helicopper

That is correct.
FDNY is the only department in the country that ISO rates based on actual fire damage. Everyone else is rated on their potential to minimize damage.
NYC's fire damage rate is very consistant, even if you look at 2001 there is almost no difference in the annual property loss in $$$$. THis is because of the total number of fires citywide. Also FDNY is very agressive at firefighting, but that often means more water damage and other damage to the structure, particularlry when there is minimal salvage work being performed. This is howFDNY prevents full blocks from going, but the insurance industry looks at the total dollar loss not just fire loss.

Thanks to the strong lobbying efforts of both the IAFF and the volunteer fire service (with a special notice of FASNY as the lead in this issue) NFPA has 2 different standards that address this:
NFPA 1710 for career depts requires minimum response times which limits the distance by 4 minutes drive time for the 1st due engine and 8 minutes for the rest of the 1st alarm assignment.
NFPA 1720 for VFD's lets the locals determine what they need.
ISO considers any property beyond 5 miles drive istance to be unprotected. Their standard calls for engines companies within 1.5 miles of all properties and ladders within 2.5 miles. Beyond the 1.5 & 2.5 they prorate the department based on % beyond those distances.
Agreed, this is one of the questions the the Comptroller was concerned with, what happens if the owner (this so called illegaly set up not for profit) no longer wants to rent it to the FD after 10 years? What happens if the principals are sued over this by an angry tax payer?
The report also mentions that the fire commisioners failed to meet other legal requirments, including mandatory training and purchasing in general.

I definitely agree with your first statement. The issue is that most people do not use the TIC nearly enough to be truly proficient at what they are seeing. Conversely, as noted blind reliance on the TIC is a recipe for disaster. The key to success as with nearly everything in this job, is continual training and practical application. Seeing a hot outlet, putting your hand on it and finding relevance in what the TIC is telling you is as important as knowing how to turn it on and off. For this reason, our guys take the cameras off the truck on every run. They look at things all the rime, regardless of smoke condition or actual fire. This gives you a basis to judge from. We know that shiny stainless steel in most commercial kitchens reflect the image and are inaccurate. The same goes for any glass not just mirrors. If a material reflects heat, the camera will not "see" it properly. This is just one of the little issue you learn as you handle these things more and more.
The camera can be successfully used to more surgically overhaul, rather than forcing you to use hands and tools. As always you must be able to correlate what you "see" in the TIC with what you actually see, smell, feel and hear.
I know for certain a TIC saved my bacon one night as we nearly left an "odor of smoke" in a residence and blamed it on the cool night and nearby wood burning chimney smoke. One last look throughout the living room with the TIC found a fire in the ceiling where no one could have reached it to touch. While the house was only a few doors from the station, going back for an attic fire would have not been good for anyone involved, especially your truly!

Conditions always influence tactics however I'm not one to be in favor of stretching an uncharged handline into a residential structure because of the amount of variables that are present. For one the initial stretch is often the most critical on the fireground based on the tactical objectives identified. Having a good knowledge of residential building types in your district assists with making good decisions for the location of the initial stretch. I know many of the houses in my district that stretching to the rear through the back door gives me a straight shot from that door to the basement door and straight down the stairs. Raised ranch..pretty simple...right at the front door, if the garage is attached I have egress there. Center fed colonial...basement door is often in main hallway that divides the residence in 2.
One of the biggest things with basement fires is attempting to get a read on how involved the basement area is and getting a grasp on extension. If all else fails do what is necessary to keep the fire contained to allow crews to complete searches and achieve completion of incident priority number 1...life safety.
In addition to being able to be facing the way out, going down the stairs backwards allows you to check each step with your feet prior to putting all your weight bearing down on it as well as to spread your weight out. If the stairs fail under your legs, you will still have the friction of your upper body to use to try to keep from falling through. Many instructors have been noticing firefighters going down face first and saying they have been told this. I'm not sure where this is coming from as its not an accepted practice I have read or seen in any major curriculums but most important its not a sound tactic as all your weight is on your a** which is then on a step. If any fails, you are going through.

Without fail
Absolutely. Actually entering a basement through a Bilco or other entrance door is preferable if it can be accomplished in a timley manner thus allowing the initial first floor interior line to be used to prevent fire spread up the stairwell.
Textbooks and class curriculums are wonderful tools but rarely encompass the realities of the fireground or the variables thereof. And while it may not be an accepted pratice in your area, the tactic of facing forward while going down into a basement is a sound one. Not only because you are facing the fire and therefore better able to judge the conditions, but also you maintain control of the line and have it available for immediate use in the direction you will need it should it become necessary. If the situation warrants and you need to be on your keester your feet will be in front of you feeling for the the steps and any weakness of them as you descend. Also having the line forward and at the ready allows you to hit any fire threatening the stairwell thus protecting it (and you) while helping your decent to the bottom of the stairs. As with any other evolution training and experience are the keys to success.
Never enter a fire area without a charged line and for basement fires have a control man at the top of the stairs to feed the line down whenever possible. And regardless of which direction you choose to face while descending, speed is of the essence...the last place you want to get hung up is on the stairs. All the heat, smoke and gasses are going to be headed right up that path of least resistance and becoming more and more severe for you, your fellow FFs and any victims with each passing minute

Lets cut the bull...big deal, anyone can (and did) call 911. It doesnt take a CFR, EMD, EMT, medic or doctor to tell someone to call 911. I guess you don't eat out much at all, b/c most food service locations at some point have some sort of gloves for prep. Most also have saran wrap...hello makeshift faceshield. Or ever see all those signs that sy CPR kit located behind counter? That's required by law. Perhaps you were unaware of the studies about compression only CPR being very effective? I'm sorry, I refuse to give the benefit of the doubt to two people who disgrace the uniform they were wearing and give the rest of us a bad name. Even if they were negligent and didnt perform any assesments or interventions, they still could have stayed by the patients side. At least then they would have been good human beings and New Yorkers. There are too many things that could have been done in this situation to even remotely defend these guys.
Further, I agree with the others here, they were on duty for the agecny having juristidtiction...so long as FDNY says they have to (and i highly believe they do) they had a duty to act according to NYS; there is no legal defense.

The TIC is one of the best tools we have on our rigs now, but training is even better, we have talked about the need to remember the basics, but also remember that the screen(hence victims) looks a lot different from the stations house to a working fire. We must train in live fire environments with the TIC or we will never know that in live fire conditions the victims is going to be the coolest things, not the hottest object, or that when looking for a downed firefighter in a collapse or flashover situation looks for the cool SCBA tank on his back not his outline which could be obstructed. Train often, but more importantly train realistically! Stay Safe.

How about the ISO rating that New Rochelle has. We have a rating of a 2. That equates to a great reduction in fire insurance to commercial property owners as well as homeowners. Lay off the 6 guys, don't replace the 15 we are down and close E24 or L12 and watch what the rating will be. I would bet your insurance will rise more than what it would be to keep the numbers. At least we have a new $1,000,000.00 rescue that is not manned full time. I guess there is always a silver lining to every story.

Some excellent points have been made in this thread.
A few I would add:
1. When you can't see where you are placing your foot, CRAWL! (Possible exception to this would be the nozzle man and backup man who, while advancing the line, may do the duckwalk technique previoulsy discussed)
2. The idea of a 360 recon is nice, but is often impractical...aim to get a look at at least 3 sides of the building before entering...the time you take to get an immediate look at the 4th side of the building when it is not readily accessible could allow the fire to grow exponentially and could mean the difference between life and death for anyone still inside.
3. CRAWL!!
4. Incident Commander should assign members early on to get a look at the back of the building and communicate findings to everyone on the fireground (again, this may not be practical to assign to first due Engine or Ladder Companies).
5. CRAWL!!!
6. Develop a mindset of constantly sizing up the building from a six-sided perspective. This doesn't mean you need to actually see all six-sides (all four "sides" plus what is above you and what is below you), but rather that you are "situationally aware" of there being six sides the building and that all members on the fireground are continually assessing and communicating to one another fire and smoke location, structural integrity, etc.
The biggestmistake we make is not knowing what exacctly is going on below us and getting caught above the fire sometimes.
7. CRAWL!!!!

We've equipped all three of our Engine Companies with a TIC. The Officer is to take the TIC inside for all calls, even if it isn't needed, to make it a habit.
We were denied the TIC for our Truck this year, hopefully we can get it next year.
One thing worth reminding others of is the value of a 360 recon. You may not see anything to inidicate a basement fire from the front, but side or rear windows to the basement could tell you more of what's going on. Look for windows, Bilco doors and you can even take a quick peak for dryer vents to see if smoke is coming from them.
Firehouse.com story

Its the economy....thugs cant aford slugs.....blades are reusable and no greenhouse gasses so these thugs are going green

I've heard this melting point argument in the steel versus aluminum debate time and time again as well as had discussions about it when brought up in aerial operator courses.
I have to ask this: Is there anyone out there that has seen a pile of molton aluminum on the ground? Or ever even heard about an aluminum ladder "melting" at a scene? I've seen aluminum ladders that have had direct flame impingement and not had any issues during the event. Here's my take on aluminum which I would recommend every time.
While the numbers listed are factual...they do not tell the whole story in regard to aluminum and if explained by the experts who design and engineer aluminum ladders it becomes quickly apparent that the melting point argument has no validity when discussing the merits of the two. Fact is more steel ladders have failed then aluminum. I'm no metallurgist but the following makes sense to me and counteracts the entire "melting point" comment often passed by diehard steel aerial fans. The following is a link to a white paper on Aluminum Aerials by EOne. It addresses the melting point issue: Aerial White Paper
Its clearly points out that while aluminum does in fact have a lower melting point...it also transfers (conducts) heat 3.3 times faster then steel, as the cross structural material is 2 to 3 times thicker then its steel counterparts. Due to this greater conductivity and the thickness heat is conducted away from hot areas significantly faster then steel.
Oh yeah..here's another good fact about aluminum when it comes to heat. Aluminum's conductivity of heat improves as the temperature increases....steel...it decreases.
As far as EOne..a couple of points in regard to info on their aluminum ladders with their distnctive swirl. EOne aluminum aerials reflect heat at an extremely high rate and they boasts upwards of 93% to 95%. In comparison steel aerials because they are painted reflect very very little heat.

Nice post. I wanted to quote you so maybe some of the brothers would sit back for a minute, re-read what you said, and remember how they really all do work together at emergencies, aside from this "pillow for your gun" cr@p. It's a shame that cops and firefighters are taking shots at each other. The Fire Officer that started this thread got upset because he cares. If the job is under pressure in New Rochelle, it spills onto all of it's members, particularly those who care the most. I think that's the biggest thing that the general public doesn't understand about being a firefighter or a cop; the pressure. I used to ride around in the duty car and think about the thirty plus thousand people that lived in the district, the five thousand plus apartments, over eight thousand structures, and think to myself " well whatever is going to happen on this shift, it's going to be my responsibility." That's what I got paid for, and when the proverbial hit the fan that's exactly the way it was. And that pressure did take it's toll on my health. That's why I'm retired now.
The police officer that posted his status came back and explained what he meant. I think now, particularly during the holiday season, and with all of the economic pressures coming down on all the jobs, it might be a good time to remember that everyone, cops and firefighters, are really on the same team. I have to admit I read the status update in question the same way the Fire Officer from New Rochelle did. I thought it wasn't appropriate. But I do know what cops are forced to endure and how difficult that job is. I think back to the day Michael Frey was killed. I'm thinking about Pipi who died in his patrol car. I'm thinking about Fred, who endures his pain and busts his @ss rehabing after being run down by a truck. These men are giants in my eyes.
As far as the public is concerned listen; corporations are squeezing everything they can out of the private work force. Then these same people come home and get their tax bills. They aren't thinking that they might be the next victim that needs a cop or a firefighter; they're thinking fifteen grand for property taxes. They don't take the time to break it down; the County, the City, the District, the School, they are mad as h#ll and can't take it anymore. Not while their 401K has been destroyed and their plans and dreams for the future are in jeopardy.
Yes it's a sad state of affairs that we are all in as a country these days. But to all the brothers on the job; keep your heads held high as you deliver a VITAL AND NECESSARY SERVICE to your community, and stick together k. Merry Christmas.
Edit: to reflect the correct rank of the Brother from New Rochelle. God Bless.

So it seems that quite a few people in this thread have two goals. One is to have the public take fire, police and EMS more seriously and understand the hard work that it entails. The second goal is to "prove" how college is overrated and a waste. For one, from a PR standpoint, I don't think it's wise to try to gain public empathy while simultaneously bashing college...in an area of the country with a very high percentage of people holding undergraduate degrees.
Secondly, think about what you're doing when you bash higher education. When you get hurt in a fire, a doctor is going to help you (college degree + medical school and residency at least). What about the inventor of the various chemicals used in the fire service? Do you think a high school chemistry class was sufficient for that? What about the kevlar in bunker gear? Anyone here want to tell me how to make that? How about the tax code, the thing that is responsible for your salary as civil servants. Does anyone here truly understand the details of it? I am a volunteer firefighter and have respect for people who take the job on as a career. But firefighting and police are not the only two professions that exist. There are far more complicated (albeit less dangerous) jobs out there that require formal education. I do not suggest that college is perfect or even close to it. But to bash higher education "because it doesn't prepare you for the real world" is foolish.

After speaking to a civilian who witnessed this response from the start and in reading the Incident alert it seems like manpower was an issue at this fire. Initial dispatch was at 2200 and someone (the IC?) stated over the air that there was "limited manpower" at 2224??? I would think that 10pm on a Friday night would be one of the most likely times that volunteers would turn out. Is there an issue with having an adequate number of qualified personnel who can respond in a timely manner in this area? I'm particularly concerned because my Mom lives in this area.

Date: 12-18-09
Time: 2200hrs
Location: 26 Skytop Dr. c/s Springvale Rd.
Frequency: 46.26
Units Operating: MFD Cars 2271, 2272, 2274, E122, U68, Buchanan Car 2552, U12, Verplanck Cars 2491, 2493, E126, Croton Cars 2082, 2083, E119 w/FASTeam, Cortlandt VAC, New York State Police, Westchester County PD, Con Ed, Cortlandt Code Enforcement
Weather Conditions: Cold, clear
Description Of Incident: Working Fire
Reporters: Chris192
Writer: BFD1054, et al
2200hrs-Tri-Village tones transmitted; Reported chimney fire at 26 Skytop Dr. in Montrose. Buchanan & Verplanck on s/b
2202hrs-E122 responding.
2203hrs-Car 2272 responding.
2207hrs-E122 on scene, Car 2274 (Capt. Porter) transmitting the 10-75. Requesting additional engine on the road, if a Montrose engine has not signed on, request one from Buchanan. Also requesting Crotons FASTeam to the scene.
2208hrs-Car 2272 on scene, advising "fully involved" structure fire, checking if Buchanan's engine is on the road.
2209hrs-Car 2271 responding, inquiring if he should pick-up TL8.
2210hrs-CFD Car 2083 en-route. 60-Control re-toning; Verplanck to re-locate (1) engine to Montrose FD, Buchanan E161 to the scene, Crotons FASTeam to the scene, Cortlandt VAC to the scene.
2212hrs-BFD U12 responding. CFD Car 2082 on scene.
2213hrs-Car 2272 attempting to raise BFD E161. CFD Car 2083 relaying for Car 2272; BFD E161 requested to respond Crugers Station Rd. and into the scene (back side of Springvale).
2216hrs-Car 2271 inquiring if Buchanans engine is en-route. U12 en-route. (a lot of radio traffic, unknown to me if BFD has an engine on the road)
2218hrs-VFD E126 re-locating to MFD HQ.
2223hrs-VFD E126 out at MFD HQ.
2224hrs-VFD E126 now requested to the scene. E126 advising limited personnel.
2225hrs-60-Control advising VFD E126 is to respond in to supply Croton E119.
2229hrs-CFD Car 2082 requesting VFD E126 to locate a hydrant on Springvale Rd. and lay into E119.
2230hrs-City of Peekskill requested to re-locate (1) engine to Montrose FD HQ.
2232hrs-Cause & Origin Team Zone-4 paged out for response.
2248hrs-Car 2271 requesting Fire-Police to the scene.
2250hrs-Crotons Tanker (10) requested to the scene. Continental Village Tanker (11) also requested to the scene.
2255hrs-CFD T10 responding.
2256hrs-CVFD T11 responding.
2303hrs-Mohegan requested to re-locate (1) engine to Verplanck FD HQ.
2313hrs-CVFD Car 2133, T11 on scene.
2332hrs-Car 2271 requesting Cortlandt Code Enforcement to the scene.
2337hrs-60-Control advising Car 2271 that Cortlandt Code Enforcement has a 30 minute ETA.
2341hrs-Mohegan E255 out at Verplanck FD HQ for stand-by.
*At about this point, I went to bed.
**0345hrs-Tri-Village tones transmitted; possible structure fire at 250 Kings Ferry Rd in Verplanck. LMFD E255 (s/b engine) & MFD E123 responded.
VFD Car 2492 advised of a working fire in trailer #9, requesting E255 to stretch a line in.
***0830hrs-Buchanan FD requested to respond w/(1) engine & manpower back to 26 Skytop Dr for a smoke investigation. BFD E161 responded along with Montrose FD units.

Date: 12-19-09
Time: 1130hrs
Location: 3 Casperian Rd. c/s Root St.
Frequency: 46.26
Units Operating: LMFD, Peekskill FD w/FASTeam, PVFD w/manpower, BFD w/U12
Weather Conditions: cold
Description Of Incident: Working Fire
Reporters:
Writer: BFD1054
1137hrs-Car 2261 to 60-Control on a progress report: 75x30 ranch w/heavy fire throughout, also experiencing water problems (frozen & blocked hydrants), all-hands working.
1152hrs-Car 2261 requesting additional FASTeam, Peekskill going to work.
1200hrs-60-Control advising Car 2261 that Yorktowns FASTeam is en-route.
1202hrs-Car 2263 (interior) advising attack line of active fire on the C/D corner, #2 floor.
1222hrs-Car 2261 advising fire under control.
***1648hrs-E255, E257, L35 dispatched to above address for a possible fire; possible fire in the walls.
1652hrs-E257 and Car 2262 on location.
1653hrs-Car 2266 requesting a water can inside.
1655hrs-L35 on location.
1658hrs-E255 on location, Car 2262 directing E255 to go back in service.
1703hrs-Car 2262 placing the situation under control.
1714hrs-As per Car 2262, all units back in service.