in a town that has 5 seperate volunteer ambulance services and a paid ALS service they can not find a solution? Maybe trying to staff 5 ambulances to cover less than 50,000 people is not the best way to make this work. At least 1 agency in town has stepped up to the plate and brought in some paid EMT's. Now if they can cover 5,000 people with paid, maybe it would be more cost effective to cover 50,000 with a few more.
Most towns have no idea what kind of job the local EMS agency is doing. Since many towns in Westchester do not pay for service, its kind of hard for them to complain or go out and contract for another service.
99% of the general public have no idea what service is or is not provided. All they know is that when they dial 911 in 4 minutes 2 paramedics will be there to save them (its that way on TV).
If agencies were truly proud of the service they provide, you would not have to ask for it. They would have it posted on the web and the annual report would be available at town hall and the library. Most dispatch centers only give that info to the agency, not the public.

I was teaching that to some probies when one of them said: "Im from the city, no rabbits, no trees but lots of pot holes"
So I said; "the drunk firefighter came out of the bar, staggered to the curb where he grabbed on to a street sign. He saw his wife driving up the road. He started to run, but forgot to let go of the sign, until he had spun around it and saw the bar. He let go of the sign and ran back into the bar......."
He no longer had a problem with the bowline.

Prior to talking it to death on EMTBravo, any ongoing issues with response time was just the dirty little secret in the closet. If nobody knows about it and nobody brings it forward than nobody will ever fix it.
More than 10x the number of people who post here have already read this thread. If the right person does, it may change everything.
Ways have been offered, Lots of people want to pretend all is well.

In another post this link was mentioned:
http://www.forbes.com/2010/01/15/property-taxes-high-lifestyle-real-estate-counties-assessment-taxes-chart.html?partner=msnre
Its "Where Americans Pay Most In Property Tax"
They list 20 counties in 4 different sections of the country: North East, South , Midwest and West.
Lets see what can be determined from this little snap shot:
Westchester has more Fire Depts, more water & sewer districts, more school dists, more city town, village and county government more PD,EMS agencies....more, more, more
Does this make us better? or just the most taxed county in the United States!
The 5 West coast counties have 1 FD (SF county/City also) the Median Home Value is almost 50% more, but their tax is almost Half what we pay.
In the South the 3 VA county (with county FD's) Pay half for the same value homes. The 2 Tx counties pay half for a 60-70% less value, but they also have 25-35 FD's and multiple other gov's.
The midwest pays the most after the northeast and they all have 25-35 depts.
The northeast all 5 counties set records for the most government and we pay for it.

In another post this link was mentioned:
http://www.forbes.com/2010/01/15/property-taxes-high-lifestyle-real-estate-counties-assessment-taxes-chart.html?partner=msnre
Its "Where Americans Pay Most In Property Tax"
They list 20 counties in 4 different sections of the country: North East, South , Midwest and West.
Lets see what can be determined from this little snap shot:
Westchester has more Fire Depts, more water & sewer districts, more school dists, more city town, village and county government more PD,EMS agencies....more, more, more
Does this make us better? or just the most taxed county in the United States!
The 5 West coast counties have 1 FD (SF county/City also) the Median Home Value is almost 50% more, but their tax is almost Half what we pay.
In the South the 3 VA county (with county FD's) Pay half for the same value homes. The 2 Tx counties pay half for a 60-70% less value, but they also have 25-35 FD's and multiple other gov's.
The midwest pays the most after the northeast and they all have 25-35 depts.
The northeast all 5 counties set records for the most government and we pay for it.

In another post this link was mentioned:
http://www.forbes.com/2010/01/15/property-taxes-high-lifestyle-real-estate-counties-assessment-taxes-chart.html?partner=msnre
Its "Where Americans Pay Most In Property Tax"
They list 20 counties in 4 different sections of the country: North East, South , Midwest and West.
Lets see what can be determined from this little snap shot:
Westchester has more Fire Depts, more water & sewer districts, more school dists, more city town, village and county government more PD,EMS agencies....more, more, more
Does this make us better? or just the most taxed county in the United States!
The 5 West coast counties have 1 FD (SF county/City also) the Median Home Value is almost 50% more, but their tax is almost Half what we pay.
In the South the 3 VA county (with county FD's) Pay half for the same value homes. The 2 Tx counties pay half for a 60-70% less value, but they also have 25-35 FD's and multiple other gov's.
The midwest pays the most after the northeast and they all have 25-35 depts.
The northeast all 5 counties set records for the most government and we pay for it.

In another post this link was mentioned:
http://www.forbes.com/2010/01/15/property-taxes-high-lifestyle-real-estate-counties-assessment-taxes-chart.html?partner=msnre
Its "Where Americans Pay Most In Property Tax"
They list 20 counties in 4 different sections of the country: North East, South , Midwest and West.
Lets see what can be determined from this little snap shot:
Westchester has more Fire Depts, more water & sewer districts, more school dists, more city town, village and county government more PD,EMS agencies....more, more, more
Does this make us better? or just the most taxed county in the United States!
The 5 West coast counties have 1 FD (SF county/City also) the Median Home Value is almost 50% more, but their tax is almost Half what we pay.
In the South the 3 VA county (with county FD's) Pay half for the same value homes. The 2 Tx counties pay half for a 60-70% less value, but they also have 25-35 FD's and multiple other gov's.
The midwest pays the most after the northeast and they all have 25-35 depts.
The northeast all 5 counties set records for the most government and we pay for it.

According to "M": Missles behind the headlights, a rotating licence plate, the ability to drop oil, stars or smoke and an ejection seat for the officer.
or






The light tower has 6 750 watt lights (left & right side can be adjusted independent of each other, so they can actually shine in opposite each other). The tower also has an automatic electric field monitor (the grey box on top of it) and a radar to prevent the tower from hitting anything or getting within 8 feet of powerlines.

The top....Crane, boat, light tower, storage and the "Hippo" power unit (white box in right rear corner of body).
THe Hipo unit powers 2 low volume (40cfm) air hoses, 2 hi volume(185cfm) air hoses (to run jack hammers, an air knife and dirt vacume and 2 10gpm hydraulic lines that run our stanley hydraulic tools (concrete chain saw, jack hammer, and pumps). The pumps move 1,600 gpm and unlike drafting have a lift of up to 35 feet at 100 feet from the rig.

Now the Right side

C-1 3 Fans, 3 gas saws, 1 hydraulic concrete saw, floor jack, 6 bottle jacks, H2O & DC Extingushers and portable winch.
This compartment has an automatic fan to remove fumes

C-2 upper section same as S-2 plus Rope & Confined Space Rescue Ropes & harnesses
Lower section is rigging gear and hardware


C-3 Small High Pressure Air bags and Low Pressure Air bags


C-4 Air Shores, same as S-4 plus airshore controls and end fittings


C-5 Cribbing, Ratchet Straps, 2 Farm Jacks, 6 Pickets
All that is left is the roof, I need some good weather to get those shot

Thank You!!!!
I dont know about that......but I did stay in a holiday inn last night...lol

Again my issue is if a member does not have FAST training then they are not an interior qualified firefighter.
Yes it is part of the career academy. Just because it is not included does not mean a department can't or should not require it.
When we talk about the different training standards, I find it amazing that any chief would consider sending a member (his "brother") into a working fire without having been trained in survival. And not requiring them to know what to do if a "brother" gets in trouble.
So based on previous postings and OFPC's discription of FAST, we have departments that are willing to send members into burning buildings that do not know how do the above listed skills. Why bother having a fire department at all, it is clear that these departments do not care about there members or the public if they are so willing to put themselves at risk, because 16 hours is way to much time to invest in ones brother.
PLEASE THINK LONG AND HARD ABOUT THIS....IF YOUR DEPARTMENT ALLOWS THIS, IT NEEDS TO CHANGE TODAY.

Again my issue is if a member does not have FAST training then they are not an interior qualified firefighter.
Yes it is part of the career academy. Just because it is not included does not mean a department can't or should not require it.
When we talk about the different training standards, I find it amazing that any chief would consider sending a member (his "brother") into a working fire without having been trained in survival. And not requiring them to know what to do if a "brother" gets in trouble.
So based on previous postings and OFPC's discription of FAST, we have departments that are willing to send members into burning buildings that do not know how do the above listed skills. Why bother having a fire department at all, it is clear that these departments do not care about there members or the public if they are so willing to put themselves at risk, because 16 hours is way to much time to invest in ones brother.
PLEASE THINK LONG AND HARD ABOUT THIS....IF YOUR DEPARTMENT ALLOWS THIS, IT NEEDS TO CHANGE TODAY.

Again my issue is if a member does not have FAST training then they are not an interior qualified firefighter.
Yes it is part of the career academy. Just because it is not included does not mean a department can't or should not require it.
When we talk about the different training standards, I find it amazing that any chief would consider sending a member (his "brother") into a working fire without having been trained in survival. And not requiring them to know what to do if a "brother" gets in trouble.
So based on previous postings and OFPC's discription of FAST, we have departments that are willing to send members into burning buildings that do not know how do the above listed skills. Why bother having a fire department at all, it is clear that these departments do not care about there members or the public if they are so willing to put themselves at risk, because 16 hours is way to much time to invest in ones brother.
PLEASE THINK LONG AND HARD ABOUT THIS....IF YOUR DEPARTMENT ALLOWS THIS, IT NEEDS TO CHANGE TODAY.

Again my issue is if a member does not have FAST training then they are not an interior qualified firefighter.
Yes it is part of the career academy. Just because it is not included does not mean a department can't or should not require it.
When we talk about the different training standards, I find it amazing that any chief would consider sending a member (his "brother") into a working fire without having been trained in survival. And not requiring them to know what to do if a "brother" gets in trouble.
So based on previous postings and OFPC's discription of FAST, we have departments that are willing to send members into burning buildings that do not know how do the above listed skills. Why bother having a fire department at all, it is clear that these departments do not care about there members or the public if they are so willing to put themselves at risk, because 16 hours is way to much time to invest in ones brother.
PLEASE THINK LONG AND HARD ABOUT THIS....IF YOUR DEPARTMENT ALLOWS THIS, IT NEEDS TO CHANGE TODAY.